Was Chakotay/Seven really that bad?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Sophie74656, Jan 24, 2017.

  1. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Location:
    Paris (FRANCE)
    Though I like ST: Voyager because of its strong and compassionate female captain (without forgetting Mulgrew's performance, of course), I could accept to see Kathryn Janeway die IF her death was justified by the eturn of events AND if her death was as high as what the character had been all her life, what means, a dignified death.
    The problem is that these authors who made her die in novels and/or some fanfictions, did it for abstract reasoning like their total distaste of Janeway and/or because they fed up of her omnipotence for 7 seasons, which overshadowed her XO and that, it was time for Chakotay, to finally exist and shine … what he couldn’t make, even with Janeway still around, even in background.

    But I have to admit that, generally, I don’t like reading the post-Voyager's novels because, to my mind, the authors often forget the work already supplied by scriptwriters during 7 years (when it is made, of course... and we noted how the writing has been weak about the personality of a main character from an episode to an other or about main -> ex: Janeway or even B'Elena) like the general frame, the personality and the past of the known & beloved characters. It is as important to know and follow the psychology of the characters as the action, because it allows readers to better understand the behaviour and/or the reactions whatever they are.

    Let's take Janeway, Chakotay or even Chakotay/Seven for example:

    - for Janeway, the words of "discipline", "dignity" and "respect" are a big part of the character and she always ensured acting and treating herself and others by sticking on these 2 principles, according to how Jeri Taylor described her Janeway in novels like Mosaic & Pathways, which also served of weft in the TV show during 7 years (it's a pity that scriptwriters forgot this point to often) -> to make her die from an unworthy death would be a shame because not faithful to the spirit of the character. I don't expect that she dies as a hero but at less, that she dies while she protects her firends and family like she did for 7 years and surely even before. That would be Kathryn Janeway with her sense of the sacrifice.
    - for Chakotay, described by the same Jeri Taylor like a complex man, whose the background spans two cultures, in which he has one foot in each, belonging to both, yet to neither, what maybe made him getting a nature which was contrary, although all that, he is a good man and a man of peace. Furthermore, I remind you that 1) his father never forgave him for embracing 24th Century technology nor for joining Starfleet, what he saw it as a betrayal, and Chakotay carried that guilt with him ; 2) that he left Starfleet and joined the Maquis when the Cardassians began attacking his people and annihilated them, killing his father in passing ; 3) that following these events, he developped a big mistrust towards the Federation and Starfleet, whom he considered largely responsible of the events, including the death of his father, because these lattest had let make the Cardassians thrived in their quest of annexing others planets with dramatic consequences for affected populations .
    All his experience of 7 years on Voyager, including a good and even friendly collaboation with Janeway, a Starfleet representative with all the good and bad sides, doesn't mean that it reconciled him with Starfleet (and its principles which he considers too strict) or/and the Federation's policy. Besides, this lattest could decide to send Chakotay and his former crew - excepted B'Elena - in jail for a long time, for high treason due to their past activities in the Maquis, once on Earth. But even, if he and his friends were pardoned thanks to Janeway & Owen Paris interventions, I wouldn't see Chakotay running to join Starfleet and help, as the newly Captain of Voyager - used as a Starfleet logistic support - new and old ennemies become allies to continue invading planets and kill people OR, if the Earth was under state of war, to accept to fight to defend a cause which he wouldn't share, at less, according to his past and his rather solitary & free (/culture of peaceful) spirit personality,

    It is for all these reasons that I consider post-Voyager stories highly improbable, because they don't just stick to the sequel I could imagine still according to what I already read in original novels or seen with the show..

    On the other hand, what seems to me a more logical course of action, would be to see Chakotay failingl to resume a normal life on Earth, - alone or in couple (but sorry, the lucky woman would be neither Janeway or Seven!) - and still in opposion to the Federation 's last decision, he would eventually join a new group of opponents to oppose the policy, what would make him face Janeway, promoted Admiral, AGAIN.

    for Chakotay and Seven AND the fact that scriptwriters/producers/Mulgrew refused or forgot to take into account the personalities of the characters), I deeply regret that all what made the "grandeur" and charm (in term of loyalty and friendship) of the relatioships between Janeway/Chakotay and Janeway/Seven, were suddlenly broken in Endgame -> ref. to Chakotay and Seven silent attitude about their romance towards Janeway. Come on, how did the Doctor and Neelix know all about it and even helped while Janeway ignored everything (until she learnt the news of the relationship of the mouth of her older doppelhänger, of course,what shocked her), although she was nevertheless the common point between her friend/First Officer/friend and Seven, her surrogate daughter/Astonomic officer. Janeway suffered a shape of betrayal and we know to what extent, she reacts very badly to it (Tuvok, B'Elena, Chakotay, Neelix, Tom)!
     
