Warp ten is a LIE?

[JirinPanthosa]

I thought the technical manual was explicit that as you approach warp 10 speed increases infinity and in Threshold Paris was explicit he was everywhere at once.

No reason they couldn't have changed the scale to set infinity as infinity rather than 10 at some point in the future.

I thought the function of dilithium was to contain antimatter without it go boom.

 

[Ithekro]

The basic problem then changes from "going infinite speed" to navigating to any point in the universe with any kind of accuracy. This appears to be what is beyond Federation science, and thus renders "Warp 10" useless.

Now if they could manage "Warp 10" into being a point to point jump drive, were they could predict the starting and ending points of the Warp 10 jump so that effectively a second or less time has passed from the ship and/or universe from the ship entering Warp 10 and leaving at its predetermined exit point....than you have effectively created a sort of Jump Drive (or the Space Battleship Yamato version of going to warp using wave motion engines). Your limits become knowing where you will end up, and perhaps a range limit based on some unknown factors.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I don't think there ever was such an implication. Sure, infinite speed sounds like difficult to achieve. But why impossible?

The idea was that as a ship approached Warp 10, engine efficiency goes down and even if you had infinite power, the rate of warp field layers coming out of the nacelles and pushing the ship forward would have to be faster than Planck time.

If that idea was ever put forth, it was in the episode threshold only.

The idea initially came from the TNG Writer's Bible that Roddenberry wrote, but the TNG Technical Manual took it a bit further. But as Roddenberry originally wrote in the Writer's Bible: "Warp 10 is the physical limit of the universe--beyond that, normal time-space relationships do not exist and a ship at that velocity may simply cease to exist."
http://leethomson.myzen.co.uk/Star_...ion/Star_Trek_-_The_Next_Generation_Bible.pdf
(go to PDF page 47)

This is probably where the idea of a ship being infinitely fast and occupying all points in the Universe simultaneously came from. So as a result, we got ships staying below Warp 10, but playing in the Warp 9.1+ range...until "Threshold."

 

[dswynne1]

I think that the warp scale should be adjusted as needed, so that we won't have a "Warp 9.999999..." problem. Maybe, to use a Spinal Tap analogy, perhaps a new theoretical limit should be Warp 11?

 

[Phoenix219]

In TNG and VOY, (especially in the infamous episode "Threshold), they talk about warp ten being a point where you are at every point in the universe and you just have to chose one to slow down. But, what if warp ten is not actually this magical point? We already know according to TNG that "every time you breach a warp barrier, you spread a Deteriyon Pulse." For instance, at warp one, a deteryion pulse travels one light-second. At warp two, a deteryion pulse travels one Light^2 second. And so on. So what if at Warp Ten, a Deteryion pulse spreads so far that it LOOKS like it is forever. At warp ten there is radiation that turns people into salamanders, so scientists and theoretical physicists could be forgiven for thinking that Warp Ten moves infinity. And this salamander radiation PROBABLY only exists at exactly warp ten. In real life, space-time waves "crest" at a very specific point. So, in a future Trek, you could have higher warp than ten. BUT, if this is used, trek writers need to make sure this high warp is not faster than Slipstream. The ONLY good thing VOY set up is the idea of slipstream travel, and I would hate to ruin it.

In real life, "space-time" "waves" are purely theoretical and unprovable. The connection between space and time itself is purely theoretical. 3D physical realm is one thing. Keeping track of natural change via cycles is a man made concept that we call time. We don't even understand reality, so there is no way you can try to fit the fictional fantasy warp tech into any "real life" parameters.

 

[Phoenix219]

"Threshold" flew in the face of the idea that Warp 10 was a theoretical velocity that no ship would ever achieve. Ever. Even transwarp, slipstream were slower than Warp 10--both would fall into the Warp 9.9999+ range, IMO. Even Q can't really move freely around the Universe at Warp 10 (but he'd probably be closer to it than anyone else). As such, it didn't matter what kind of new propulsion technology was invented, Warp 10 would still be unreachable unless one simply recalibrated the warp scale to make Warp 10 substantially slower (which would likely explain Warp 13 in "All Good Things...") or just do away with the warp scale altogether and make ludicrous speed the highest velocity.

What makes you think Q can't move freely around the Universe? Aren't they outside of normal space and our dimension to begin with? Instantaneous teleportation and reality creation and all....

 

[Prax]

On the Wiki it mentions some BTS stuff-that the warp scale used in "All Good Things" could indicate that Starfleet has finally successfully adapted some sort of Transwarp drive, and suggests that maybe Warp 11-13 or 15 could be the terminology used for it.

 

[C.E. Evans]

What makes you think Q can't move freely around the Universe? Aren't they outside of normal space and our dimension to begin with? Instantaneous teleportation and reality creation and all....

