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Warping out of orbit

The entire dialogue referring to the daring act is here:

Dax: "We're too far away."
Kira: "Wanna bet? Take us to warp."
Dax: "Inside a solar system?"
Kira: "If we don't, there won't be a solar system left."
Remarkable facts:

- Previously in the episode (and never mind the rest of the show!), ships had gone to warp within this same solar system.
- Dax worries about going to warp inside "a" star system, not Bajor's system in particular.
- One of the consequences of failure would be that when the Founder makes the star go nova, starships nearby will be consumed, suggesting they couldn't escape to conflagration into warp.

It could indeed be argued that warping towards a star would be a bad idea in general. However, our TOS heroes had done that very thing several times. And whenever they did it, it appeared as if high warp was in fact relatively slow going, either because warp engines perform poorly close to stars (of a certain type?), or because they perform just fine but time onboard the ship starts behaving oddly, quite literally giving our heroes more reaction time to steer. Also, even Picard warped inwards on occasion (say, "Schitzoid Man") without any mention of risk. Plus, warp battles inside star systems were the norm rather than an exception in TOS, to the degree that Kirk agonized about not being able to fight at all when caught in an insystem battle without warp drive in "Elaan of Troyius".

Considering "By Inferno's Light" is a truly isolated incident, we could perhaps argue that Dax was being Dax and joking to alleviate the tension, and there was no specific risk about going to warp (as opposed to there being an immense risk in not going to warp!).

Then again, runabouts have never traveled at warp at the inner parts of the system, on trips between DS9 and Bajor, even when there has been great hurry (such as in "The Circle"). Ships have effortlessly gone to warp at the very doorstep of DS9, but on their way outward. We could easily argue that space inside the Denorios belt is subject to exotic hazards relating to that belt. But that would be ignoring Dax' use of "a solar system" as opposed to "this solar system" above... Perhaps Dax just misspoke?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Or we might remember that Bajor has abysmally bad "subspace weather", which was even a major plot point in "Invasive Procedures" and "Things Past"...

lol, I'm beginning to think that you are physically incapable of agreeing with me, Timo!
 
I always liked that shot, maybe because it was something different from the 2-3 usual warping out shots that they used, as it only appeared a handful of times throughout the whole show. The shot also appears in "All Good Things" sans planet, just after Picard talks to Tomalak on the viewscreen. It originates in a season 1 episode but can't remember which one.

Yes, I've been watching in order on blu ray and am currently through "Angel One." Ive seen the shot you reference at least twice and maybe three times in these early episodes, I just don't remember which exact ones.

Strangely this Point of View effect made an appearance in a few S5/S6 eps of DS9, where I thought it was created for until my TV station started repeating TNG!
I think it's first used in The first ep of season 2 of TNG when Guinan is talking to Wes about missing his Mum in Ten Forward...
I THINK!

And as for warping out of orbit, I always wondered why this was seen as a big deal, especially after that TNG ep where they perform that "Near Warp beaming" (It'd be good if the remastered eps improve that effect, maybe have the transporter beam IN the wall for a second or two)

In DS9 "By Inferno's Light" Jadzia makes a huge deal about warping inside a solar system being a big no-no yet Kira overrules her, yet in everything we'd seen previously (particularly most of the departure glory shots in the movies)
starships have no issues with going to warp within Earth's solar system. etc.
Especially when you consider Voyager's opening titles, which show the ship has no problems going to warp from the orbit of a Planet every week :lol:

If you think through the majority of the warp scenes in Trek, most of them take place within a solar system (usually after departing the planet of the week...) so it's odd when they sometimes make a big deal of it!

Maybe I'm misreading your words, but I think we were originally talking about the shot from the exterior of the ship with the standard stock shot of the ship coming towards the camera with an added warp blast. I think you may be referring to the shots going to warp from the interior of the ship and looking out a window. If it's the latter, then yeah that was used in "The Child" as well as Season 3's "The Vengeance Factor" off the top of my head. Always enjoyed those interior warp jump shots, or any shots from the inside with the ship at warp for that matter.
 
... but I thought that one of the concerns expressed in it about warp speed within a solar system (particularly due to the direction they were travelling) is that if you overshoot, you end up in the sun!
From Earth's orbit, the sun is only two degrees wide, that's a pretty small target.

:)
 
With reference to all the DS9 warps, I don't think DS9 itself is technically withing the Bajoran star system, merely "Bajoran space" (and at the edge of that since a few times, particularly referencing the Klingons searching in WOTW, neutral space doesn't seem that far away...)

They do reference journey time to/from Bajor in the transports as being quite a long trip on a few occasions too (mainly Keiko whining)

As far as I remember in By Inferno's Light, the Defiant is guarding the wormhole so maybe its warp jump is just from near-DS9 to the Bajoran star and its slowing down so close to the star itself is what worries Jadzia (it did end up being VERY close! )
 
With reference to all the DS9 warps, I don't think DS9 itself is technically withing the Bajoran star system, merely "Bajoran space" (and at the edge of that since a few times, particularly referencing the Klingons searching in WOTW, neutral space doesn't seem that far away...)

