Was Dukat really evil?

[Bad Thoughts]

The sources are canonical enough but you don’t have the time and desire to check them. Still, shunning information that goes against the grain is a valid choice.

You are completely incorrect. Only the episodes from live television and the films are canon. A few novels are considered important because they show what ideas informed creative people who worked on the series, most important being Jeri Taylor's. Andrew Robinson's Stitch in Time is important for revealing the choices that went into his performance of Garak, but the novel is a first person narrative of a character suffused with propaganda from birth.

ETA: Considering you have no historical examples, and you are increasingly trying to argue in-universe with sources not recognized as canon, I think we can put your intellectual Putinism to bed.

 

[Shada Dukal]

Opinions differ greatly when it comes to acceptance of sources. Your opinion represents the stance of the “purists.” However, there are other opinions and many fans recognize the importance of additional sources such as books or comics, especially when it comes to alien species. The fact that the history of a given species is not explicated in the series does not mean that they don’t have history.

Andrew Robinson’s book “A Stitch in Time” is part of the official re-launch series of books on DS9. Your disapproval of this book is matter of personal choice and preference but the CBS editors considered it important enough to include it. It is referred to here too.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cardassian_history

On Cardassian history and governmental structure, you may have a look at this too.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cardassian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardassian

As far as the Cardassian tri-party system is concerned, here is a quote from “Defiant.”

SISKO
The Order has to answer to someone,
don't they?

GUL DUKAT
In theory, they answer to the
political authority of the Detapa
Council just as the military does.
In practice... we both run our own
affairs.

SISKO
Not the most efficient system.

GUL DUKAT
It's worked for over five centuries.


http://ds9.trekcore.com/media/scripts/309.txt

I am not posting that info for you, don’t flatter yourself, I post it for people who are interested in the topic and want to check it by themselves. Cardassian-haters are very widespread on forums, Dukat-haters even more but this is their problem not mine. DS9 was a show about the shades of grey and moral obscurity. Pop-culture is teeming with happy-go-lucky clashes between good and evil and the significance of this show lies in its refrainment from didactic pigeonholing. Ironically, fans love doing it.

In terms of reception, the mere fact that Dukat can invoke so much rabbis and hate means that he probably hit a nerve and questioned a lot of comfortable preconceptions. People tend to hate most bitterly when someone shatters their rose-colored glasses to pieces.

I will put my views to bed when you put your WASP preaching to bed. Having in mind your grievous lack of knowledge concerning the Cardassians, I am not likely to run out of arguments soon.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I will put my views to bed when you put your WASP preaching to bed.

1. I'm brown.
2. I'm mostly Mexican and Jewish, with a small amount of French. No Anglo-Saxon. No Welsh. No Scottish. No Irish. No ancestry from the original English speaking countries.
3. I'm not even Christian.

You aren't very good at this, are you?

Your disapproval of this book is matter of personal choice and preference but the CBS editors considered it important enough to include it. It is referred to here too.

I've expressed no disapproval of Stitch in Time. It is a fine novel--an insight into character creation. However, it, along with all novels, are explicitly not canon.

Cardassian-haters are very widespread on forums, Dukat-haters even more but this is their problem not mine.

We hate Cardassians and Dukat? We recognize that they were wonderful tools in exploring the collapse of a society that overextends itself through militarism and makes little effort at democratic reform. They have charm self-assurance that is their strength, but it is also the source of the downfall. And their downfall was spectacular and complete, was it not?

Finally, your interpretation of their history is based on your personal notion of Social Darwinism that has been discredited for decades.

 

[Shada Dukal]

My mistake, you are only a multicultural First-Worlder who gets jittery when out of arguments.

What you consider canon truly does not bother me, splitting hair over well-known sources is your last resort.

Yes, Cardassians are a militaristic totalitarian society, they have no notion of Federation democracy, and certain aspects of Social Darwinism explain their views and actions perfectly. Their downfall was caused by a turn in war and supernatural powers. That divine intervention in the wormhole has always puzzled me but this was the only way for the goodies to win. There is nothing spectacular about their downfall – sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. They were wonderful tools in showing that there are other points of view.

