Ah...
I vaguely remember seeing that episode, but I don't recall seeing anything 'racist'...
Just a typical VOY episode.
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Wait... was TNG racist?
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Ah...
I vaguely remember seeing that episode, but I don't recall seeing anything 'racist'...
Just a typical VOY episode.
I too, don't believe there was any mean spirited racism or even any light hearted racism in TNG or any Trek series.
In fact just the opposite - I think the writers, or at least some of them, wanted show inclusiveness.
Some of them wanted go much further with a certain theme or issue than what the network would allow.
TOS was in a most strange and interesting position-it was much closer to racism in its day, so it would try to tackle the subject with themes and metaphors or sometimes even directly.
(The part where Uhura is called an 'Enchanting Negress' the episode with 'black on one side, white on the other side' or just stating we have evolved beyond judging people by their appearance etc. )
And yet, on the other hand;
With TOS, whenever the crew would visit a planet, even at the far reaches of the Galaxy, the inhabitants almost always looked like earth humans, usually Caucasian, with an american accent.
And this was mainly because of fear of the viewers reaction, the network's reaction,and discomfort at trying something new...
In fact just the opposite - I think the writers, or at least some of them, wanted show inclusiveness.
Some of them wanted go much further with a certain theme or issue than what the network would allow.
TOS was in a most strange and interesting position-it was much closer to racism in its day, so it would try to tackle the subject with themes and metaphors or sometimes even directly.
(The part where Uhura is called an 'Enchanting Negress' the episode with 'black on one side, white on the other side' or just stating we have evolved beyond judging people by their appearance etc. )
And yet, on the other hand;
With TOS, whenever the crew would visit a planet, even at the far reaches of the Galaxy, the inhabitants almost always looked like earth humans, usually Caucasian, with an american accent.
And this was mainly because of fear of the viewers reaction, the network's reaction,and discomfort at trying something new...
The result of her work don't come near to convincing me that she was writing Janeway better than any of the other VOY stuff. IMO, Kira was written much better even though all the DS9 staff writers were male.
And it's interesting to note that he offensive Irish stereotypes of "Up the Long Ladder" were apparently originally an idea that came from an Irishman. According to episode writer Melinda Snodgrass, they idea to make them Irish came from Maurice Hurley, "who is a major Irishman and leads the Saint Patrick's Day parade. When I was describing to him what I wanted to do, I was trying to come up with an analogy, and I said it was like a little village of Irish tinkerers, and he loved it so much he made me make them Irish tinkerers. I said okay, and that's how it came about." http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Up_The_Long_Ladder_%28episode%29 Go figure.
Just because someone belongs to a certain group of people defined by gender or ethnicity, doesn't necessarily make them the perfect spokesperson for that group, and doesn't guarantee that they'd be great at writing characters from the same group. There are lots of female writers who do a shitty job (IMO) of writing female characters, just as there are lots of male writers who do the same.
TheGodBen, who is Irish, feels otherwise.
http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3207749&postcount=2193
http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3210728&postcount=2199
http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3212937&postcount=2205
http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3233233&postcount=2256
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Hmmm....
Granted it would have cost them less if they had humanoid aliens, but I highly doubt the cost would have changed if their humanoid aliens were multi-racial.
As was brought out by another poster, the casting was majority Caucasian (which is not very Roddenberry-esque, I say).
That takes us back to 'Star Trek: Insurrection' where it had the paradise Baku planet depicted as being beautiful and all-Caucasian...
It's interesting that Brent Spiner wasn't vocal on that, seeing that he was very vocal against the majority dark-skinned race in 'Code of Honor;' his comment was something to the affect (in regards to 'Code of Honor'): 'A 1940s depiction of tribal Africa...'
Well, I would say 'Star Trek: Insurrection' is a 1920s, D.W. Griffith-like wet dream, as well as a white supremacist's wet-dream...
That is a film(i.e. 'Insurrecton') that definitely does not fit the Roddenberry mold of what a multi-racial future should be.
I have to disagree; and many others will disagree.
When you get into one racial background writing another, there could be problems....
'What's Happening Now' was a 1980's sequel to the show 'What's Happening' from the 70s...and it was so obvious the writers were white...basically because the way the characters talked and acted, and the way the stories were written.
Even on some shows or movies depicting Asians in the 80s are written in a stereotypical manner. (Usually the male has to speak with an accent, and the female sometimes speaks perfect English...and--usually--falls for the white hero at first sight).
I don't always agree with Spike Lee, but the film Malcolm X was initially going to focus on a white character rather than Malcolm X himself (this was if the film was to be helmed by the white director Norman Jewison). Of course, Spike Lee was able to get the project going with him at the helm, and we got the movie that was eventually released.
