Was Dukat really evil?

[Damian]

Dukat definitely personifies evil, and worse yet, until closer to the end he feels he is misunderstood, that he did what he had to do. But he was a master manipulator.

A lot of the complexity behind Dukat is probably thanks to a masterful performance by Marc Alaimo. Almost like a Hitchcock movie, Alaimo makes you at times want to believe him, that he really regrets his actions during the Bajoran Occupation, and that he's a changed man. But it's just a false facade, but especially during the Klingon-Cardassian War you almost think Dukat has turned a corner. But then he betrays the entire quadrant to the Dominion because he truly is just an evil power hungry man.

And even then there are times, thanks to Alaimo, that you almost....almost believe he might just be misunderstood. He shows a rare moment of honesty when he admits to Major Kira he did take a huge risk in joining the Dominion, one that came at a high cost, and he said he did it because Cardassia was weakened by the war (though in retrospect we can probably say he really did it because he wanted to be the Cardassian ruler and have statues build in his honor--and he was less motivated by trying to make Cardassia a true power except in how it made him a more powerful ruler).

Before the death of Ziyal he was already dangerously evil. He just had a charm about him that added some dimension to the character, again thanks in large part to Alaimo. After Ziyal's death he was just as evil, he just gained a dangerous ally with the Pah Wraiths who helped him carry out his plans in ways he couldn't dream of before. He continued to try to manipulate people by trying to say they weren't really evil, just mischaracterized. But then eventually he gave up even that pretense and embraced the evil that he was.

 

[BillJ]

If ten million people died on his watch, then, yes, he is evil.

 

[Sci]

Nope. And I'm not saying those things you quote aren't evil,

He, himself, was fundamentally evil. You can't do those things and not be.

but he's not a raving lunatic

I mean, seriously. How can you not call someone who murdered and enslaved so many people "evil" just because he had a pleasant demeanor?

bent on destroying all of Bajor

You really gonna sit there and argue that being bent on colonizing and enslaving all of Bajor doesn't make him evil, only being bent on exterminating Bajor?

His character is written far differently in the last two seasons than the first several.

Not really. He was the same self-deluded psychopathic narcissist he had always been. He was just more honest about it.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Even if you take out everything post-Waltz, Dukat was still ridiculously evil.

He was just really, really good at rationalizing it. Downplaying the suffering he caused and focusing on a few Bajorans he gave a better life to with a 'Love me, worship me, sleep with me' condition attached.

Any relief he ever gave to the Bajoran occupation was done transactionally to entitle himself to their love and worship.

 

[Sci]

Even if you take out everything post-Waltz, Dukat was still ridiculously evil.

He was just really, really good at rationalizing it. Downplaying the suffering he caused and focusing on a few Bajorans he gave a better life to with a 'Love me, worship me, sleep with me' condition attached.

Any relief he ever gave to the Bajoran occupation was done transactionally to entitle himself to their love and worship.

Exactly. And I really like that phrase -- "transactionally, to entitle himself to their love and worship."

 

[Ragitsu]

After Dukey became Space Jim Jones, there were folks that continued to defend him.

 

[The Emissary]

This is why I hate the concept of the Prime Directive and moral relativism.

The Prime Directive (used flippantly by various writers) typically stood for three things:

1. Not interfering in the development of pre-warp alien species.
2. Not directly interfering in post-warp alien political affairs.
3. Not judging other aliens morally.

The 1st one is both good and evil. Good in the sense that it stops Starfleet officers from ruling over aliens using technology ala the Ferengi in VOY or Ardra in TNG. Evil in the sense that if an asteroid is about to collide with an alien world - the crew would let an entire planet and its ecosystem be wiped out because some ignorant nonsense about destiny.

The 2nd one makes sense because the Federation wouldn't be able to help itself and simply pick the political side beneficial to the UFP. Enter Section 31. This is also dangerous because it allows the Federation to ally with imperialist powers like the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire. Sucks to be from one the worlds under the boot heel of the Klingons or the Romulans.

The 3rd one makes sense because aliens come in all shapes, sizes, and ideas. Who are we to say what idea is better than another? However, this ultimately is an exercise in futility practically speaking. The Federation judges other aliens all the time. From Kirk and Spock judging the racist aliens, Archer and his crew judging the religious extremists, the crew constantly calling Vulcans boring and warning about Ferengi at the Academy, or having a superior view versus Holograms/Androids.