You have chosen a great way to recognize Cardassians by claiming that the most developed Cardassian character in the show is evil. You don’t analyze him because it is too much of a trouble, you simply condemn him, but generally you don’t hate Cardassians, not at all. How cute.

My analysis on Cardassian history is the only one here because judging is easier than analyzing.

Cardassian political reality depends on the interplay of three governing structures and each one is trying to wind up with as much power and influence as possible. The Detapa Council could not impose control over the Central Command due to lack of economic leverage, so the influence of the civilian quota shrank and they voted in favor of Central Command interests. Doves versus Hawks.

To make the situation even more complicated, the Obsidian order broke loose from accountability and became “a state within the state” making use of all weaknesses and blind spots in the system. So Dukat’s development as a military officer and a public figure took place in such an environment.

Joining the winning political lobby and undermining the attempts of his political rivals was a must. He made his way in a highly aggressive and competitive environment through cunningness, ruthlessness, and risk-taking.

In Cardassian terms, success is measured by the number of favors one can return and affiliation with the political figures likely to rise. So Dukat was perfect in walking the minefield of Cardassian political reality and joining the winners. He realized that the only way to retain his sway was to make himself indispensible for the currently ruling body.

His principles were maximizing the influence of the Military, keeping the Obsidians in check, and making sure his people benefits from his political maneuvering. He was the ultimate political animal – eating, sleeping, and breathing politics, alliances, scheming, plotting, cutting losses, and making unexpected moves. He was not raised and trained to be a humanistic person, his job was to be a successful officer and a leader.

I don’t see anything democratic in the Cardassian political system so I can’t understand why Dukat’s actions have to be judged from democratic point of view. Apart from the Federation and its affiliated worlds, none of the remaining big powers or smaller planetary coalitions was democratic. Disapproving of Dukat’s action while munching popcorn is a personal choice but claiming that Dukat is evil for representing the practices and views of his species is too farfetched. Cardassians are not likely to win Humanitarian Nobel prize but are hardly the only ones in the universe. I can’t also understand why morality is ascribed to political and historical developments when they are over and nothing can be changed.

 

[Sci]

I for one see no reason to restrict ourselves to only canonical sources. But the non-canonical sources Shada cites do not make Dukat into any less of a monster.

In fact, the DS9 novels (of which Terok Nor: Day of the Vipers is but one entry) -- particularly Fearful Symmetry and The Soul Key -- make Dukat more of a monster, if anything. They establish that he was surreptitiously keeping Iliana Ghemor captive and raping her on a regular basis during the later DS9 seasons.

You have chosen a great way to recognize Cardassians by claiming that the most developed Cardassian character in the show is evil.

Elim Garak is not evil. (Well. Not purely, anyway.)

His principles were maximizing the influence of the Military, keeping the Obsidians in check, and making sure his people benefits from his political maneuvering.

However often Dukat may have used the welfare of the Cardassian people to justify his actions, I see no evidence that he actually undertook any efforts to make sure the Cardassian people actually benefitted from anything he did.

I don’t see anything democratic in the Cardassian political system so I can’t understand why Dukat’s actions have to be judged from democratic point of view.

Because democracy is the only legitimate system of government.

I can’t also understand why morality is ascribed to political and historical developments when they are over and nothing can be changed.

By this logic, nobody should be outraged by American slavery or Jim Crow, or by South African apartheid, or by the Holocaust, or by the gulags, or by the genocide of Native Americans, or by any human rights violation.

 

[Shada Dukal]

Yes, I am fully aware of how Dukat is depicted in the books you refer to. However, Dukat was not accused of his actions as a governor of the Letau prison facility. The criticism against Dukat is based on the Bajoran stances towards the Occupation and the Federation disapproval of Cardassian geopolitical affairs. Dukat was judged as a political figure and military leader not as a prison warden.

This is one of the inconsistencies indeed, on the level of the show Dukat did not recognize Kira and realized that she was Meru’s daughter later. In the books, he is presented as obsessed with Kira since the time she joined the Resistance and he was keeping tabs on her activities. I guess the authors tried to bridge this gap as they saw fit.

