Steering close to Godwin territory here, methinks.
Was Hitler actually evil?
- Thread starter crookeddy
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Hitler also supposedly had a terrible problem with flatulence.A side effect of a vegetarian diet.
So... this whole "gas chamber" thing may have been a terrible misunderstanding...
Nah. Sort of hard to Godwin a thread that's all about Hitler.
Perhaps an anti-Godwin rule should apply then.
It's so weird reading your posts in this thread... The Great Mambo Chicken was a previous username of The God Thing, who holds markedly different opinions about the Nazis and their deeds.
Eek, I am not worthy of being mistaken for TGT.
Depends on what kind of sauce they use.
So is this Malawi story evil?
As Idi Amin would ask, why can't they just marry multiple wives and kill half of them like a normal person?
As Idi Amin would ask, why can't they just marry multiple wives and kill half of them like a normal person?
teh geys! teh geys!
I think that that's an entirely separate issue from whether or not Hitler can be fairly categorized as "evil." And I reject wholeheartedly the notion that being willing to call a monster evil is the same thing as abdicating our moral responsibility to understand why a person could become so evil as to do the things he did, and how to make certain we avoid such choices ourselves.
But by any reasonable standard, it remains that Hitler was evil. There's simply no way to morally evaluate him without characterizing him that way by any reasonable moral standard.
But following that up is the fact that so many Germans supported his actions whole heartedly. He and many of his minions and followers died before they could renounce their evil philosophy (although many of the hard-core Nazis would never recant, such as Martin Heidegger).
Hitler was the alpha-male in a pack of very bad actors. Personally he was probably never as bad as Saddam, in that Hitler was surrounded by a country of worshippers whereas Saddam, who also created a psychopathic philosophical/political system, was just downright feared, even by his generals, because he delighted in killing those close to him - personally. He learned that trick from Stalin, who was likewise messed up in the head.
Hitler rarely displayed that particular personal pathology, the possible exception being his elimination of the Brown shirts, but that purge might have been due to a perception of disloyalty to the state. Then again, the German loyalty to him may have kept his paranoia in check to a greater degree than occured in Iraq or the Soviet Union.
Some of the behaviors all of these leaders exhibited has been seen throughout history, especially among royals who killed their brothers, purged various social groups (especially the underclass), and ended up being known as ____ the bad or ____ the terrible.
One of the differences that made Nazism go the extra mile into evil cranked up to 11 is the Marxist origins and the revisions to Marxist origins, Marxism itself being part of the socialist revolutionary movement kicked off by the French. The evil idea that the world could be made a better place if you just kill off the social classes who deserve it, then kill off the social classes that are impeding progress, then kill off the social classes who are just going to be dead weight.
The idea that people exist to serve the state, that they are a resource like a crop, that they can be bred in groups, punished and rewarded in groups, and executed in groups, and that only such actions will create social progress: That is the evil innovation that made Hitler so infamous, like Robespierre and others who put a grander, vastly more evil twist to the earlier, more common evil of monarchs whose evil schemes and worldview couldn't extend far beyond their claim to the throne and a claim to a bigger throne if they could topple the neighboring monarch, serfs be damned.
Hitler was the alpha-male in a pack of very bad actors. Personally he was probably never as bad as Saddam, in that Hitler was surrounded by a country of worshippers whereas Saddam, who also created a psychopathic philosophical/political system, was just downright feared, even by his generals, because he delighted in killing those close to him - personally. He learned that trick from Stalin, who was likewise messed up in the head.
Hitler rarely displayed that particular personal pathology, the possible exception being his elimination of the Brown shirts, but that purge might have been due to a perception of disloyalty to the state. Then again, the German loyalty to him may have kept his paranoia in check to a greater degree than occured in Iraq or the Soviet Union.
Some of the behaviors all of these leaders exhibited has been seen throughout history, especially among royals who killed their brothers, purged various social groups (especially the underclass), and ended up being known as ____ the bad or ____ the terrible.
