Was Dukat really evil?
- Thread starter Inactive-Shapeshifter
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Good and evil are philosophical vessels universal to all species but different cultures fill them with their views, traditions, customs, and individual deeds. Wars and other force majeure circumstances cause drastic shifts in the intrinsic content that a given culture has originally invested in these notions.
As far as the application of power is concerned, Cardassian societal structure tolerates more forceful approach and severe punishments than the democratic systems because they are basically a totalitarian society with militaristic ethos. Their own citizens don’t have civil rights such as freedom of speech or freedom of assembly. In this sense, it can’t be expected that the subjugated population will enjoy a better treatment.
Dukat did not deny that killings took place during the occupation but he did not consider them deliberate acts of murder. His views on justice are the imperial ones – punish the bad behavior and reward the good one. From his point of view, the dead civilians are collateral damages whereas the Resistance fighters and their supporters are unlawful combatants and terrorists sentenced to execution by a fire squad or sent to the mines. This, though outrageous from Federation point of view, is the typical totalitarian way of handling mutineers.
What wonders me is that in “Life Support” episode when the peace treaty between Bajor and Cardassia was negotiated and signed, Sisko was there at the table mediating the discussion. The Bajoran party never discussed the number of the civilians killed or any form of moral compensation at least, they discussed war reparations and the binding principles of their payment. However, Kira and Sisko kept repeating the refrain of the Cardassian cruelties. Why did the Bajorans and Sisko as a representative of the Federation accept a peace treaty that obviously did not solve the matter for them? If they did not like it, they should not have signed it.
As far as the application of power is concerned, Cardassian societal structure tolerates more forceful approach and severe punishments than the democratic systems because they are basically a totalitarian society with militaristic ethos. Their own citizens don’t have civil rights such as freedom of speech or freedom of assembly. In this sense, it can’t be expected that the subjugated population will enjoy a better treatment.
Dukat did not deny that killings took place during the occupation but he did not consider them deliberate acts of murder. His views on justice are the imperial ones – punish the bad behavior and reward the good one. From his point of view, the dead civilians are collateral damages whereas the Resistance fighters and their supporters are unlawful combatants and terrorists sentenced to execution by a fire squad or sent to the mines. This, though outrageous from Federation point of view, is the typical totalitarian way of handling mutineers.
What wonders me is that in “Life Support” episode when the peace treaty between Bajor and Cardassia was negotiated and signed, Sisko was there at the table mediating the discussion. The Bajoran party never discussed the number of the civilians killed or any form of moral compensation at least, they discussed war reparations and the binding principles of their payment. However, Kira and Sisko kept repeating the refrain of the Cardassian cruelties. Why did the Bajorans and Sisko as a representative of the Federation accept a peace treaty that obviously did not solve the matter for them? If they did not like it, they should not have signed it.
I think saying Dukat is not really evil due to cultural differences between the Federation and Cardassia misses a key point: the Cardassian culture is the way it is because it is controlled an immoral and oppressive government, that defines the culture and has no real moral legitimacy, Cardassian culture likely changed a lot after the Dominion War.
When the Nazis took over Germany, they created a lot of cultural differences between Germany and the rest of the Europe, but this new culture was just a self serving creation of the Nazis and did nothing to legitimize their crimes after the war. Cultures change and can be influenced by various regimes, they do not excuse naked immorality.
Again I don't think Dukat was pure evil, he had some redeeming traits, but he was a very bad person.
When the Nazis took over Germany, they created a lot of cultural differences between Germany and the rest of the Europe, but this new culture was just a self serving creation of the Nazis and did nothing to legitimize their crimes after the war. Cultures change and can be influenced by various regimes, they do not excuse naked immorality.
Again I don't think Dukat was pure evil, he had some redeeming traits, but he was a very bad person.
There is no one-to-one correlation between Nazi Germany and Cardassia, Bajorans are neither Palestinians nor Jews so a direct transfer of RL historical events to a fictional construct does not make sense. The Bajorans had a planet and a government but their government did not make the best choices in terms of political options. The Jews were a shunned and capsulated minority in many European countries so the German anti-Semitism was only the peak of this long, latent bias whose roots can be traced far back in history. Cardassians are based on the traditional Orwellian cliché, enriched with details from the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.
Dukat was a very controversial person even in Cardassian terms, his superiors punished him quite often, and he had his clashes with Cardassian politicians over many domestic and interstellar matters. He challenged the cultural and political boundaries of his own world by acknowledging an illegitimate child, becoming involved in alien religious practices and effectuating a highly volatile and asymmetrical alliance. He outreached the existing practices in all possible ways, which makes him so interesting to analyze.
I don’t think there is a way to attach morality to history and culture, there are only interpretations from different angles. In this sense, I guess many fans find Dukat’s actions highly disagreeable on a purely personal level in terms of contemporary values and this is only normal but still he was a convincing fictional character presenting a completely different motivation and agenda.
