Was Dukat really evil?

[fonzob1]

re-watching "the waltz", i must say i kinda think Dukat had some points. I know people will be mad at me, but, sincerely, Sisko says Dukat was evil because of he's actions while under orders from an entire different culture, wheres the prime directive now? I mean, Earth itself had it's share of bloody wars, hell, even Sisko bombarded a planet to stop the Maqui because they ware threatening the peace.
How can he judge Dukat? Cardassia was desperate to get resources at the time they made the occupation. Can we judge the way a entire race behave? Where is the prime directive? Besides, Bajor was NOT a part of the federation by that time. As i remember Picard didn't get involved in the beginning of the Klingon civil-war because of the prime directive, and for that he could have sacrificed Worf's life...

About all that villainy stuff Dukat said, with he's state of mind, i don't think it's fair to judge the man that was hallucinating. Having a Bajoran major at your side telling how bad and disgusting you are can let you really mad. Especially if you used to be a proud man ruling an empire.

So, i dare to ask:

WAS DUKAT REALLY THAT EVIL? Or was he just being what he is, a Cardassian? Would we not do the same at the situation?

By the way: This is a complete objective analysis, we're as the federation here, NOT the Bajorans.

This is like asking if Hitler was really evil because he "had some points."

 

[Keith1701]

Of course Dukat was evil. His actions proved it.

Maybe or Maybe NOT????

 

[Shada Dukal]

Squirrels, red herrings and angry arbitraries of good and evil floundering in circles. Pretty standard Federation protocol. Back to Dukat.

People are good only when they can afford it, when they can’t, they do a lot of things they would not do under normal circumstances. In this sense, Dukat’s actions are no more different than what people do when they try to survive and there is a lot at stake. Those who say, “I would never do that, it is horrible” are just hypocritical. Never say never. Just my two cents on human nature and the elusiveness of morality. In fact, two cents is too much considering the quality of the merchandize in question.

I really loved watching the animosity between Dukat and Garak. There was a lot of bad blood between them so definitely they did not like each other at all. Still, they managed to overcome their personal dislike on several occasions and cooperated, which was a great asset for both characters.

I love comparisons between Hitler and Dukat. People who make them expect that the moment they mention the words “Hitler”or “Holocaust” the discussion stops. No such luck. The Cardassians could exterminate the Bajorans but they did not want to. They expected that finally the Bajorans might become more tractable and obedient and never considered them a threat justifying such extremities. They did not think high of the Bajorans, viewed them as inferior and backward but they never wanted to kill them. In fact, both species are quite incompatible in terms of mentality. Hitler’s hatred for Jews was ideologically based, it was part of his Uebermensch theory, and his way of killing them was very organized and deliberate.

In fact, Dukat did his best to make the Occupation more tolerable but his efforts are interpreted only from human and Bajoran perspective. Cardassians are not particularly merciful or compassionate by default, they value order and discipline and they put state priorities above personal choices.

In Cardassian terms, Dukat was a merciful ruler and he wanted to turn the Occupation into some form of voluntary cooperation but when he became a prefect in 2346 the Bajorans were already too hostile towards the Cardassians. There is no saying who Dukat’s predecessor was and what exactly happened between 2328 and 2346. The books say there were some attempts to bring Cardassian colonists but the Bajorans killed them. So the Occupation went wrong not because of Dukat, he was sent there to cope with the aftermath. In a way, he was a kind of scapegoat for his superiors and had to pay the price for mistakes that someone else had made before him.

 

[K'Toska]

You keep making sweeping blanket statements about how people act when they are in survival mode. The fact of the matter is that you don't know how every individual is going to act in that position - *they* probably don't even know how they'll act. You cannot use this premise as the basis for your argument and then whine about how people are talking about their opinions only when you have done the exact same thing.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

You keep making sweeping blanket statements about how people act when they are in survival mode. The fact of the matter is that you don't know how every individual is going to act in that position - *they* probably don't even know how they'll act. You cannot use this premise as the basis for your argument and then whine about how people are talking about their opinions only when you have done the exact same thing.