Personally, I refrain myself from considering any character evil, I simply assume that I can’t relate to this character. It is a matter of cultural tolerance. Bigotry in the name of a good cause is still bigotry. Being culturally, socially and politically different and express it does not make someone evil. Only unlikable.

Dukat’s actions stopped the Klingon invasion, solved the problem with the Maquis and in case the Dominion had won, Cardassia would have benefited from the defeat of the remaining powers. When he joined the Dominion, the Dominion was winning, so he chose the winners. The retroactive evaluation of the viewers does not change the fact that his appraisal of the situation at the time of joining was correct.

Democracy is currently the most widespread model but it is quite differently interpreted and applied in various parts of the world. As far as the show is concerned, we saw quite different systems – totalitarian, imperial, quasi-feudal, monarchies, theocracies. The Federation is hardly the benchmark, their views and practices are binding to their affiliated worlds only.

Being outraged is a normal human reaction but imposing a sense of endless guilt and retribution is called revanchism. Rubbing the defeated enemy’s nose in it leads to more historical revisionism while the descendents of the victims think that their past suffering exempts them from current liability. Restraining the interpretation of events to the point of view of the victor only serves to convince people that victors are never judged, no matter whether their cause was right or not.

In any case, all the victims won’t come back and the descendents of the people inflicting the injustices won’t give up everything their ancestors have acquired by using unjust ways. Unfortunately, human civilization is built on blood, bones, exploitation, and power games so I don’t know how far back in time we should go to compensate all victims of all conflicts.

 

[Sci]

Yes, I am fully aware of how Dukat is depicted in the books you refer to. However, Dukat was not accused of his actions as a governor of the Letau prison facility. The criticism against Dukat is based on the Bajoran stances towards the Occupation and the Federation disapproval of Cardassian geopolitical affairs.

Among many other things. The OP's question was, "Is Dukat really evil?" Nothing about that precludes taking into consideration other aspects of his behavior.

Personally, I refrain myself from considering any character evil, I simply assume that I can’t relate to this character. It is a matter of cultural tolerance. Bigotry in the name of a good cause is still bigotry.

So you're saying that bigotry is... evil?

Dukat’s actions stopped the Klingon invasion,

Sisko's actions stopped the Klingon invasion. And Dukat assisted him to save his own ass.

solved the problem with the Maquis

Killed the victims of the Cardassian military, you mean.

and in case the Dominion had won, Cardassia would have benefited from the defeat of the remaining powers.

Nope. Best-case scenario, Cardassia is reduced to yet another oppressed Dominion vassal world. Worst-case scenario, Cardassia is reduced to rubble after the Female Shapeshifter decides to make good on her threat to exterminate the Cardassian people from Season Four.

When he joined the Dominion, the Dominion was winning, so he chose the winners.

False. When he led the Jem'Hadar to Cardassia, the war had not started yet. By doing this, Dukat sold out his own people by reducing them to a vassal world of the Dominion, overthrew his own government to make himself dictator, and gave a territorial foothold to a state that had not had any such way to launch its intended war and which had already promised to exterminate his people.

Dukat sold out his own people for his own self-aggrandizement.

As far as the show is concerned, we saw quite different systems – totalitarian, imperial, quasi-feudal, monarchies, theocracies.

And all of them illegitimate.

 

[Shada Dukal]

Dukat’s evilness is indeed a gross oversimplification. In terms of character analysis, he was a complex character that could not be reduced to a good-evil dichotomy, more of an anti-hero walking the full circle of possible personal metamorphoses than the typical villain. He was defeated by the TPTB, they could simply not let him win. That would result in negative publicity for the show.

On the level of the show and the books as well as the discrepancies between them, Dukat played his cards well, he was good at that game. All aspects of his behavior lead to this conclusion – a very good player who played to win, and to inflict harm on his opponents. As I said, Cardassian power scheming was his element and Cardassian political reality fostered such behavior. Ruining an Obsidian agent who was also the daughter of an important political figure was a good opportunity so Dukat made a full use of it. You can’t stomach it, well, watch Mickey Mouse then.