Regarding Dukat:

Sisko was visibly and verbally disgusted by Cardassian oppression of Bajoran. He didn't dismiss it as a cultural quirk that he could not judge. Same with all the other Starfleet characters that didn't suffer directly through the Occupation. They were clearly disgusted by the Dominion and what they did to the Jem'Hadar. They were horrified by the tactics Klingons engaged in during the brief war with the Klingons in the 2370s. They don't dismiss it as a cultural misunderstanding on war from the point of view of Klingons.

So how can they do the same for Dukat? He isn't engaging a cultural practice but a brutal militaristic occupation that oversaw the deaths of millions of Bajorans. This isn't even a Horta situation where Cardassians did not understand Bajorans were in pain or suffering. They could communicate with Bajorans and the Bajorans in both their words and actions made it clear they did not want to be occupied. The fact Cardassians made it clear to create hierarchal structures to keep themselves above Bajorans and did whatever they wanted to them proves they saw them as lesser.

Now if your argument is Cardassians engaging in the Occupation and Dukat's behavior is his culture or biological - then I guess the Prime Directive applies? But then I'll circle back to my original point - to HELL with the Prime Directive.

 

[Ragitsu]

This is why I hate the concept of the Prime Directive and moral relativism.

The Prime Directive (used flippantly by various writers) typically stood for three things:

1. Not interfering in the development of pre-warp alien species.
2. Not directly interfering in post-warp alien political affairs.
3. Not judging other aliens morally.

The 1st one is both good and evil. Good in the sense that it stops Starfleet officers from ruling over aliens using technology ala the Ferengi in VOY or Ardra in TNG. Evil in the sense that if an asteroid is about to collide with an alien world - the crew would let an entire planet and its ecosystem be wiped out because some ignorant nonsense about destiny.

The 2nd one makes sense because the Federation wouldn't be able to help itself and simply pick the political side beneficial to the UFP. Enter Section 31. This is also dangerous because it allows the Federation to ally with imperialist powers like the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire. Sucks to be from one the worlds under the boot heel of the Klingons or the Romulans.

The 3rd one makes sense because aliens come in all shapes, sizes, and ideas. Who are we to say what idea is better than another? However, this ultimately is an exercise in futility practically speaking. The Federation judges other aliens all the time. From Kirk and Spock judging the racist aliens, Archer and his crew judging the religious extremists, the crew constantly calling Vulcans boring and warning about Ferengi at the Academy, or having a superior view versus Holograms/Androids.

Regarding Dukat:

Sisko was visibly and verbally disgusted by Cardassian oppression of Bajoran. He didn't dismiss it as a cultural quirk that he could not judge. Same with all the other Starfleet characters that didn't suffer directly through the Occupation. They were clearly disgusted by the Dominion and what they did to the Jem'Hadar. They were horrified by the tactics Klingons engaged in during the brief war with the Klingons in the 2370s. They don't dismiss it as a cultural misunderstanding on war from the point of view of Klingons.

So how can they do the same for Dukat? He isn't engaging a cultural practice but a brutal militaristic occupation that oversaw the deaths of millions of Bajorans. This isn't even a Horta situation where Cardassians did not understand Bajorans were in pain or suffering. They could communicate with Bajorans and the Bajorans in both their words and actions made it clear they did not want to be occupied. The fact Cardassians made it clear to create hierarchal structures to keep themselves above Bajorans and did whatever they wanted to them proves they saw them as lesser.

Now if your argument is Cardassians engaging in the Occupation and Dukat's behavior is his culture or biological - then I guess the Prime Directive applies? But then I'll circle back to my original point - to HELL with the Prime Directive.

You pointed out the ways in which The Prime Directive is beneficial, so why toss it out the window? Refine what it stands for, then.

 

[dupersuper]

You pointed out the ways in which The Prime Directive is beneficial, so why toss it out the window? Refine what it stands for, then.

Refining it by returning it to it's original state would be fine. It was only when we got to TNG that Starfleet was perfectly content to sit there watching an entire planet get wiped out by natural disaster while they looked sad and made empty platitudes. The TOS crew were fine saving a pre-warp world from an asteroid. It was never even treated as a question.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

After Dukey became Space Jim Jones, there were folks that continued to defend him.

Skrain Dukat is scum, and he reminds me too much of just about every scummy cult leader, a certain former US POTUS who I will not name, Hitler and any other psycho dictator in Earth's history. No one gets as far as he did without a certain amount of charm. While he loved Ziyal, the fact remains that he was brutal to the other half of her DNA, tried to force his attentions on Kira Meru's daughter, and (though this is not canonical as far as we know) kept TKenny Ghemor's daughter as a certain kind of slave, according to the novels.

