Was Janeway a bit of a tyrant?

[AuntKate]

I'm not a fan of the post-TOS PD, but that's just silliness. Who is Janeway to decide what the Ocampa's natural evolution should be? And what about the Kazon? She just became their enemies and denied them access to a balance of power changing technology. TNG-era PD would say that's a no-no. Janeway seems to be adopting a sort of Kirk-like flexible TOS-era PD interpretation, which would be ok, EXCEPT that for other situations in Voyager she's a strict regulations enthusiast. It just shows that Janeway was written so inconsistently and that they didn't get a good handle on her character.

Does "natural evolution" include the exploitation of their world by a being from outside the galaxy? All she is doing to this area of space is removing an alien presence that has distorted both the Kazon and the Ocampa's existence.

And I think it is only natural for Janeway to take a more Kirk-like, case-by-case approach to the PD as she travels through the DQ. Sometimes inconsistency is what makes sense. As a parent, I've learned that I have to deal with each child as an individual--what works to help one child fails with another. Strange as it may sound, inconsistency can be more fair than a rigid approach.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I find sitting on children the best way to get correct behavior I want.

Sit and wait.

The Ocampa had been underground for a thousand years and Caretaker didn't care, or couldn't stop the Kazon occupation of the surface of... Caretaker was going to blow up his array, and in 5 years when the Ocampa ran out of water, they would burrow tot he surface and die. They might die faster if the forcefield gives out before their water, but that's 50/50, considering most of their water is replicated or recycled since they don't have underwater lakes to draw upon after a thousand years of living in the same place.

Caretaker planned that the Ocampa would have another 5 years of niceness and then they would die.

That was the status quo.

He had almost no effect on the Kazon.

Their reach extended perhaps 2 years or more at high warp in every direction from Ocmapa.

Compared to the vast empires screwing with them in every direction, banjoman was just one cranky bastard shaking his fist telling them to keep off his lawn impotently.

 

[sonak]

I'm not a fan of the post-TOS PD, but that's just silliness. Who is Janeway to decide what the Ocampa's natural evolution should be? And what about the Kazon? She just became their enemies and denied them access to a balance of power changing technology. TNG-era PD would say that's a no-no. Janeway seems to be adopting a sort of Kirk-like flexible TOS-era PD interpretation, which would be ok, EXCEPT that for other situations in Voyager she's a strict regulations enthusiast. It just shows that Janeway was written so inconsistently and that they didn't get a good handle on her character.

Does "natural evolution" include the exploitation of their world by a being from outside the galaxy? All she is doing to this area of space is removing an alien presence that has distorted both the Kazon and the Ocampa's existence.

And I think it is only natural for Janeway to take a more Kirk-like, case-by-case approach to the PD as she travels through the DQ. Sometimes inconsistency is what makes sense. As a parent, I've learned that I have to deal with each child as an individual--what works to help one child fails with another. Strange as it may sound, inconsistency can be more fair than a rigid approach.

I don't really think there IS such a thing as "natural evolution." Was an asteroid impacting Earth's evolution not a part of its "natural" evolution because it was an event caused by an "outside" object? We just have to do the best we can with the info we have, which is why the PD is stupid and makes no sense.

However, in the "caretaker" scenario, Janeway's responsibility was getting her crew back to the AQ, not getting involved in local politics.

 

[AuntKate]

I'm not a fan of the post-TOS PD, but that's just silliness. Who is Janeway to decide what the Ocampa's natural evolution should be? And what about the Kazon? She just became their enemies and denied them access to a balance of power changing technology. TNG-era PD would say that's a no-no. Janeway seems to be adopting a sort of Kirk-like flexible TOS-era PD interpretation, which would be ok, EXCEPT that for other situations in Voyager she's a strict regulations enthusiast. It just shows that Janeway was written so inconsistently and that they didn't get a good handle on her character.