I'd bet the most common reaction to scarcity is migration--scarcity usually does lend itself well to sustained warfare.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I love comparisons between Hitler and Dukat. People who make them expect that the moment they mention the words “Hitler”or “Holocaust” the discussion stops. No such luck. The Cardassians could exterminate the Bajorans but they did not want to. They expected that finally the Bajorans might become more tractable and obedient and never considered them a threat justifying such extremities. They did not think high of the Bajorans, viewed them as inferior and backward but they never wanted to kill them. In fact, both species are quite incompatible in terms of mentality. Hitler’s hatred for Jews was ideologically based, it was part of his Uebermensch theory, and his way of killing them was very organized and deliberate.

You aren't providing historical examples, so your critics are trampling over your arguments with ease. And for your information, Hitler was not the only German antisemite. The fact that German antisemitism was directly eliminationist is not a compelling difference. Before you start arguing further, you should educate yourself on the Dolchstoss.

 

[Shada Dukal]

In any case, I am sure that the number of people who would choose to survive would be greater than those who would be too squeamish to do it. People have survival instinct and in times of danger, it prods them to do things that their morality condemns. I suppose you have heard of the 1972 Andes flight disaster. All survivors resorted to cannibalism, they fed on their dead comrades, the only person who refused to do it died. People have the right to dislike my opinion and I have the right to dislike theirs.

In fact, Cardassians did that – migration, their space expansion is exactly that.

I fully agree that the German anti-Semitism was a consequence of WWI and the Inflation and it was shared by vast majority of the population. Hitler made a full use of this sentiment. My point is that the Cardassians never had a theory or ideology backing up their attitude to the Bajorans. Their concerns were purely practical and limited to resources, not theories or extermination schemes.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

In any case, I am sure that the number of people who would choose to survive would be greater than those who would be too squeamish to do it. People have survival instinct and in times of danger, it prods them to do things that their morality condemns. I suppose you have heard of the 1972 Andes flight disaster. All survivors resorted to cannibalism, they fed on their dead comrades, the only person who refused to do it died. People have the right to dislike my opinion and I have the right to dislike theirs.

You're trying to shift the goalpost.

Cannibalism is not conquest: it is not a example of might making right, or the prevalence of using warfare to deal with scarcity.

My point is that the Cardassians never had a theory or ideology backing up their attitude to the Bajorans. Their concerns were purely practical and limited to resources, not theories or extermination schemes.

Three episodes contradict you: Duet, Sacrifice of Angels, and Waltz.

 

[K'Toska]

Yeah I fail to see how eating the flesh of those already dead in order to survive is comparable to going out and actively committing genocide and then claiming you had to do so for survival.

 

[Shada Dukal]

Only the scale is different, if there were not dead bodies, they would divide into tribes and hunt each other. I don’t shift the point – my point is that moral constrains suddenly disappear when people have no choice. This example illustrates how people are likely to behave under extreme conditions.

There are more, take your pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_cannibalism#21st_century

Cardassians had to develop a warp capability and space ships in order to bring resources to their world. They did not do it for space exploration, it had always been a conquest and loot for them. If they don’t conquer their population on the planet dies. So they said goodbye to their conscience and chose to survive. What surprises me is that they did not take over Bajor earlier, it is only about 5 light years away from Cardassia. They are an empire, much smaller than the Klingon or Romulan Empires or the Federation but they expand and conquer like everybody else – diplomacy, coercion, intimidation. Whatever it takes, depending on the situation. As long as the locals can avert it, it works. In fact, they specialized in non-affiliated small world in the Alpha Quadrant.

Don’t having a high opinion of the Bajorans and despising them and developing an ideology are different things. The Cardassian personnel stationed on Bajor did not like the Bajorans and did not consider them equal because the Bajorans were quite isolated and underdeveloped in terms of technology. Still, saying that you hate a species is not an ideology – it is a cultural and personal bias and deeply rooted xenophobia, but not a theory supported by the society and the state. What we saw in these episodes was emotionally shattered Cardassians fuming in a state of running amok. It is hardly an evidence of a streamlined theory. The majority of the Cardassian population considered Bajor just another colonial campaign carried out by their state. This attitude is explained in the novel ‘Night of the Wolves”, the young scientist Miras Vara.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Only the scale is different, if there were not dead bodies, they would divide into tribes and hunt each other. I don’t shift the point – my point is that moral constrains suddenly disappear when people have no choice. This example illustrates how people are likely to behave under extreme conditions.