Judging is evil, no one is that perfect to judge others and impose moral qualifications. There are courts and negotiations for that and complex litigation and diplomatic procedures exactly because it is not a matter of personal likes and dislikes. People who do it are intolerant bigots who think that they are better people than the rest. What would be the next step? Postulating allowed ways of interpreting characters and then accusing of a mindcrime those who don’t stick to them. It is ridiculous and pathetic. Such people are ready to drive human race with kicks and shoves into a brave new world, killing everyone who disagrees in the process. In the name of civility and morality, of course. Funny lot, I would say.

Well, at the time of joining the Dominion the Klingons were a problem for Cardassia. Klingons continued attacking Cardassia even after Sisko revealed who the Changeling was. The Maquis should not be there in the first place, the Federation washed their hands and left them as a fifth column against the Cardassians to have a pretext to meddle with the Cardassian interests in the DMZ.

Whether the Cardassians would be reduced to another oppressed world is a matter of speculation. No one knows what exactly could happen. Still, the chances were that the Cardassians would administer the Alpha Quadrant on behalf of the Changelings because Vorta were diplomats and negotiators but not administrators. The Changelings could not rule over such a vast territory themselves so the Cardassians would be the likely choice. Not a bad prospect, I guess.

Dukat led the Jam’Hadar to Cardassia to stop the Klingon invasion and to finish the Maquis, the war was inevitable so he made sure to take the side that would give him more. Joining the Federation was out of question, both powers are too incompatible. The Federation could neither stop the Klingon attacks nor the Maquis. They did not tried to stop the Klingons after the Kitomer Accords were renewed and they left the Maquis there on purpose so dying as a cannon fodder for the Federation was not an option, either.

The Cardassian government consisted of toothless civilians that could do nothing against the Klingons and the Maquis. Dukat made a dangerous and bold move throwing his enemies off balance, no matter whether viewers approve of it while watching the later developments. In fact, Cardassia lost its favor with the Founders due to Dukat’s absence. Damar was not very good at political games, he evolved into a leader when the circumstances forced him.

I don’t remember anyone accusing the non-Federation species of having illegitimate governmental systems. The Federation may not approve of them and find them ineffective but they refrained from openly criticizing them due to the prime directive. This must be another fit of self-righteous bigotry.

 

[Sci]

Dukat’s evilness is indeed a gross oversimplification.

His victims would probably disagree.

On the level of the show and the books as well as the discrepancies between them, Dukat played his cards well, he was good at that game. All aspects of his behavior lead to this conclusion – a very good player who played to win, and to inflict harm on his opponents. As I said, Cardassian power scheming was his element and Cardassian political reality fostered such behavior. Ruining an Obsidian agent who was also the daughter of an important political figure was a good opportunity so Dukat made a full use of it.

Wow. And now you are literally rationalizing rape.

You show a lot of concern for victimizers. I wonder why you don't care about victims.

Judging is evil, no one is that perfect to judge others and impose moral qualifications. There are courts and negotiations for that and complex litigation and diplomatic procedures exactly because it is not a matter of personal likes and dislikes. People who do it are intolerant bigots who think that they are better people than the rest.

Problem is, you just engaged in moral judgment by saying that.

The Maquis should not be there in the first place, the Federation washed their hands and left them as a fifth column against the Cardassians to have a pretext to meddle with the Cardassian interests in the DMZ.

Demonstrably false. The Federation allowed settlers to stay on their worlds if they agreed to live under Cardassian rule, and the Cardassian Guard then engaged in abuses against those settlers, thus prompting the settlers to form the Maquis.

Whether the Cardassians would be reduced to another oppressed world is a matter of speculation.

Pure nonsense. There's no such thing as a member of the Dominion that isn't an oppressed vassal.

Still, the chances were that the Cardassians would administer the Alpha Quadrant on behalf of the Changelings because Vorta were diplomats and negotiators but not administrators.

Also false. Weyoun was promised that he would get to govern Earth itself by the Female Shapeshift (the Final Chapter arc establishes this). The Vorta are administrators.

The Changelings could not rule over such a vast territory themselves so the Cardassians would be the likely choice.

The Founders wouldn't need to. They have the Vorta for that.

And remember, the Female Shapeshift had threatened to exterminate the Cardassians back in Season Four.