Does "natural evolution" include the exploitation of their world by a being from outside the galaxy? All she is doing to this area of space is removing an alien presence that has distorted both the Kazon and the Ocampa's existence.

And I think it is only natural for Janeway to take a more Kirk-like, case-by-case approach to the PD as she travels through the DQ. Sometimes inconsistency is what makes sense. As a parent, I've learned that I have to deal with each child as an individual--what works to help one child fails with another. Strange as it may sound, inconsistency can be more fair than a rigid approach.

I don't really think there IS such a thing as "natural evolution." Was an asteroid impacting Earth's evolution not a part of its "natural" evolution because it was an event caused by an "outside" object? We just have to do the best we can with the info we have, which is why the PD is stupid and makes no sense.

However, in the "caretaker" scenario, Janeway's responsibility was getting her crew back to the AQ, not getting involved in local politics.

An outside non-sentient object is part of nature, whereas a sentient being can choose to act or not act. So I don't think we can equate the impact of an asteroid with the conscious action of a living, sentient being.

We can argree to disagree about what her responsibility was. The PD sometimes requires a SF crew to make a sacrifice . . .

 

[sonak]

Does "natural evolution" include the exploitation of their world by a being from outside the galaxy? All she is doing to this area of space is removing an alien presence that has distorted both the Kazon and the Ocampa's existence.

And I think it is only natural for Janeway to take a more Kirk-like, case-by-case approach to the PD as she travels through the DQ. Sometimes inconsistency is what makes sense. As a parent, I've learned that I have to deal with each child as an individual--what works to help one child fails with another. Strange as it may sound, inconsistency can be more fair than a rigid approach.

I don't really think there IS such a thing as "natural evolution." Was an asteroid impacting Earth's evolution not a part of its "natural" evolution because it was an event caused by an "outside" object? We just have to do the best we can with the info we have, which is why the PD is stupid and makes no sense.

However, in the "caretaker" scenario, Janeway's responsibility was getting her crew back to the AQ, not getting involved in local politics.

An outside non-sentient object is part of nature, whereas a sentient being can choose to act or not act. So I don't think we can equate the impact of an asteroid with the conscious action of a living, sentient being.

We can argree to disagree about what her responsibility was. The PD sometimes requires a SF crew to make a sacrifice . . .

sentient beings are a part of nature.


So you're saying now, not only was it NOT a violation of the PD, but that Janeway was required BY the PD to do what she did? Interesting.


(remember though, that the Maquis weren't under the PD, so they'd still feel some resentment)

 

[AuntKate]

They are part of nature, but they have freedom of choice.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Caretaker had been part of local politics for the last thousand years, but you see him as an external factor?

By that reckoning, if Janeway was to show up on Earth today and a couple native American Indians where to ask her to smash whitey who was overrunning their country she'd be all up for it? Removing a foreign alien influence disaffecting the proper land lords of America?

Ditto with the English in Ireland.

Ditto with whitey in Australia.

And goodness knows who she would side with over Jerusalem because Kathryn wouldn't be phased by who had the oldest if not cutest claim to the Holyland that her sense of righteousness can justly ply apart thousands of years of rebuilding their homes on the bones of the recently murdered?

Caretaker was part of the local politics just like the Romulans were in charge of Reeman space, of the Cardasssians were allowed to occupy Bajor because after 50 years the status quo had been accepted as just something that is, because the first movements originated before most of the current players were born.

 

[AuntKate]

Where women are concerned is something I don't know about. The blowing-up of the array was probably a women thing.

Ouch. I guess it's too late for you to edit this.

 

[Gov Kodos]

If the Prime Directive is a concern, should the Federation apply it to itself. In the case of Arturis and his slip stream drive, which is much more advanced than Federation technology. (Assuming it were given in full honesty, rather than as in the show) shouldn't they refuse the technology as it would upset their normal development as a civilization? Why is it acceptable for the Federation and Star Fleet to acquire advanced technology, but deny it to others?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway said that the Prime Directive applied in Prototype.