There are more, take your pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_cannibalism#21st_century

Which of these were responses to scarcity, and not reflections of depravity? I doubt any, because such a sustained effort to either hunt and farm one's neighbors for food would have required investment in arms, storage and equipment that would suggest that sufficient economy was in place to make such shifts--not scarcity.

Furthermore, none of these show long term exploitation of living humans, farming them. These are mostly short attacks that only show temporary willingness to resort to violence, not the establishing of longterm patterns of dominance and exploitation.

Cardassians had to develop a warp capability and space ships in order to bring resources to their world. They did not do it for space exploration, it had always been a conquest and loot for them. If they don’t conquer their population on the planet dies. So they said goodbye to their conscience and chose to survive. What surprises me is that they did not take over Bajor earlier, it is only about 5 light years away from Cardassia. They are an empire, much smaller than the Klingon or Romulan Empires or the Federation but they expand and conquer like everybody else – diplomacy, coercion, intimidation. Whatever it takes, depending on the situation. As long as the locals can avert it, it works. In fact, they specialized in non-affiliated small world in the Alpha Quadrant.

Don’t having a high opinion of the Bajorans and despising them and developing an ideology are different things. The Cardassian personnel stationed on Bajor did not like the Bajorans and did not consider them equal because the Bajorans were quite isolated and underdeveloped in terms of technology. Still, saying that you hate a species is not an ideology – it is a cultural and personal bias and deeply rooted xenophobia, but not a theory supported by the society and the state. What we saw in these episodes was emotionally shattered Cardassians fuming in a state of running amok. It is hardly an evidence of a streamlined theory. The majority of the Cardassian population considered Bajor just another colonial campaign carried out by their state. This attitude is explained in the novel ‘Night of the Wolves”, the young scientist Miras Vara.

If the military-led Cardassian government had to make investments in arms and propulsion, than the conditions of scarcity did not exist. Resources were shifted from one area of the economy to the other. In Chains of Command, it is said that among the things the military did was economic and agricultural reforms. Probably by the time they were ready to conquer their neighbors, Cardassians had effectively solved their problems.

 

[Sci]

The idea that a species capable of faster-than-light travel would lack the economic capacity to meet its population's material needs is just absurd. Warp drive as presented in Star Trek requires such an abundance of energy that any society capable of doing it on a large industrial scale would by necessity find itself capable of generating the amount of energy necessary to sustain the population's material needs.

If the Cardassian population was starving, then it was so because of the economic policy choices of the Cardassian power elite, not because of a physical inability to feed anyone.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^There's also something absurd about a culture sending low-warp ships, probably with 1-10 million marines, on a year-long journey to the next solar system, provisioned for the voyage, invade a planet, probably wreck its economy, and wait years for it to reach the level of efficiency necessary to allow it to export foodstuffs. They might as well send an empty ship with a note, that says, "Fill this, please."

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Are we done with the Putinisms? Dukat was evil. Discuss amongst yourselves.

 

[Shada Dukal]

All these examples of quite irrational human behavior prove that armchair humanism can’t change the fact that each person or society walk the thin line between barbarity and civility and it is the circumstances that determine which side of the line one might end up.

Cardassia can’t even grow its own food, so most of the food is imported from their off-world colonies.

Not all Cardassian interplanetary endeavors were like Bajor. In fact, Bajor was a move of desperation, no one can launch costly annexations for a living. The tri-party model, the agreement between the civilian Detapa Council, the Central Command and the Obsidian Order as a state security structure worked for five centuries. Tret Akleen introduced this model in 1872. In 1925 the Cardassians became warp-capable. Warp-capable ships require a lot of energy, special minerals and ores indeed so providing these resources and building military ships was a priority because these ships were supposed to carry out colonization project and bring resources to Cardassia. This is how Cardassian military became so influential and even displaced the civilians in terms of decision-making. They were the providers of resources so keeping the military in top shape was a matter of survival besides they had to fend off the Talarians, the Tzenkethi Coalition or the Klingon Empire.