One of the differences that made Nazism go the extra mile into evil cranked up to 11 is the Marxist origins and the revisions to Marxist origins, Marxism itself being part of the socialist revolutionary movement kicked off by the French. The evil idea that the world could be made a better place if you just kill off the social classes who deserve it, then kill off the social classes that are impeding progress, then kill off the social classes who are just going to be dead weight.
The idea that people exist to serve the state, that they are a resource like a crop, that they can be bred in groups, punished and rewarded in groups, and executed in groups, and that only such actions will create social progress: That is the evil innovation that made Hitler so infamous, like Robespierre and others who put a grander, vastly more evil twist to the earlier, more common evil of monarchs whose evil schemes and worldview couldn't extend far beyond their claim to the throne and a claim to a bigger throne if they could topple the neighboring monarch, serfs be damned.
Only the version with the alternative ending where the death star from Star Wars surprisingly appears and blows up Pandora.
Well, I'm not much of a dog person. So, advantage: Hitler.
If there are moral absolutes they should be consistently applied. Was it evil for Britain to force India to join World War II on its side? For Britain and France to not grant independence to India and Vietnam, Algeria long after the people there wanted it? To have a death penalty that we know is fallible?
From Saving Private Ryan, to not shoot enemy troops and so make them die a longer, more painful death?
While some acts are so extreme evil is an appropriate descriptor, I can condemn policies and actions without calling them evil because its hard to know how you would act in the situation and motivation matters.
From Saving Private Ryan, to not shoot enemy troops and so make them die a longer, more painful death?
While some acts are so extreme evil is an appropriate descriptor, I can condemn policies and actions without calling them evil because its hard to know how you would act in the situation and motivation matters.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.
Just found this discussion.
As many of you have pointed out, "evil" is a nebulous concept.
Philip Van Rindt wrote a fictional drama where a elderly Adolph Hitler came forward and was put on trial for war crimes (a little more definitive than evil).
The prosecution had to try to find cases where Hitler had personally ordered the deaths. While fictional, the story dealt with some real events and some real legal issues.
Personally, I do believe that what Hitler did was evil, but we turn a blind eye to many other cases of evil.
The 6 million Jews who died should not be forgotten.
There is also the American Holocaust.where an estimated 10 million to 114 million Native Americans died since the Europeans came the new world. At one time, the government paid for Native scalps and germ warfare was used.
Sounds evil to me.
Ancient history? How about Guantanamo Bay at present time?
Evil violations at Guantanamo Bay include:
- jailing of children
- torture
- no representation for detainees
- held without any charges like one person held 6 years before a trial
These actions are in violation of international laws signed by the US.
In 9/11, 2001, 2,985 people died. The terrorists were definitely evil.
In 2001, 42,116 people died in car crashes. Are car makers evil?
In 2007, 45.7 million Americans (about 15%) had no health care coverage. Sounds like some growing evil there.
We should learn from the evil of the past and make sure we don't let the evil of the present go unchallenged.
As many of you have pointed out, "evil" is a nebulous concept.
Philip Van Rindt wrote a fictional drama where a elderly Adolph Hitler came forward and was put on trial for war crimes (a little more definitive than evil).
The prosecution had to try to find cases where Hitler had personally ordered the deaths. While fictional, the story dealt with some real events and some real legal issues.
Personally, I do believe that what Hitler did was evil, but we turn a blind eye to many other cases of evil.
The 6 million Jews who died should not be forgotten.
There is also the American Holocaust.where an estimated 10 million to 114 million Native Americans died since the Europeans came the new world. At one time, the government paid for Native scalps and germ warfare was used.
Sounds evil to me.
Ancient history? How about Guantanamo Bay at present time?
Evil violations at Guantanamo Bay include:
- jailing of children
- torture
- no representation for detainees
- held without any charges like one person held 6 years before a trial
These actions are in violation of international laws signed by the US.
In 9/11, 2001, 2,985 people died. The terrorists were definitely evil.
In 2001, 42,116 people died in car crashes. Are car makers evil?
In 2007, 45.7 million Americans (about 15%) had no health care coverage. Sounds like some growing evil there.
We should learn from the evil of the past and make sure we don't let the evil of the present go unchallenged.
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