AI utilizing a technology generations ahead of Starfleet that was pwning Voyager.

Of course the Prime Directive goes both ways, applying to more advanced races screwing the federation over. Being nice to the younger races is about the best way to prove to the older races that you're too nice to be fucked over for no reason.

Although even if a world is more technologically advanced, Janeway can still contaminate them with culture and philosophy, like in the case of A Piece of the Action. Look what one book did. I mean Janeway would never just hand over an entire book like that and walk away never considering the consequences of her actions.

Besides Kodos, if you're talking about keeping the Array out of the Kazons hands in the pilot, the Prime Directive said that the Kazon were supposed to get it, Tuvok says that on camera, and breaking the Prime Directive was to stop the Kazon getting the Array, which is still what Tuvok said but a little more clearer, is bad and criminal and wrong. It is the natural development of the Kazon to take advantage of valuable salvage, and Janeway broke her own laws to stop them, to cancel Christmas, because she didn't like the possibility or what she thought that they might do with that technology maybe. She didn't like the consequence of herself doing nothing, as in what would have happened regardless if she wasn't there... if she was really concerned with the Kazon murdering and enslaving little cow species, then she should have killed them all. Her half measure was insulting to every one else in the quadrant being oppressed by the Kazon who Janeway left in chains, including her own crew two years later.

The only way that Janeways decision made sense was if she was severing all bonds with the Federation and aligning herself with some hypothetical quasigreatergood manifestation of the Delta Quadrant inhabitants of which she was it's chief moral arbitrator... Because that's what "being involved" in local politics means, when you have no damn idea what the local politics are, rather being a disinterested foreign interest who doesn't believe they want to be responsible for idiots acting idiotically and every one else paying the cost.

Ijust want you all to remember that Janeway said that she had NEVER broken the prime directive in Equinox, but later...

KASHYK: Are you sure you'll be welcome when you do? I came across something else in your database. The Prime Directive.
JANEWAY: The Federation's cardinal protocol.
KASHYK: It seems you violated it when you rescued these telepaths.
JANEWAY: Well, let's just say I usually go with my instincts and sort it out later at the Board of Inquiry. Those Admirals and I were on a first name basis, you know. You're risking a lot, too. Why?

She's saying that she's above the law because she knows people.

And really, if the Prime Directive applies to the Devore Imperium, a race on par with the Federation, at least in terms of technology, then it applies to everyone.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

If the Prime Directive is a concern, should the Federation apply it to itself. In the case of Arturis and his slip stream drive, which is much more advanced than Federation technology. (Assuming it were given in full honesty, rather than as in the show) shouldn't they refuse the technology as it would upset their normal development as a civilization? Why is it acceptable for the Federation and Star Fleet to acquire advanced technology, but deny it to others?

Originally it seemed to only apply to pre warp civilizations.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Which is no longer the case, and retroactively never was the case.

"You are a cog that thinks it is the machine."

 

[Gov Kodos]

Janeway said that the Prime Directive applied in Prototype.

AI utilizing a technology generations ahead of Starfleet that was pwning Voyager.

Of course the Prime Directive goes both ways, applying to more advanced races screwing the federation over. Being nice to the younger races is about the best way to prove to the older races that you're too nice to be fucked over for no reason.

Although even if a world is more technologically advanced, Janeway can still contaminate them with culture and philosophy, like in the case of A Piece of the Action. Look what one book did. I mean Janeway would never just hand over an entire book like that and walk away never considering the consequences of her actions.