You misunderstood me. I said Q couldn't move freely around the Universe at Warp 10, but he could do so short of that (probably around Warp 9.9999999999+), which would still allow him to appear anywhere nearly instantly--or at least within two finger snaps. But if we go by Roddenberry's original idea of Warp 10, Q wouldn't need to travel around the Universe at all if he could move at that speed...

 

[Timo]

I just don't see the need to believe that Q can't do infinite speed and must do a tad worse. From what we observe, his travel time between any given A and B can be exactly zero.

He just has better control of how to be somewhere rather than everywhere. Or at least of how to manifest somewhere even if he in fact is everywhere simultaneously.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

There really is no such thing as infinite speed, which is another reason why "Threshold" was such a terrible episode, IMO. If Q's travel time is exactly zero, then there is no need for Q to travel anywhere because he would be already occupying every single point in the Universe simultaneously. Imagine a Q occupying every single micron aboard the Enterprise all at the same time (the bridge itself would be so full of Q's that there'd be no room for anyone or anything else). Q may be extremely powerful to the point of being godlike, but he's still part of the Universe, albeit from a higher plane.

 

[Timo]

I don't get any of the above. Of course there's infinite speed whenever one's travel time is zero - that's the definition. That this would result in one being everywhere at once is a weird premise, but probably sort of "quantum physics weird": it may be statistically true, and Q manages to be statistically significant in one spot with greater precision than Tom Paris. And I don't see any evidence from which to derive limits to what Q can do - being part of the universe certainly isn't a limitation to anything much.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[uniderth]

... Starfleet has finally successfully adapted some sort of Transwarp drive,

Who says they haven't already developed some sort of transwarp. There is no indication that the Excelsior was a failure. The "Warp" of TNG are probably the transwarp engines of Kirk's era. There is also a huge design difference between Post Excelsior (trans)warp engines and Kirk area engines.

 

[Paul Weaver]

There's a big difference between in one location in one second, and another location at the same time, compared with one location in one second, and another location 10^-44 seconds later.

Given a universe of 10^27m in diameter, the maximum speed that wasn't infinite would be 10^71m/s. That would allow you to instantly travel anywhere in the universe without occupying two places at the same time (Setting aside the definition of 'same time' and relativity).

Of course as Q can travel through time as well as space it's a rater moot point.

I find it fascinating that the edict "nothing can travel warp 10 - it's infinite" lasted 5 episodes

 

[C.E. Evans]

Yeah, there's no such thing as zero travel time.

 

[Paul Weaver]

There's not such thing as an objective time that all observers agree with either.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Yeah, there's no such thing as zero travel time.

True. But, what if you're already there?

In real physics, at infinite speed, you would have infinite mass, but zero time to exist in. Speculating on that, I'd have to think that that means that you'd just cease to exist, because, no time. However, that infinite mass part is tricky, because as you're accelerating up to it, and before you have no time, you'd be massive enough to become a singularity.

I'm assuming, though, that in subspace (or the warp domain - whatever you want to call it), your "infinite mass" might be achieved by actually being in a subspace portion *of every bit of mass that already exists*, and so you'd just effectively be everywhere. There would be no travel time, because you're already wherever you want to be. Dropping out of the field would be a matter of choosing which part of where you're already at that you want to be at in "normal" space.

It almost makes sense... up until you consider that the energy requirements just for structural integrity alone would also be infinite, and that you'd be incredibly more likely to just rip all apart into constituent essential "stuff" than to ever achieve Warp 10, or even if you did, to drop out of it.

But - that's Treknology for you. We can just assume they know something that we don't about all of this, since they're many years in the future, that makes it possible somehow. And then repeat to ourselves, "it's just a show - we should really just relax".

 

[C.E. Evans]

True. But, what if you're already there?

In real physics, at infinite speed, you would have infinite mass, but zero time to exist in. Speculating on that, I'd have to think that that means that you'd just cease to exist, because, no time.

Ironically, that's what Roddenberry wrote in the TNG Writer's Bible regarding Warp 10. You wouldn't exist anymore. A case could also be made that if it's infinite, it's a one-way trip that one can't get off of.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The warp 10 physics in Threshold aren't much more preposterous than other things we just accept, or even some things in the real world that are true.

Except the lizard thing.

 

[Blamo]

I'd say the warp scales just got adjusted.

In TOS the Enterprise travelled at warp factor 6-8. Occasionally under exceptional circumstances they travelled at at warp speeds in excess of factor 12 (can't remember the exact numbers).

Then the Excelsior happened and the jump in warp speed probably made them decide to change the warp scale to a curve, with 10 being infinite.

With the speeds the ships were reaching in the late 24th century (like warp 9.96), in some versions of the future they probably decided to switch back.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Have you ever been stuck in New Jersey traffic?

L.A. traffic is worse.