Was "Enterprise" Federation Revisionist History?

[Ithekro]

The Roman second class citizen model where service to the Empire can grant one and one's family full citizenship as if you were from Rome.

 

[Tenacity]

Kirk didn't mean that the Valiant only had old impulse engines.

My question would be, why not use the Warp engines? If you're in a storm relying on impulse seems unwise.

During TMP, when the Enterprise was caught in the wormhole effect at warp speed, Kirk ordered full impulse to slow the ship to sub-light speed, to escape the effect.

When the Valiant was caught in the magnetic storm (at warp speed?), perhaps only impulse engines could have gotten the ship out. But they were too weak.

 

[Nerys Myk]

During TMP, when the Enterprise was caught in the wormhole effect at warp speed, Kirk ordered full impulse to slow the ship to sub-light speed, to escape the effect.

When the Valiant was caught in the magnetic storm (at warp speed?), perhaps only impulse engines could have gotten the ship out. But they were too weak.

Kirk's an idiot through much of the first half of the film, I'm not sure I'd go by his actions.

Context tells me that the Valiant ran on impulse power. The Romulan ship in "Balance of Terror" also ran on "simple impulse". It was capable of traveling from star to star. From WNMHGB and BOT one can conclude that impulse engines can achieve low warp speeds. Shuttlecraft might also be equipped with "low warp" impulse engines.

 

[Vger23]

Kirk's an idiot through much of the first half of the film, I'm not sure I'd go by his actions.

Context tells me that the Valiant ran on impulse power. The Romulan ship in "Balance of Terror" also ran on "simple impulse". It was capable of traveling from star to star. From WNMHGB and BOT one can conclude that impulse engines can achieve low warp speeds. Shuttlecraft might also be equipped with "low warp" impulse engines.

There could very well be a difference between "impulse engines" and "impulse power".

I'd argue strongly though, that "impulse engines" cannot achieve warp speed. Warp drive has nothing to do with thrust. Impulse engines are basically just giant, powerful rockets for sublight functioning.

Perhaps power from the impulse drive can be used to generate weaker warp fields throught the warp nacelles if the antimatter reactor is offline, but there's no way impulse engines (essentially rockets) get them to warp. This could also apply to the Romulan ship as well, simply meaning that their power was not anti-matter driven. Again, there is a difference between "impulse engines" and "impulse power." The Romulan warp drive was not driven by anti-matter power in the TNG era, so it's logical to suppose it wasn't in the TOS era either.

I'm inclined to agree with what Tenacity said. The magnetic storm the Valiant encountered likely negated their ability to cleanly generate a warp field, and the old style impulse engines weren't strong enough to combat the storm.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There could very well be a difference between "impulse engines" and "impulse power".

Could be, but is there any thing that says that? Impulse usually means slower than warp.

I'd argue strongly though, that "impulse engines" cannot achieve warp speed. Warp drive has nothing to do with thrust. Impulse engines are basically just giant, powerful rockets for sublight functioning.

They're what ever the writers need them to be, In BOT, they need them to be slower than the Enterprise. In WNMHGB, they need something more primitive than Warp.

Perhaps power from the impulse drive can be used to generate weaker warp fields throught the warp nacelles if the antimatter reactor is offline, but there's no way impulse engines (essentially rockets) get them to warp.

Do we really know they're just rockets? Or is that fan speculation? I'm not really Treknical type, so I've no idea

I'm inclined to agree with what Tenacity said. The magnetic storm the Valiant encountered likely negated their ability to cleanly generate a warp field, and the old style impulse engines weren't strong enough to combat the storm.

That's probably retrofitting the dialog to fit your needs. To fit current ideas about Warp and Impulse. For me the writer's idea is pretty clear, impulse is a slower FTL drive.

 

[Ithekro]

The basic problem with the idea that Impulse power (being all that Valiant and the Romulans in TOS have) being slower that FTL speeds is that it would be illogical for either to be anywhere outside their home solar systems as if they are going on a cruise rather than a one way trip someplace specific. Valiant was doing exploration work from what I recall, and it seems unlikely she's head out at sublight speed if she wasn't specifically going to a star near Sol. Similarly the Romulans wouldn't be able to enact an interstellar war with Earth with sublight drives only if Earth has warp drives and can just leave the system. The Romulan Bird of Prey should not be able to go out and test Earth's outposts realistically without some form of FTL travel. Even if Enterprise is faster, the Romulas would still need an FTL drive to get from one Earth Outpost to another in the time Enterprise is on the approach at warp speed.