Besides Kodos, if you're talking about keeping the Array out of the Kazons hands in the pilot, the Prime Directive said that the Kazon were supposed to get it, Tuvok says that on camera, and breaking the Prime Directive was to stop the Kazon getting the Array, which is still what Tuvok said but a little more clearer, is bad and criminal and wrong. It is the natural development of the Kazon to take advantage of valuable salvage, and Janeway broke her own laws to stop them, to cancel Christmas, because she didn't like the possibility or what she thought that they might do with that technology maybe. She didn't like the consequence of herself doing nothing, as in what would have happened regardless if she wasn't there... if she was really concerned with the Kazon murdering and enslaving little cow species, then she should have killed them all. Her half measure was insulting to every one else in the quadrant being oppressed by the Kazon who Janeway left in chains, including her own crew two years later.

The only way that Janeways decision made sense was if she was severing all bonds with the Federation and aligning herself with some hypothetical quasigreatergood manifestation of the Delta Quadrant inhabitants of which she was it's chief moral arbitrator... Because that's what "being involved" in local politics means, when you have no damn idea what the local politics are, rather being a disinterested foreign interest who doesn't believe they want to be responsible for idiots acting idiotically and every one else paying the cost.

Ijust want you all to remember that Janeway said that she had NEVER broken the prime directive in Equinox, but later...

KASHYK: Are you sure you'll be welcome when you do? I came across something else in your database. The Prime Directive.
JANEWAY: The Federation's cardinal protocol.
KASHYK: It seems you violated it when you rescued these telepaths.
JANEWAY: Well, let's just say I usually go with my instincts and sort it out later at the Board of Inquiry. Those Admirals and I were on a first name basis, you know. You're risking a lot, too. Why?

She's saying that she's above the law because she knows people.

And really, if the Prime Directive applies to the Devore Imperium, a race on par with the Federation, at least in terms of technology, then it applies to everyone.

Interesting, but didn't the Caretaker tell Janeway he didn't want it to fall into Kazon hands? I honestly don't recall the episode all that well. Either way, I'd still say that once he died and Voyager was in possession, if not control, she'd be free to dispose of the technology at will as she would possess it as a piece of salvage itself after the Caretaker's death.

 

[Guy Gardener]

(No worries. )

Caretaker wanted a son to caretake the Ocampa after he died because only his son could possibly understand the responsibility of that duty. Which makes me wonder if Willy Wonka was really secretly Charlie's father in either movie with either of Charlie's mothers. So Banjoman dragged different aliens from every corner of the galaxy to see if he could rape any of them without their dying. He spent months raping all sorts of aliens to death including Ransom's human crew 6 months before Janeway's mostly human crew, which shows exactly how scientific the approach Caretaker was taking toward finding a mate... That he seemed to have forgotten that humans were already incompatible with his semen while he was raping Harry to death.

THAT is who we are dealing with.

You can blame it on the dementia, but really, seriously, really, not a nice bloke.

So.

Janeway tries to board the array.

The Kazon tell her to bugger off.

There's a fight.

Voyager and the Val Jean vs. One Kazon City ship and two Kazon Shuttles.

The Kazon found out about transporters perhaps 20 minutes earlier, so they can be forgiven for not realizing that Janeway is already on Board the array while they're desperately trying to stop Voyager from docking, claiming the array and dominating this sector with all their impressive technology and putting the Kazon under boot just like the Trabe did for centuries.

During the fight, the Array's self destruct device is rendered malfunctional which soils the best laid plans of a complete idiot to live as long as can and then have his home blow up, so that he doesn't lose a second of his life to suicide that couldn't be spent raping aliens. His house didn't go boom and that worries him. Every idiot knows that you need contingency.

It is Caretakers belief that after the Kazon take the Array, and after they master replicator technology (among other innovations.) that they will steal the Ocampa's water and that these Elves will die of thirst. Cause and effect. He only believes that the Ocampa will suffer as collateral damage because they have an invaluable resource that the Kazon cannot live without... Even though the Kazon will now have replicators which will make water almost valueless. Really, giving the Array to the Kazon would make the Ocampa's water far safer than not.

On his death bed, with this spurious logic in mind, Caretaker asks that Janeway looks after the Ocampa for him, or destroy the array since he can't do either any longer.