Best-case scenario, the Cardassians end up like the Karemema, skulking around in the hopes of avoiding Jem'Hadar guns if they want to engage in any foreign relations without Dominion approval and otherwise under the Dominion's thumb. Worst-case scenario, the Female Shapeshifter decides to live up to her promise.

Long-run, there's no way joining the Dominion leads to Cardassia actually benefitting. Dukat sold them out.

Joining the Federation was out of question, both powers are too incompatible. The Federation could neither stop the Klingon attacks nor the Maquis. They did not tried to stop the Klingons after the Kitomer Accords were renewed

Yet another false statement. You really need to review your facts.

You cannot cite the renewal of the Khitomer Accords as a valid reason for Dukat to lead the Jem'Hadar to Cardassia, because the Khitomer Accords were only renewed after he led the Jem'Hadar to Cardassia.

In fact, Cardassia lost its favor with the Founders due to Dukat’s absence.

Don't be naive. Cardassia never had "favor" with the Dominion. It was an occupied world whose resources the Dominion intended to use in order to aid in their conquest of the Alpha Quadrant. If it had been in any way "favored" or an equal partnership, the Jem'Hadar wouldn't have been on Cardassia's streets, the Vorta wouldn't have been running the Cardassian constabularies (as established in Una McCormack's novel The Crimson Shadow), and the Cardassian state would have been left to run its domestic affairs in peace.

Cardassia under the Dominion was like East Germany and Poland under the Soviet Union: Occupied territory.

I don’t remember anyone accusing the non-Federation species of having illegitimate governmental systems.

I just did.

The Federation may not approve of them and find them ineffective but they refrained from openly criticizing them due to the prime directive.

We have no idea whether or not the UFP criticizes them. Criticism is not forbidden by the Prime Directive. Interference is forbidden, to prevent the kind of imperialism of the sort Cardassia engaged in, and of which Cardassia became a victim.

 

[hux]

Dukat’s evilness is indeed a gross oversimplification.

His victims would probably disagree.

As would the countless victims of Starfleet. Doing bad doesn't make one evil, it simply makes one three dimensional and believable

Dukat felt like a real person (Kai Winn likewise). It's one of the reasons DS9 was so good. Damarr was another. Well written characters don't wear white or black hats. They're complex. The do good, the do bad.

Dukat was a Cardassian, raised with a tyrannical way of thinking and seeing the world. He was also a leader and had a certain personality type. How could he be anything other than what he was? Meanwhile, Sisko was raised in paradise (what's his excuse for doing bad?)

I never saw Dukat as evil, only very convincing as a rich, well defined, complex character. He was capable of doing very bad things but, who isn't?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Just being raised as a Cardassian is irrelevant in Dukat's case. We've seen a lot of other Cardassians who were not evil monsters like he was. Aamin Marritza, for example.

 

[Sci]

If Dukat is indeed Evil, then Benjamin Sisko is even worse, and his Starfleet worse again

Maybe Sisko is evil. He's certainly done some wicked things.

But this is changing the topic.

Dukat’s evilness is indeed a gross oversimplification.

His victims would probably disagree.

As would the countless victims of Starfleet. Doing bad doesn't make one evil,

No. Overseeing the occupation of a foreign culture and implementing policies that directly kill millions of innocent civilians is what makes one evil.

 

[kkt]

Dukat was evil in the eyes of Cardassians, but for different reasons than he was evil in the eyes of the Federation. To Cardassians, he was evil for having and then acknowledging an illegitimate child, intrinsically setting her above his own wife and children, whom it was his primary duty to support. For selling Cardassia to the Dominion. For joining the pah-wraith cult.

 

[Shada Dukal]

Moral judgments based on black-and-white oversimplifications and hate don’t solve any problems they only escalate them. It is important to rationalize and analyze instead of crying over spilt milk.

The hostilities involving Dominion and Alpha Quadrant species started as early as the end of season 2 (“Jam’Hadar” episode) so Dukat joined the Dominion for the final part of the party. In fact, the Founders’ paranoia was escalated by the Federation incursions through the wormhole.