So, yeah...In regards to racial depictions or even gender depictions, sometimes those of the race or gender know better than those who are not of x-race or x-gender...
Of course, if research and an honest portrayal in put into the work there can be exceptions...
Well, it's been a very long while since I've seen the episode; and, as we've seen in this thread there are a lot of opinions on episodes, movies, characters, etc...so possibly TheGodBen would have more knowledge of that said episode than I.
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I'm not disputing that people who belong to a certain group are much more likely to have the necessary experience and insight into writing about that group of people. But being from that group in no way guarantees that you will actually write about that group well - for starters, it depends on whether you're a good writer at all. And it most certainly doesn't mean that you can represent the entire group of people in a way that all or most of its members could relate to. Case in point, while it's good to have insight from a woman who's been pregnant on the emotions and hormonal reactions of women during pregnancy (for example, Nana Visitor says she had to tell the male writers that Kira would actually have developed an attachment to the baby she was carrying, even if it wasn't her offspring ). But you can't just assume that having a woman on the staff will make your female characters awesome no more than you can assume that having a man on the staff means that your male characters will be amazing and that every man will relate to them. There's a bunch of articles and books written by women and meant to be about female experience that I don't relate at all or vehemently disagree with.
And, as the above example of "Up the Long Ladder" and "Fair Haven/Spirit Folk" shows, you can't assume that having an Irishman as one of the producers/writers guarantees that the portrayal of Irish characters will not be horribly offensive to some Irish viewers. You're very unlikely to get a consensus in any ethnic, national, religious etc. group on what the proper representations of the group are - more likely, you'll find the harshest disagreements and opposed views among the members of the group.
I'd like to point out that whenever the specific insult of "half breed" was used it was to deliberately elicit a response from Spock. To make him angry (this side of paradise and Trek2009) or show him something was amiss (what are little girls made of). McCoys "Green-blooded hobgoblin" comments are a different issue entirely.
It's because no matter what they choose, someone will criticize them for it. If they match races it's not being supportive of multi-racial marriages, and if they are multi-racial they are accused of implying that a member of the same race wasn't good enough for the minority member of the couple. See the discussion of "code of honor"
Plus you know they would have gotten a ton of flak if they gave the Daystrom family a "race-lift", to use the term from TVtropes. They'd be accused to believing, well I'm not sure what, something bad about black people.
Yeah, you're correct...
In the 90s, there were various black directors (and even black rappers) trying to depict the 'reality' of black life. That so-called reality were movies such as: 'Menace II Society'....'Boyz in the Hood'...and so forth.
Not too mention, the gangsta rap with negative portrayals of women, the 'n' word...etc...
Of course, we're (i.e. black people) are slowly but surely showing that we are not a monolithic people....but diverse.(Will Smith is one who is pretty positive, and non-stereotypical in his films...although, I question that certain scene in 'Bad Boys II')...
Of course, I hope to show a little more of that diversity as I work towards my goals to work in Asian films as well as US films.
To paraphrase another Kirk, 'The job is all about risks.'
In the 60s, they decided to go with a multi-racial cast...yet, they would be afraid to go even further in the 80s?
Hmmm....
There were those criticizing the 2009 film for going backward...setting the era in the Kirk/Spock time, yet, TNG would be literally going backward because they are afraid of change...
They had no problem depicting two Asian women(Keiko and Alyssa) with white male characters...why should they be afraid of including blacks, Latino, and others in there?
That not very Roddenberry-esque....
Of course TNG is racist! Well, in the first season at least.
They made a black guy drive the ship!
They made a black guy drive the ship!
That doesn't make any sense.
They also had an Asian: Ensign Lien T'su (Arsenal of Freedom)...and a Latino: Lieutenant Torres (Encounter at Farpoint) 'drive' the ship as well...
And that same 'black guy' commanded the ship during Arsenal of Freedom...
...In the first season, at least.
(As aforementioned, that post doesn't make any sense....)
If I were at home and not work I would have photoshopped Geordi onto the Driving Miss Daisy poster to nail the joke home.
Sorry, I have a dry sense of humor. Doesn't always translate on paper. :P
Sorry, I have a dry sense of humor. Doesn't always translate on paper. :P
^
I got it right away. But you're attempting to inject humor into a debate...especially a racial one. The odds of it being well received by those in the heat of fighting their point are slim at best. But for those of us sitting back, eating popcorn, and watching the fire works, yeah, we get it.
I got it right away. But you're attempting to inject humor into a debate...especially a racial one. The odds of it being well received by those in the heat of fighting their point are slim at best. But for those of us sitting back, eating popcorn, and watching the fire works, yeah, we get it.