Dukat was a very controversial person even in Cardassian terms, his superiors punished him quite often, and he had his clashes with Cardassian politicians over many domestic and interstellar matters. He challenged the cultural and political boundaries of his own world by acknowledging an illegitimate child, becoming involved in alien religious practices and effectuating a highly volatile and asymmetrical alliance. He outreached the existing practices in all possible ways, which makes him so interesting to analyze.
I don’t think there is a way to attach morality to history and culture, there are only interpretations from different angles. In this sense, I guess many fans find Dukat’s actions highly disagreeable on a purely personal level in terms of contemporary values and this is only normal but still he was a convincing fictional character presenting a completely different motivation and agenda.
Guys, guys, let's take it easy. My idea was just to make a interesting debate over all of this, not start a war. My point was that culture defines morality. I'm not saying that Dukat was not evil. By our Earth standards he most certainly was, there's no arguing. The idea was to try understand the view from other cultures. A vulcan for example, could see the cardassian action as logical. We need resources to survive, they have resources to give. Let's take what we need. Does that make them evil? No. Only logical. Is logic evil? Perhaps! That's what i'm talking about. I'm not defending nazis or Hitler. Let's keep the party plight folks!
A Vulcan would not question Cardassia's quest for resources. They would just believe that there are far more efficient (and less brutal) ways of doing so, than conquering other cultures by force. If another world has resources you need, and wants resources you have, negotiation and trade for such things would be a far more logical approach than war.
Depends which Vulcan you're talking to though, doesn't it. They can pretty much make anything "logical."
We know that there were Vulcans in the Maquis (so that must be logical) but we also know that there were Vulcans who were not in the Maquis (so that must also be logical)
Fucking Vulcans
We know that there were Vulcans in the Maquis (so that must be logical) but we also know that there were Vulcans who were not in the Maquis (so that must also be logical)
Fucking Vulcans
Depends which Vulcan you're talking to though, doesn't it. They can pretty much make anything "logical."
We know that there were Vulcans in the Maquis (so that must be logical) but we also know that there were Vulcans who were not in the Maquis (so that must also be logical)
Fucking Vulcans
Ha, made me laugh
I'm sure there were more (too many to all be spies). Plus, if being in the Maquis is predominantly seen as illogical by most other Vulcans, wouldn't any Vulcan who wanted to join be instantly viewed with immediate suspicion. One wonders how incompetent the Maquis are.
In the season 6 finale (Spoiler), after the possessed Dukat killed Jadzia because she stood between him and the artifact, he knelt down to her body and said "I know this is small comfort, but I never meant you any harm." (He put the emphasis on 'you' because he specifically wanted revenge against Sisko only.) There was no one else around when he said this and he said it remorsefully, so it wasn't for anyone else's benefit or for appearances, it was therefore genuine. If he were truly evil he wouldn't care one way or the other about killing her. Dukat is a tough nut to crack sometimes, scenes like this make him not seem so bad. Of course in season 7 he goes totally off the rails and wants to burn down the whole alpha quadrant if he could, but before that he showed many moments of being somewhat decent in the series following his own (Cardassian) code of right and wrong.
Bullshit. Being willing to murder an innocent person so that you can cause harm to billions of other innocent people and assist an authoritarian regime in its quest to brutally conquer their worlds is in point of fact evidence being evil.
More bullshit. Dukat was an imperialist, a colonizer, and an attempted genocider.
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That would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Not saying he was a hero or anything for his actions here, but I find it interesting the writers decided to put this bit in there, almost as if to show us that Dukat wasn't totally a lost cause just quite yet, still had an element of "humanity" in him before his further descents in season 7. Keep in mind also he was possessed and the pah-wraith used its power to zap Jadzia. After the pah-wraith left Dukat he then "apologized" to Jadzia. He didn't simply kick her body out of the way or step on her on his way out or make comments like "that's what you get!" or anything. One could reasonably paraphrase his comments to Jadzia as "I'm sorry for this, you didn't deserve this." It was the pah-wraith that had a total disregard for Jadzia in this scene, after it left him Dukat showed some remorse which he fully acknowledged as small comfort.
It could have been as self-serving as 'I want my world populated with beautiful women, so they don't need to die' - same way he offered Kira's mother a 'better' life by making her a comfort woman, of whatever the term is.
I am willing to accept that it was the pah-wraith rather than Dukat that killed Jadzia (and that is is doubtful whether Dukat could have stopped the pah-wraith inhabiting him at that very moment).
I am willing to accept that it was the pah-wraith rather than Dukat that killed Jadzia (and that is is doubtful whether Dukat could have stopped the pah-wraith inhabiting him at that very moment).
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