What is more, Cardassian Union did not have technology for deep mine extraction and shipment of resources from distance places was out of question due to energy scarcity. Cardassians only typically mined on class M worlds, as it was not as cost effective to maintain operations in other non-native environments.

That is why Cardassians expand and colonize only within its outskirts, they can’t afford to launch a costly project to a distant unexplored part of the galaxy. Their aim is to bring neighboring worlds such as Klaestron V into their zone of influence. It is often forgotten that the Cardassians don’t rely on occupations only. They have good trade relations with Valerians, Kobheerians, Kressari, Xepolites, Lissepians. They don’t have a notion of Prime Directive so they have no problem with selling warp engines or other advanced technology to pre-warp societies. In fact, most of their colonial projects result in affiliation because the pre-warp locals benefit from better technology and security against other potential invaders.

In terms of political system, Cardassian model resembles the model of totalitarian democracy where the military assumed the role of political and economic elite. A totalitarian democratic state maximizes the control over its citizens because this model assumes that the individual must comply with the majority in the name of the common effort. For the Cardassians this common effort was their survival. Very often scarcity and lack of basic social regulations are the main reasons that bring about such social models. Totalitarian models are the choice of poor societies who can only portion and redirect their poverty. Cardassians were in a state of civil war when Tret Akleen managed to unite them and set the new goal – interstellar expansion for survival.

In this sense, judging the Cardassian political system and Dukat as a product of this system from the point of view of the Federation democratic model is useless. Cardassian political reality is completely different from the Federation practices.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

All these examples of quite irrational human behavior prove that armchair humanism can’t change the fact that each person or society walk the thin line between barbarity and civility and it is the circumstances that determine which side of the line one might end up.

Still shooting at the broad side of the barn?

Cardassia can’t even grow its own food, so most of the food is imported from their off-world colonies.

Not all Cardassian interplanetary endeavors were like Bajor. In fact, Bajor was a move of desperation, no one can launch costly annexations for a living. The tri-party model, the agreement between the civilian Detapa Council, the Central Command and the Obsidian Order as a state security structure worked for five centuries. Tret Akleen introduced this model in 1872. In 1925 the Cardassians became warp-capable. Warp-capable ships require a lot of energy, special minerals and ores indeed so providing these resources and building military ships was a priority because these ships were supposed to carry out colonization project and bring resources to Cardassia. This is how Cardassian military became so influential and even displaced the civilians in terms of decision-making. They were the providers of resources so keeping the military in top shape was a matter of survival besides they had to fend off the Talarians, the Tzenkethi Coalition or the Klingon Empire.

What is more, Cardassian Union did not have technology for deep mine extraction and shipment of resources from distance places was out of question due to energy scarcity. Cardassians only typically mined on class M worlds, as it was not as cost effective to maintain operations in other non-native environments.

That is why Cardassians expand and colonize only within its outskirts, they can’t afford to launch a costly project to a distant unexplored part of the galaxy. Their aim is to bring neighboring worlds such as Klaestron V into their zone of influence. It is often forgotten that the Cardassians don’t rely on occupations only. They have good trade relations with Valerians, Kobheerians, Kressari, Xepolites, Lissepians. They don’t have a notion of Prime Directive so they have no problem with selling warp engines or other advanced technology to pre-warp societies. In fact, most of their colonial projects result in affiliation because the pre-warp locals benefit from better technology and security against other potential invaders.

In terms of political system, Cardassian model resembles the model of totalitarian democracy where the military assumed the role of political and economic elite. A totalitarian democratic state maximizes the control over its citizens because this model assumes that the individual must comply with the majority in the name of the common effort. For the Cardassians this common effort was their survival. Very often scarcity and lack of basic social regulations are the main reasons that bring about such social models. Totalitarian models are the choice of poor societies who can only portion and redirect their poverty. Cardassians were in a state of civil war when Tret Akleen managed to unite them and set the new goal – interstellar expansion for survival.