In Enterprise, at least, the Romulans have some form of FTL capability.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Which is why I suggest Impulse might be a primitive FLT drive and not rockets.

 

[Vger23]

Some iteresting stuff here, including an acknowledgment of the complications associated with his very discussion!

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Impulse_drive

 

[Tuskin38]

The Romulan ship in "Balance of Terror" also ran on "simple impulse".

Or, their warp drive was offline/disabled because of how much power the cloak used, spock couldn't detect it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Or, their warp drive was offline/disabled because of how much power the cloak used, spock couldn't detect it.

I would hope they could spot a warp drive system even if offline.

 

[Tenacity]

In Kirk's voice over at the beginning of WNMHGB, there's this ...

The impossible has happened.

From directly ahead, we're picking up a recorded distress signal, the call letters of a vessel which has been missing for over two centuries.

Did another Earth ship once probe out of the galaxy as we intend to do?

So which did Kirk find "impossible?"

That they found a ship missing for over two centuries?

Or.

That a ship from two centuries old got that far from Earth?

In his voice over Kirk is thinking that the ship could have been where it was in order to "probe out of the galaxy," it was there to do something deliberately, to carry out a task.

Kirk 's voice over doesn't mention anything about the ship couldn't have gotten out here on it's own, it didn't travel there voluntarily .

If the only way the ship could have gotten where it was was through an unusual event, why would Kirk even consider that it was there to "probe outside the galaxy?"

Kirk doesn't seem to be completely dismissing that the ship was purposely traveling to a destination. Which could imply that Kirk (professional starship guy) considered it possible with two hundred year old technology, a early starship could do it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think Kirk might think all those are the impossible. He has no data at that point. He doesn't know why the ship is there. Nor does he mention any knowledge of a ship assigned to do what the Enterprise is about to attempt. If fact by saying

Did another Earth ship once probe out of the galaxy as we intend to do

we can be sure no record of the Valiant being assigned this task exists in the database. The recorder provides more data

SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction.
KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough.
SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here. I'm not getting it all. The tapes are pretty badly burned. Sounds like the ship had encountered some unknown force. Now, orders, counter orders, repeated urgent requests for information from the ship's computer records for anything concerning ESP in human beings.

From this we ( and Kirk) discover the Valiant is there by accident. Swept in that direction by the storm and then out of the Galaxy. They head back and then disaster strikes.

The Enterprise suffers a similar fate.

Captain's log, Star date 1312.9. Ship's condition, heading back on impulse power only. Main engines burned out. The ship's space warp ability gone. Earth bases which were only days away are now years in the distance. Our overriding question now is what destroyed the Valiant? They lived through the barrier, just as we have. What happened to them after that?

Interesting to note that the ship is now running on impulse. And that Earth bases are only days away from the Galactic edge under Warp and years away under impulse. Not centuries or decades, but years.
And that Delta Vega is

...a planet a few light days away from here. Delta Vega. It has a lithium cracking station. We may be able to adapt some of its power packs to our engines.
KIRK: And if we can't? We'll be trapped in orbit there. We haven't enough power to blast back out.

So neither the Enterprise nor the Valiant are the first Earth/Federation ships out that way.

 

[uniderth]

An interesting point to consider. Assuming the magnetic storm was a natural phenomenon it was probably not going faster than the speed of light. Lets say it was going at half the speed of light. That means the Valiant would have been stuck in the storm for one year while they were swept half a light year past the galaxy edge. If the storm was slower it would have taken even longer.

 

[Ithekro]

Unless Ion storms are similar to whatever it was that caused the Bajoran solar sailors to arrive at Cardassia (Like Sisko did), or like the explosion wave from Praxis or I don't know, the Galaxy disrupting supernova that killed Romulas, than maybe it could have FTL speeds. Or the Nexus, which must have FTL speeds to get from system to system.