Kathryn says no to both like a good Starfleet officer, but changes her mind less than 5 minutes later because she's such a flighty thing.

Back to the point you were actually interested in...

Caretakers is dead but Salvage rules don't apply until the Array is empty.

l would say that, since Janeway refused to caretake the Ocampa, that the Array was not willed to her like it would have been if she had accepted the job, and the fight out side meant that the ownership through salvage was in contest, and salvage wouldn't apply till Janeway, or Jabin left, gave up their claim... Although salvage on Earth only applies to shit left in international waters in-between countries, and frankly where all this was happening was Kazon Controlled Space, which means that it was their job, the Kazon, as the legal authorities, to decide the fate of the Array after caretakers death, baring any will or testament from the Caretaker, not that Caretaker wasn't a criminal they wanted to send to Kazon jail for all that rape, which again would see his property impounded by the Kazon authorities.

Does that help?

 

[lurok]

Just started rewatching BSG (well, there's nothing else on) and Janeway's a pussycat next to Roslin. Makes you wonder where RDM might have taken her if he'd got hold of VOY reins.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Chakotay's quarters.

 

[Gov Kodos]

(No worries. )

Caretaker wanted a son to caretake the Ocampa after he died because only his son could possibly understand the responsibility of that duty. Which makes me wonder if Willy Wonka was really secretly Charlie's father in either movie with either of Charlie's mothers. So Banjoman dragged different aliens from every corner of the galaxy to see if he could rape any of them without their dying. He spent months raping all sorts of aliens to death including Ransom's human crew 6 months before Janeway's mostly human crew, which shows exactly how scientific the approach Caretaker was taking toward finding a mate... That he seemed to have forgotten that humans were already incompatible with his semen while he was raping Harry to death.

THAT is who we are dealing with.

You can blame it on the dementia, but really, seriously, really, not a nice bloke.

So.

Janeway tries to board the array.

The Kazon tell her to bugger off.

There's a fight.

Voyager and the Val Jean vs. One Kazon City ship and two Kazon Shuttles.

The Kazon found out about transporters perhaps 20 minutes earlier, so they can be forgiven for not realizing that Janeway is already on Board the array while they're desperately trying to stop Voyager from docking, claiming the array and dominating this sector with all their impressive technology and putting the Kazon under boot just like the Trabe did for centuries.

During the fight, the Array's self destruct device is rendered malfunctional which soils the best laid plans of a complete idiot to live as long as can and then have his home blow up, so that he doesn't lose a second of his life to suicide that couldn't be spent raping aliens. His house didn't go boom and that worries him. Every idiot knows that you need contingency.

It is Caretakers belief that after the Kazon take the Array, and after they master replicator technology (among other innovations.) that they will steal the Ocampa's water and that these Elves will die of thirst. Cause and effect. He only believes that the Ocampa will suffer as collateral damage because they have an invaluable resource that the Kazon cannot live without... Even though the Kazon will now have replicators which will make water almost valueless. Really, giving the Array to the Kazon would make the Ocampa's water far safer than not.

On his death bed, with this spurious logic in mind, Caretaker asks that Janeway looks after the Ocampa for him, or destroy the array since he can't do either any longer.

Kathryn says no to both like a good Starfleet officer, but changes her mind less than 5 minutes later because she's such a flighty thing.

Back to the point you were actually interested in...

Caretakers is dead but Salvage rules don't apply until the Array is empty.

l would say that, since Janeway refused to caretake the Ocampa, that the Array was not willed to her like it would have been if she had accepted the job, and the fight out side meant that the ownership through salvage was in contest, and salvage wouldn't apply till Janeway, or Jabin left, gave up their claim... Although salvage on Earth only applies to shit left in international waters in-between countries, and frankly where all this was happening was Kazon Controlled Space, which means that it was their job, the Kazon, as the legal authorities, to decide the fate of the Array after caretakers death, baring any will or testament from the Caretaker, not that Caretaker wasn't a criminal they wanted to send to Kazon jail for all that rape, which again would see his property impounded by the Kazon authorities.