All sides did their share in the sequence of events that led to the outburst of the Dominion war. The Federation took advantage of the Klingon mentality based on honor and warrior pride and later dragged the Romulans into the war. Dukat did what all sides involved were doing – forming alliances and trying to outmaneuver each other but he was quicker on the draw. Imperialism is what all sides in the Dominion War practiced. And each party considered their form of imperialism justified.

Prime Directive precludes any forms of intervention in social matters that fall under the domestic jurisdiction of a given species. This also includes their affiliated worlds and the policies implemented. Personal likes and dislikes hardly change it.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

In On the Spirit of the Laws, Montesquieu wrote that the customs and morals of all peoples were, in spite of differences of culture and religion, more or less the same, recognizing the same categories of offenses and the need for punishment for transgressions. There existed a natural morality, and that all moral systems were compatible and comparable. What differed significantly was whether those laws could be applied to regulate power.

I don't see any distinctions from among the Star Trek species, let alone Cardassians, that would contradict this. From what we know of Cardassian laws and customs (which come from episodes like Duet, Cardassians, Necessary Evil, Things Past, Tacking into the Wind and Waltz), they have compatible concepts for murder, kidnapping, theft, and retribution. Where we see differences is in the juridical process and the lack of application of those moral principles by those in power, particularly by the military.

There is nothing that should disabuse us of the notion that Cardassians understood that they might be murdering Bajorans. Throughout Waltz, Dukat never tries to replace the word murder from his "trial": he attempts to argue for mitigating circumstances that would explain his actions and exonerate him. The things that are at stake are not the minutiae of morality, but the gross categories which all Trek cultures share. Subesquently, we should feel comfortable with people from the Federation or Bajor commenting on Cardassian actions. (The existence of "good" and "evil" is superfluous to this discussion as it has no specific bearing on the people in question.)

 

[hux]

^ Just being raised as a Cardassian is irrelevant in Dukat's case. We've seen a lot of other Cardassians who were not evil monsters like he was. Aamin Marritza, for example.

And we've seen Federation people do horrible things. Point is, our cultures influence our behaviours regardless of whether we reject them. Cardassian culture is part of his make-up. Damar was equally influenced by that culture before breaking from it. If we're looking at factors that explain why Dukat behaved the way he did then there are two options

1. The infantile option (he's evil......boo hiss)
2. The intelligent option (a combination of his experiences and his nature determined his actions)

Before you know it, we're discussing free will (and nobody wants that)

No. Overseeing the occupation of a foreign culture and implementing policies that directly kill millions of innocent civilians is what makes one evil.

No, it doesn't

There is no such thing as evil. There are people. They do good things, they do bad things. To say Dukat is evil based on any of the bad things he has done is as mistaken as saying he is inherently good because of some of the nice, fluffy things he has done

He is an interesting character. Complicated and contradictory (like all interesting people are)

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Damar was equally influenced by that culture before breaking from it. If we're looking at factors that explain why Dukat behaved the way he did then there are two options

Dumar did not break from Cardassian culture. He remained a patriot. What he did was question authority and the practices of the Cardassian government from within Cardassian culture. That is why Kira's criticism in Tacking into the Wind stung: because she revealed to Dumar the hypocrisy of not applying one's values to each individual.

 

[SoullessMinion]

I have to say, I really resist the idea that "evil" is a simplification or reductive. Some people may use the term that way, but I don't. Evil is complex and can be difficult to define. Good and evil often intertwine and there is a school of thought that says they cannot exist without one another - what is "good" if not the attempt to end evil, or vice versa.

I don't know if I fully believe that, but to say that the concepts of good and evil don't exist, or are meaningless? That is absurd to me.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ And me.

 

[Sci]

I have to say, I really resist the idea that "evil" is a simplification or reductive. Some people may use the term that way, but I don't. Evil is complex and can be difficult to define. Good and evil often intertwine and there is a school of thought that says they cannot exist without one another - what is "good" if not the attempt to end evil, or vice versa.

I don't know if I fully believe that, but to say that the concepts of good and evil don't exist, or are meaningless? That is absurd to me.

This.

And if you can, say, look at a photograph of mountains of corpses from a mass murder, or look at a child who's learned that his mother has been taken from him, or read about what it was like living in an extermination camp, and think that there's no such thing as evil?

Then there's something wrong with you.