Was Alliances a Turning Point for Voyager?

[DarKush]

^
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I thought I got where you were coming from. I just wanted to point out that black slavery is not as ancient as we often like to tell ourselves.

I did know that the Kazon were inspired by the LA gangs, and I'm thinking the Crips and Bloods, primarily black gangs, and/or perceived to be by most people. I also found it telling that the Kazon were considered unworthy of assimilation by the Borg. While some think that was a good thing for the Kazon it felt like a backhanded kind of thing, like they had nothing of value that the Borg wanted to steal.

Overall I think the Kazon will go down as one of the worst attempts at allegory by Trek writers. Not to mention just a poor attempt at creating credible adversaries. The Trabe would've been much better in that regard. That being said, I thought "Alliances" was a decent episode. I liked the Godfather 3 style hit on the Kazon leadership.

 

[DarKush]

VOY suffered from being Star Trek.

How so? Voyager probably wouldn't have gotten made if it didn't have Star Trek in the title and it probably wouldn't have gotten seven seasons even if it had.

I think the idea of a lost Starfleet ship and a crew whose values were constantly being challenged by the need to survive and the desire to get home had a lot of potential. Sometimes we saw that with Voyager and sometimes we didn't. But I don't think the Trek brand hampered Voyager. Perhaps the inability of the creative and business minds behind Voyager to tweak or add something different to the brand is what hurt the show.

 

[Anwar]

No, the whole "Lost ship going home" thing is only good for two seasons, and the internal conflict was never going to be that interesting because the Maquis weren't different enough for it to work. The show needed more thought put into it if it was to have some bigger plot beyond "Going home".

 

[Sindatur]

I did know that the Kazon were inspired by the LA gangs, and I'm thinking the Crips and Bloods, primarily black gangs, and/or perceived to be by most people. I also found it telling that the Kazon were considered unworthy of assimilation by the Borg. While some think that was a good thing for the Kazon it felt like a backhanded kind of thing, like they had nothing of value that the Borg wanted to steal.

Heh, yea, that's kinda like the Straight guy getting pissed if a Gay guy checks him out, and then feels insulted if the Gay Guy doesn't check him out.

 

[DarKush]

No, the whole "Lost ship going home" thing is only good for two seasons, and the internal conflict was never going to be that interesting because the Maquis weren't different enough for it to work. The show needed more thought put into it if it was to have some bigger plot beyond "Going home".

I disagree. The lost ship arc wasn't a bad thing. It helped set Voyager apart. Now, whether the show fully maximized the potential of the concept is up for debate. I don't think they did, but that doesn't mean the concept itself was lacking, more so the execution.

Regarding your point about internal conflict, I didn't mention the Maquis. I was thinking more along the lines of the various aliens the crew meets or situations that arise that would be difficult for them without having Starfleet near to back them up, or the temptation to flout, tweak, or compromise their principles to get whatever it is they wanted or needed. But I do think more should've been done with the Maquis storyline. It was resolved way too quickly on the show.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Darkush? If I must quibble, and I must, what about the two centuries plus of slavery before the civil war?

 

[Anwar]

I disagree. The lost ship arc wasn't a bad thing. It helped set Voyager apart. Now, whether the show fully maximized the potential of the concept is up for debate. I don't think they did, but that doesn't mean the concept itself was lacking, more so the execution.

Every single other "Lost ship" series out there worth remembering always had another, grander plot to go along with the "Lost Ship" angle. Farscape, NuBSG, Lexx, etc.

VOY had potential if they were willing to do more than "Lost Ship going home" and have another plot associated with that, or have the one plot evolve into another. But that was squandered because that would require it to be more than standalone.

 

[DarKush]

Darkush? If I must quibble, and I must, what about the two centuries plus of slavery before the civil war?

I agree with you, however it seemed that in your initial post on this subject that you inferred that slavery had ended a few centuries ago. But you are right that slavery did take place over several centuries before the Civil War.

 

[DarKush]

I disagree. The lost ship arc wasn't a bad thing. It helped set Voyager apart. Now, whether the show fully maximized the potential of the concept is up for debate. I don't think they did, but that doesn't mean the concept itself was lacking, more so the execution.

Every single other "Lost ship" series out there worth remembering always had another, grander plot to go along with the "Lost Ship" angle. Farscape, NuBSG, Lexx, etc.

VOY had potential if they were willing to do more than "Lost Ship going home" and have another plot associated with that, or have the one plot evolve into another. But that was squandered because that would require it to be more than standalone.

To be fair to VOY they did have more plots going on that the lost ship angle. The lost ship angle was the overarching idea, but they also explored the human condition (like all Trek shows have done or attempted to do), and continued Trek's exploration theme. All of the shows you mentioned also were noted for storytelling and character development (except for a few episodes) and while I don't think VOY was great at either for the most part (except for Seven of Nine and the Doctor), they did both.

 

[Anwar]

Farscape and Lexx also had smaller casts and rarely had to bother with things like "Ship maintenance" because their ships were alive/automated and didn't need help in repairs. So that made it easier.

But both shows had bigger plots like "Stop Mantrid", "The Wormhole technology weaponry" stuff, "Peacekeeper/Scarran War".

VOY should've had a "The 8472 are invading our Universe, so we have to build a Delta Federation to try and stop them" plot with returning home becoming less of an issue as time went on.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Moya was pregnant, and lex looked like a rapist how it would land, penetrating planets balls deep.

 

[DarKush]

Farscape and Lexx also had smaller casts and rarely had to bother with things like "Ship maintenance" because their ships were alive/automated and didn't need help in repairs. So that made it easier.

But both shows had bigger plots like "Stop Mantrid", "The Wormhole technology weaponry" stuff, "Peacekeeper/Scarran War".

VOY should've had a "The 8472 are invading our Universe, so we have to build a Delta Federation to try and stop them" plot with returning home becoming less of an issue as time went on.

I never watched Lexx so I can't comment on that. But with Farscape it seemed to me that a big part of Crichton's journey was about getting home. It's just they changed what home and family meant to him over the course of the show. Perhaps VOY would've been better if they had done that, maybe not. I do like your 8472 idea though. I wish more had been done with them than to turn them into Changeling copycats.

 

[Anwar]

Farscape was a case of the writers introducing a second plot to drive the series (Wormhole tech and the Scarran/PK War) because Crichton's own "Go Home" storyline wasn't enough to really drive the series. Then, once the second plot was fully entrenched they actually resolved Crichton's storyline and allowed the second plot to take over fully.

Yeah, the 8472 plot could've been enough to drive the entire series really.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But it's pretty shit poor Dorothy Gale that can't figure that he's home all along.

 

[DarKush]

^
Yeah, but sometimes it takes time for a person to get there, to finally understand that he's where he's meant to be. Heck, some people don't like their biological family members, so I can cut Crichton some slack for taking time to realize these literally alien characters are his family and the other side of the universe is actually his home, is his new normal.

As for VOY, they did add some new aspects with Seven of Nine and the Borg stories. Bringing down the Borg could be seen as an overarching arc in the second half of the series.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Starfleet personnel don't have homes.

The Maquis lost theirs to politics.

There was no need for them to start off towards Earth.

No reason at all.