 

[Damian]

Even if you take out everything post-Waltz, Dukat was still ridiculously evil.

He was just really, really good at rationalizing it. Downplaying the suffering he caused and focusing on a few Bajorans he gave a better life to with a 'Love me, worship me, sleep with me' condition attached.

Any relief he ever gave to the Bajoran occupation was done transactionally to entitle himself to their love and worship.

Yeah, I think this is Dukat in a nutshell. I think part of the reason why Dukat is so fun to talk about is there is nuance to the character thanks to Alaimo, and the writers too. He wasn't just you're token baddie who always 'acted' like a typical baddie that's easy to just hate. There was some nuance to his character. Like I said, during the Cardassian-Klingon War there were times you could almost think maybe he turned a corner. But we find out that is just another bit of master manipulation. That's why it's almost Hitchcockian, where Hitchcock sometimes had you rooting for the bad guy.

I give the writers and Alaimo a lot of credit for not just depicting Dukat as your token bad guy. There's a lot of complexity there that villains don't always get in shows and movies.

Refining it by returning it to it's original state would be fine. It was only when we got to TNG that Starfleet was perfectly content to sit there watching an entire planet get wiped out by natural disaster while they looked sad and made empty platitudes. The TOS crew were fine saving a pre-warp world from an asteroid. It was never even treated as a question.

I agree with you here. I always liked the general idea of the Prime Directive, but more as it was depicted in the original seris as you point out. TNG definitely took it too far. Sometimes I wonder if there was some event between the original series and TNG, maybe some interference went horribly bad, that led Starfleet to take a more reactionary stance after that. But it seems heartless and cruel to let an entire world die by some otherwise natural event, like in "Pen Pals" just because it was 'destined' (without considering maybe destiny had them saving the world).

The only thing I maybe liked about the TNG-era view of the PD is setting a standard of not interfering with pre-warp cultures (unless, again, there is some world ending disaster that they can help avert). If such a world is spinning just fine, then leave them be. Even if they make some mistakes, war breaks out, that sort of thing, I'd still probably leave them be because sometimes imperfect beings learn from the mistakes they make. I'd still set a pretty high bar for interfering in a culture that is not at risk of annihilation. There'd be too much temptation for an otherwise well-meaning captain to interfere and perhaps make things worse.

As far as interfering with the affairs of other advanced civilizations, again, I'd probably err on the side of minding my own business unless it deals with Federation security (you learn of an imminent attack, or that some culture is interfering with Federation affairs, that sort of thing).

So as far as the philosophy of the PD goes, I agree with it in general. But TNG era took it way too far. Captain Picard was right that the PD was also meant to 'protect us.' Protect Starfleet captains from making mistakes, however well-meaning. But it shouldn't prevent Starfleet from saving planets from certain annihilation if they could prevent it. The beauty of "Pen Pals" at the end of the day is they were even able to save the planet without the inhabitants ever learning of how it was done, so there was no actual interference with their normal evolution as a species. Instead of a blanket non-interference rule for pre-warp civilizations I'd prefer a 'what's the bare minimum interference required to save the civilization from annihilation.' If you can do it a la "Pen Pals" then all the better. If you must reveal yourself, how do you do it with minimal effect on the civilization.

 

[at Quark's]

Had Hitler been seen for who he actually was from day 1 by everyone, he never would have been elected into power. So, if evil people wish to attain positions of power, they'll need some superficial charm at least. Same goes for Dukat (even if not by the Bajoran population, he still must have been 'social' enough relative to Cardassian standards to climb through the ranks and succeed). Doesn't make him any less evil.

 

[The Emissary]

You pointed out the ways in which The Prime Directive is beneficial, so why toss it out the window? Refine what it stands for, then.

Sure, but that's up to the writers. The frustrating thing is the Prime Directive has been the catch all to any moral quandary and all of the shows post-TOS are guilty of this.

I didn't mean to go on a tangent about the Prime Directive.

I was genuinely confused on how it could be used to defend Dukat's immoral actions. Again, if the argument is the UFP can't judge Dukat or his actions on the Occupation - then the UFP is nothing but immoral bystanders and I'm surprised the Bajorans want anything to do with them. Same for the aliens currently under control of the Klingon Empire. It's a shame the shows were never brave enough to address this.