  2. Six of Twelve

    Six of Twelve Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2016
    Location:
    Unimatrix 58
    Yes, it was really that bad. The actors had no chemistry and it was OOC for Seven of Nine to sincerely want a romance. Of course, her part in it could be interpreted as objective scientific research for the purpose to better understand humanity. Because she'd spent most of her life as a drone, she wouldn't have understood why using another person for such research while being emotionally detached was wrong.

    The Chakotay/Janeway match was more believable. And they shouldn't have tried to match Seven with anyone. Her emotional attachments to Icheb, the other Borg children, and Naomi WIldman were more believable for her in a mentor/big sister type of relationship.
     
  3. Paradise City

    Paradise City Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    The Chak-Seven pairing was just badly executed. The relationship just popped into existence with little development and when the relationship encounters turbulence Beltran overacts his piece. Underwhelming was my impression of it overall.
     
  4. φ of π

    φ of π Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2016
    Location:
    Unimatrix √-1
    Chako7ay just seemed unrealistic.
     
  5. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Location:
    Paris (FRANCE)
    Improbable, unrealistic, etc... but C/7 has its shippers and they are quite numerous on the www, according to the number of fanfictions about this fictional couple. Really surprising. :eek:

    (by the way, there are some pairings made by fans which are just as much surprising, like Chakotay/Paris!)
     
  6. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2016
    Location:
    New Jersey
    There's fanfiction for any pairing you could think of. Janeway/Paris seems to be a popular one as well
     
  7. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Location:
    Paris (FRANCE)
    Really, you found that Beltran overaracteds in his scenes with Seven, in Endgame?!
    For my part, I found the actor more convincing in his role of enamored man with Janeway (especially in first 3 seasons), Seska and/or Kellin.

    Even Jeri Ryan, seemed not concerned in her scenes with Beltran...

    (both actors told that they were surprised by this pairing, which came out of nowhere, what maybe explains their lack of commitment in romantic scenes ..).
     
  8. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    It was so insincinsere and downright stupid.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    First pancake.

    There were 4 singles guys on Voyager by Season 7, so of course she didn't want to use up her highest rated love match as a her doomed first pancake.
     
  10. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    There was still Harry, that would have been the perfect consolation for his failings and suffering not to mention revolutionary-the Asian nerd gets the hot blonde at last!
     
  11. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Location:
    Paris (FRANCE)
    Oh I know and besides, I'm one of those who "shipped" Janeway/Paris since Caretaker.
    (plus, Mulgrew and McNeil got along very well and it was visible on screen -> I'm pretty sure that both would have managed to make J/P convincing).
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Harry could've poured his baby batter on her griddle.

    You get one.

    He used it up.

    Sad.

    Not even a pancake ever.
     
  13. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    I imagine that's some sort of sexual innuendo reference to when Seven asked him to "copulate". I think he did the gentlemen thing after all she was really immature at the time.
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Innuendo is code.

    Am I talking about pancakes or true love?
     
  15. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    She didn't even understand basic social graces she wasn't trying to force Harry's hand in anyway.

    I seem to recall she really thought of it as an experiment. In any case Harry did the smart thing which was say no as Janeway would have been furious seeing it as him taking advantage of her.

    Harry isn't gay after all he relations with that nomadic alien and got into trouble for it and had Libby back home.
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The number of fails, and LOUD yearning from afar (to his friends), compared to the few times when that boy took his clothes off and introduced himself to a receptive naked woman creates the argument that he was in the closet about something. Maybe it was men, or maybe it was Tribbles, or his mother. We don't know and can't know for sure, but it was a certainty that he was almost certainly selfsabotaging by going after unobtainable women, ignoring low hanging fruit, and quickly finding reasons to dissolve any relationship that he did accidentally find himself burdened with.

    If Harry loved Libby, and kissing Libby, why did he get a job in far-far away space so that it's almost possible that he would never have to kiss her again, while still being able to say that he is in a straight relationship and that no one should doubt his straightness?
     
  17. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    Men pining after unobtainable women is as old as the sun.

    I also get the impression Harry is a rather awkward guy that doesn't make him gay.
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    There's an argument that Harry is possibly gay, or may even not be aware that he is gay, which is why he thinks that he is straight.

    Which is different from declaring his homosexuality as a truth, without substantive proof.
     
  19. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    Seriously your claiming that people are unconsciously gay? Really?

    Anyway Harry is straight he just has bad luck same with Geordie from TNG, Julian in DS9(early seasons) and I'd say Malcolm Reed somewhat in Enterprise.

    Not to mention tens of millions of similar boys and men who are equally if not more awkward around women.
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Before someone knows that they are gay, they do not know that they are gay. With most people this happens early on, with others it can take an embarrassing number of years to figure themselves out.

    How does anyone know that they don't love putting a pene in their mouth, until they have committed the act?

    "Wow. Simply wow. That totally blows vagina out of the water!"

    Harry was 21 in the pilot.

    So young.