They do reference journey time to/from Bajor in the transports as being quite a long trip on a few occasions too (mainly Keiko whining)

As far as I remember in By Inferno's Light, the Defiant is guarding the wormhole so maybe its warp jump is just from near-DS9 to the Bajoran star and its slowing down so close to the star itself is what worries Jadzia (it did end up being VERY close! )

The pilot episode shows that the move DS9 from Bajor to a distance of 160 million kilometers. To give an example of how far that is, the distance from the sun to the Earth is at most 152 million kilometers. So unless the Bajoran system is much smaller than ours, DS9 is still within the solar system.
 
One can occasionally glimpse background graphics that show several planets in the Bajor system outside the Denorios belt or DS9/wormhole orbit...

Essentially, Bajor is one Astronomical Unit away from its star, just like Earth. And DS9 is two AUs out. Which means that sometimes impulse travel time between the two is that required to cross 1 AU, and sometimes it is that required to cross 3 AU. Which is indeed exactly what we hear: at times, it takes two hours, at others, six hours.

And places like Bajor VIII (from "Past Prologue") are quite a bit farther out. But traveling there is a quick affair, and explicitly involves use of warp drive, while the DS9-to-Bajor transit is always done at impulse.

FWIW, our heroes slowed down to impulse in "Best of Both Worlds" at the orbit of Jupiter already, while DS9 is more like at the distance of Mars...

Timo Saloniemi
 
One can occasionally glimpse background graphics that show several planets in the Bajor system outside the Denorios belt or DS9/wormhole orbit...

Essentially, Bajor is one Astronomical Unit away from its star, just like Earth. And DS9 is two AUs out. Which means that sometimes impulse travel time between the two is that required to cross 1 AU, and sometimes it is that required to cross 3 AU. Which is indeed exactly what we hear: at times, it takes two hours, at others, six hours.

And places like Bajor VIII (from "Past Prologue") are quite a bit farther out. But traveling there is a quick affair, and explicitly involves use of warp drive, while the DS9-to-Bajor transit is always done at impulse.

FWIW, our heroes slowed down to impulse in "Best of Both Worlds" at the orbit of Jupiter already, while DS9 is more like at the distance of Mars...

Timo Saloniemi

Where is it said that DS9 is twice the distance from the Bajoran sun that Bajor is? if the Bajoran solar system is similar to ours - that the sun is of the same type and Bajor is about the same distance away from it - then it works, but there are lots of other solar system configurations that could work.
 
Well, if Bajor isn't at a distance of 1 AU from its star, then the model where runabout trips take between 1 and 3 units of time should not work. Yet we know that this very model best matches the travel time data: 2 hours is the shortest (from "The Storyteller"); 3 ("House of Quark", "The Begotten") and 5 ("The Alternate") are mentioned; and 6 hours is the longest (although I seem to have lost my notes on that, alas).

Or then everything holds otherwise, but the distance from Bajoran orbit to the wormhole orbit isn't actually 1 AU but less, and the station was towed from Bajor to the wormhole along a curved route (even though the technology of the time shouldn't require that). In which case Bajor also orbits at less than 1 AU from its sun.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I need the name of an episode with a VFX shot where the Enterprise warps toward the screen leaving a planet behind.

Thanks.

Your video is amazing! Definitely start a separate thread for it if you haven't already! Great job! :lol:
Thanks!:D
I started a thread for it in General Trek when I released the video a few months ago. I'll start another when I release part II in a few weeks.
 
I need the name of an episode with a VFX shot where the Enterprise warps toward the screen leaving a planet behind.

Thanks.

Your video is amazing! Definitely start a separate thread for it if you haven't already! Great job! :lol:
Thanks!:D
I started a thread for it in General Trek when I released the video a few months ago. I'll start another when I release part II in a few weeks.

Awesome! Definitely looking forward to part 2.
 
Well, if Bajor isn't at a distance of 1 AU from its star, then the model where runabout trips take between 1 and 3 units of time should not work.

Eh? If Bajor is not at 1AU then the trip to DS9 can't take between 1 and 3 units of time?

I'm sorry, but you have completely lost me here...
 
We have dialogue to indicate that the station was towed more or less exactly 1 AU outward from Bajor in the pilot episode. Thus, if Bajor is also 1 AU from its sun like any good M class planet from a nice G class star, travel times between Bajor and DS9 should vary between one (closest) and three (farthest) time units (say, two hours and six hours, respectively). Assuming beeline courses and constant speeds, which with Star Trek impulse drive is a pretty good assumption. If you cross 1 AU in two hours, you aren't curving much!

But if Bajor is closer to its sun than 1 AU (and that sun isn't a G class star after all), then travel times should only vary between one (closest) and less than three (farthest) time units; if Bajor is farther out, travel times should vary between one (closest) and more than three (farthest) time units.

Of course, there are lots of variables here. Perhaps DS9 wasn't towed straight out. Perhaps some travel times quoted do not refer to runabout travel, despite appearances, but to travel by some other widely used means such as faster or slower Bajoran ships. Perhaps there are reasons not to maintain constant speed or a beeline course. Etc. It's just a nice coincidence that the 1:3 travel time ratio holds so well, and we aren't forced to invent exotic explanations to why Bajor is so Earth-like despite the figures showing that it orbits its sun really close or something.

(Or perhaps the writers indeed thought it that way. Although I rather suspect they just picked a random number of hours for the needs of the week and didn't even realize that the travel time should change according to the time of the year. Which reminds me that the Bajoran year appears shorter than the Earth one, considering their annual celebrations don't always happen at the same time of the Paramount season... Oh, well.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
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