Does that help?

It makes sense, but as the Federation has no treaties with the Kazon, Janeway can argue that she doesn't have to recognize the space as Kazon since there are no mutually recognized boarders to establish which space is controlled or not. There is the Kazon claim, but that is as far as it goes. I think Janeway has sufficient space to argue her case through the extraordinary situation that her ship was in. And I just don't care about the TNG era PD for reasons I mentioned earlier.

 

[Guy Gardener]

PARIS: Why would anyone want to live in a place like this?
NEELIX: The rich cormaline deposits are very much in demand.
CHAKOTAY: The Ocampa use it for barter?

from the very beginning...

NEELIX: Not the Ocampa, the Kazon-Ogla.
JANEWAY: The Kazon-Ogla? Who are the Kazon-Ogla?
NEELIX: They are. Kazon sects control this part of the quadrant. Some have food, some have ore, some have water. They all trade and they all kill each other for it.
JANEWAY: I thought you said the Ocampa had our people.
NEELIX: My friends, it's good to see you again!

Janeway's guide and ally, who she trusts for some reason, just said that the kazon control most of 1/4 of the galaxy.

but you've actually got it backwards.

A treaty sets down rules of conduct and interaction, note the episode where Harry gets a glowing STD, with how the federation is allowed to share information and technology. known quantities to the federation can be treated as the assholes or angels they are and not be given such a benefit of the doubt over any misunderstandings, cultural or otherwise.

from TNG First Contact.

DURKEN: You speak the language of diplomacy very well, Captain. It is a language I appreciate and understand, but I have learned to not always trust it.
PICARD: Trust requires time and experience.
DURKEN: My world's history has recorded that conquerors often arrived with the words, we are your friends.
PICARD: We are not here as conquerors, Chancellor.
DURKEN: What do you want?
PICARD: A beginning. But how we proceed is entirely up to you.
DURKEN: And if my wishes should conflict with yours?
PICARD: There'll be no conflict.
DURKEN: And if I should tell you to leave and never return to my world?
PICARD: We will leave and never return. Chancellor, we are here only to help guide you into a new era. I can assure you we will not interfere in the natural development of your planet. That is, in fact, our Prime Directive.
DURKEN: I can infer from that directive that you do not intend to share all this exceptional technology with us.
PICARD: That is not the whole meaning, but it is part of it.

The only thing Janeway knew for sure is that these Kazon were willing to kill or die to DEFEND what they insisted was theirs, and frankly she never hinted that she thought otherwise, that she was in the heart of kazon space, surrounded by thousands of Kazon ships and trillions of kazon warriors.

 

[Sindatur]

Guy, take a closer look at your bolded section.

Kazon sects control this part of the quadrant.

This part of the Quadrant could be any size you want it to be. Could be 1 light year in each direction, or 100,000+ LY in each direction.

 

[Guy Gardener]

how small is "part" of the quarter of the galaxy, compared to 'part" of the sector.

Sure part of the quarter of the galaxy is exactly the same size as "part" of sector.

How many sectors in a quadrant? (6 and a quarter million according to wikipedia which claims that a sector is 20 LY cubed)

Not many, I suppose since Sisko once said that Odo was the best law man in the Sector.

The point I was trying to make is that Neelix was inexact and so unintentionally vague that Janeway might have made incorrect conclusions after listening to the words coming out of his fluffy yap.

I assume that you own a house in Sacramento?

So, you own part of Sacramento.

So you own part of California.

So you own part of America.

So you own part of the Earth.

So you own part of the Solar System.

So you own part of the sector.

So you own part of the Quadrant.

Hey.

Everyone.

Did you know that Sindatur owns part of the Quadrant?

Does that seem like I am saying that you own a quarter acre section, or half a million solar systems?