 

[Damian]

I was genuinely confused on how it could be used to defend Dukat's immoral actions. Again, if the argument is the UFP can't judge Dukat or his actions on the Occupation - then the UFP is nothing but immoral bystanders and I'm surprised the Bajorans want anything to do with them. Same for the aliens currently under control of the Klingon Empire. It's a shame the shows were never brave enough to address this.

I don't think it was ever that. I think in general the Federation would have strong feelings about the Cardassian Occupation in general, not just Dukat. It was just that they didn't do anything to stop it. And we can debate whether that was good policy or not. On the face of it the temptation is to say the Federation should have helped the Bajorans all along. But it's probably more complicated then that, and there was a war between the Federation and Cardassia during some of that period. It's possible the Federations hands were tied to some extent.

As an aside I'd highly recommend the novel trilogy Terok Nor. It's all about the Bajoran Occupation and Dukat features prominently in that series. It also provides a possible explanation as to why the Federation felt their hands were tied. Without giving too much away the analogy with Hitler is an apt one. Technically the Bajoran government at the time asked the Cardassians for 'help.' So like Hitler's rise to power started within a technically legal process, so did the Occupation. But it's an excellent trilogy. Granted it's not 'canon' but if and until some show covers those events I figure it's as good a story for the Occupation as any.

 

[gweeps]

I rewatched 'Defiant' a while ago. I forgot about the scene with Sisko and Dukat where they talk about work and how it impacts their home life and being a father.

 

[Mudd]

Yes.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The guy was basically the commander of a concentration camp. Was he evil? Fucking YES!!!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The Prime Directive isn't a philosophy of moral relativism, it's a philosophy of non-interference. The Federation morally judged the Occupation the whole time, took every refugee that made it across their lines and gave them the same freedom as anyone else within their borders. They were just compelled not to interfere for the same reasons the United States can not send troops to help Ukraine. Because the universe is larger than the Federation, Cardassia and Bajor and a policy of interventionism would cause more problems than it solved.

I don't know the context of those books, but that's not a very good argument that the Occupation was legal. Even if Bajor initially asked for help, that's like saying going out with a date with someone entitles them to rape. Whatever initial agreement they had, the Cardassians clearly stepped well beyond the agreed upon terms.

If you are looking for moral reasons the Federation can't just go around liberating every victimized people outside their borders with no treaties or alliances, just look at everything going on in the world now that started with the intention of a 'War of liberation'. Just because something is evil does not mean military intervention would not cause greater evil. Take out the ridiculous 'Apocalypse pact' stuff, that's the crux of the intention behind the PD.

 

[gweeps]

The Prime Directive isn't a philosophy of moral relativism, it's a philosophy of non-interference. The Federation morally judged the Occupation the whole time, took every refugee that made it across their lines and gave them the same freedom as anyone else within their borders. They were just compelled not to interfere for the same reasons the United States can not send troops to help Ukraine. Because the universe is larger than the Federation, Cardassia and Bajor and a policy of interventionism would cause more problems than it solved.

Right on. And to think some people call for military intervention when such wars start. In an age of nuclear weapons, that's tantamount to wishing for a third world war.

The diplomacy and politics in fiction need to mirror real life at least in the considerations of their uses.

 

[Damian]

I don't know the context of those books, but that's not a very good argument that the Occupation was legal. Even if Bajor initially asked for help, that's like saying going out with a date with someone entitles them to rape. Whatever initial agreement they had, the Cardassians clearly stepped well beyond the agreed upon terms.

In the novel trilogy there was definitely more too it than that. I just gave a bare bones summary there so as to not give anything away.

But when you read the trilogy (the first novel covers the start of the Occupation) then you can see where it makes some sense in the story.

It really was a good trilogy and I highly recommend it to anyone that's a DS9 fan. It was interesting to read about the Bajorans just prior to the Occupation. It starts just prior to the first arrival of the Cardassians, who came as visitors initially. The first novel then goes into how the Occupation started, first as 'help' then as an occupation. The 2nd novel goes into how the Resistance started and the middle years of the Occupation (depicting some events that were talked about in the show) and the final novel gets into the construction of Terok Nor and the final years of the Occupation until it fell. And through the entire trilogy you see Dukat's rise to power until he became the Prefect on Terok Nor. In the beginning he's just another ambitious Cardassian military officer but as time goes on he becomes more sinister and power hungry.

Some characters and events we've heard mentioned and saw a bit of in DS9 (like Kubus Oak) and even some talked about in TNG: "Ensign Ro" are depicted. The authors did a good job with their research. They fleshed out a lot of the characters we knew only a little about and tied everything together into a great story.