In this sense, judging the Cardassian political system and Dukat as a product of this system from the point of view of the Federation democratic model is useless. Cardassian political reality is completely different from the Federation practices.

I don't know where you are getting this information: it comes from no canonical source. Nonetheless, all this information tells me that rather than dedicate itself to agricultural reforms, the Cardassian government diverted resources to martial activities, effectively creating and exacerbating the problems that the policies purported to solve.

 

[JTShanks]

I don't think Gul Dukat was evil, in truth I don't believe in good or evil; to many one could see things as either simple black and white or see the world in simple shades of gray and other colors. I am the latter.

To keep my answer clean and simple; Gene wanted Trek to not exactly be a good/evil heroes story like many science fiction stories did at the time of it's conception, it wasn't about that, most villains in Star Trek were typically large political figure heads who did things that many would consider questionably immoral or in fact "evil".

Dukat is of course with that desrciption at hand, NO EXCEPTION to that rule; and I think that is what makes Dukat a very well thought out and actually quite enjoyable an antagonist. (I don't want to say flat out villain, that assumed 2 dimensional evil mustache twirlers.)

Do I agree with Dukat's means justify his actions? No. There was no reason or rhyme for them and he did not need to occupy Bajor or any other worlds.

Do I think Dukat is evil? I cannot say and I am honestly not the kind of person to judge on that behalf, something of which requires the validity of saints and heroes.

 

[Shada Dukal]

[/QUOTE]
I don't know where you are getting this information: it comes from no canonical source. Nonetheless, all this information tells me that rather than dedicate itself to agricultural reforms, the Cardassian government diverted resources to martial activities, effectively creating and exacerbating the problems that the policies purported to solve.[/QUOTE]

I truly don’t know why someone so ignorant about Cardassians should dabble with this topic but here are the sources. Ignorance is not an excuse. If you want to criticize, you have to be aware of what exactly you criticize.

Still, I am glad to broaden your unipolar scope.

http://acad.sfi.org/courses/alien/doc/cumanual.pdf

The information in the Star Fleet Orientation Manual is based on “Cardassian Union - Iron and Ash”, it can be downloaded. It also served as a basis for “Day of the Viper”, the first book of the “Terok Nor” trilogy.

http://stexpanded.wikia.com/wiki/Cardassian_Sourcebook

“The Cardassians valued efficiency, Cardassian mines were almost always on class M worlds, as the expense of excavating in other non-native environments was not cost effective. (DS9 novel: Devil in the Sky)”

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Cardassian

About the trade relations, you can check Memory Alpha and Beta.

As for whether the Cardassian should have or not dedicated themselves to agricultural reforms, it is just your afterthought. Too bad, they did not ask you what to do with their own world and their own history. Their planet could no longer feed them but they managed to develop their technology despite the hardships.

Dukat embodies the survival potential and the grittiness of his species. His world does not tolerate sissies and he is adequate to the conditions that created him. Check the “Day of the Viper”, it shows the early Dukat and his motivation. It also reveals a lot of information on the situation on Cardassia on the eve of the Occupation.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^Non canonical sources.

My afterthought? No, not really. It's well known that propaganda that focuses on conquest over reform is a cover for a political system that fears reform. It's called negative integration.

 

[Shada Dukal]

The sources are canonical enough but you don’t have the time and desire to check them. Still, shunning information that goes against the grain is a valid choice.

I don’t know which political system you mean but Cardassians have all reasons to value their political system, it has worked for them for over 500 years. And it has turned them from a dying nation into the Forth Power on the ST geopolitical arena. If they choose to implement some changes, it will be because they deem it fit, not because they are urged by foreign powers. I don’t see why Cardassians should subscribe to someone else’s model if they have theirs. So you are right, the result will be negative integration because they will view such reforms as political pressure and interference in their internal affairs.

There are many species in the galaxy and all of them different, some of them scary and militaristic. Being unable to understand the motivation of a given species or disapproving of it is a normal fan reaction but branding the species or its representatives as evil is pathetic and hilarious. Everyone has the right to choose which character to like or dislike and the choice is subjective. Nothing is real, this is a show, and it presents different views.