Plus there is at least one black Captain in Season 1 ('Conspiracy'), and, if I recall, a few black Admirals, as well.
Although a Black Admiral just totally falls into that hoary old 'Black Admiral who is a total badass' cliche.
Yeah, Captain Tryla Scott. She was cool; and sexy in that jumpsuit.
I personally don't recall any Admirals on TNG who fit that description....Although a Black Admiral just totally falls into that hoary old 'Black Admiral who is a total badass' cliche.
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
Sometimes when people say something is racist...I'd like to ask someone of that 'race' to comment on the thing in question.
Y'know, just to make sure it's not a bunch of white people trying to make themselves look holier than thou.
Y'know, just to make sure it's not a bunch of white people trying to make themselves look holier than thou.
Although a Black Admiral just totally falls into that hoary old 'Black Admiral who is a total badass' cliche.
Everything is a cliché.
Not entirely.
As aforementioned, I don't recall seeing any 'bad ass' Admiral who happened to have been black. Unless someone can jog my memory.
The only dark-skinned 'bad asses' I know were Sisko...the oft-mentioned Robau(who is actually made to be a bad-ass by ST fans)...and Uhura; and I don't recall any of them being Admirals.
TNG tended to have one off minor black or non-black characters who showed up for minor scenes every now and then. (Especially after the first season as the characters in the background and guest shots became less diverse; a pre-dominantly Caucasian cast in a supposedly mult-racial future).
Now, if we're talking about a cliché in that regard--TNG or sci-fi--at the time...then yes.
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I remember the admiral or commodore who presided over Kirks court martial /trial in TOS.
He appeared to be presiding over other admiral judges as well.
His portrayal was a 3 dimensional, normal portrayal of an admiral presiding over a trial, however small that role was.
I like admiral Shante? who heard Picard's request for ships in Redemption 2.
I like the calm, quiet, competent portrayals - - doesn't have to be big time action, or something to make it obvious that they're using a black actor for the role, for the sake of racial diversity.
A way to try to portray racial diversity, yet it becomes awkward later on when the show returns to the 'normal' formula.
Perhaps Asians and some other ethnicities suffer even worse in this aspect.
He appeared to be presiding over other admiral judges as well.
His portrayal was a 3 dimensional, normal portrayal of an admiral presiding over a trial, however small that role was.
I like admiral Shante? who heard Picard's request for ships in Redemption 2.
I like the calm, quiet, competent portrayals - - doesn't have to be big time action, or something to make it obvious that they're using a black actor for the role, for the sake of racial diversity.
A way to try to portray racial diversity, yet it becomes awkward later on when the show returns to the 'normal' formula.
Perhaps Asians and some other ethnicities suffer even worse in this aspect.
Re: Wait... was TNG racist? (SPOILERS IN THIS POST)
Commodore Stone...portrayed by Percy Rodriguez.
Yes, I liked his character.
In one of the Phase II episodes, it was so obvious they were trying to show a 'normal' gay couple...yet it came off like they were trying to make an 'in your face' statement.
In the current Resident Evil: Afterlife, the sole Asian male character is a whimpering weakling. In one scene, Boris Kodjoe, Milla Jovovich, Ali Larter, and Wentworth Miller all have guns firing at a zombie onslaught...and the Asian character (who doesn't really have a name) is shaking scared while everyone else is in slo-mo looking cool. Interestingly, Jovovich's Alice character handed guns to other characters who didn't have weapons on them.
You can even say he (the aforementioned Asian character) is effeminate; however, of course, he gets killed...
SIDENOTE: In that same film, even Boris Kodjoe's Luther even gets 'stereotypical' in the final scenes...but, the Asian male character has it worse.
In regards to TNG, we really didn't have any strong Asian male characters. Sulu was 'there'...and is known from TOS.
Harry Kim from VOY isn't exactly 'strong;' he is whiny and weak several times in that particular Trek incarnation.
Of course, Daniel Dae Kim was on ENT very, very briefly before he had a bigger and better role on the more popular LOST. (Although, they were initially going to kill him off and have his onscreen wife, Sun go for Michael....but many Asian-Americans protested that because there was actually an Asian couple onscreen).
Keiko O'Brien..or Keiko Ishikawa, I do have to admit is a bit more strong (even though they stereotypically have her on the show to be married off to a white male character; as aforementioned also with Alyssa Ogawa...and possibly even the Hoshi Sato character from ENT).
I know there were some TNG episodes that featured Native Americans, but I haven't seen them to give a proper critical comment.
Commodore Stone...portrayed by Percy Rodriguez.
Yes, I liked his character.
That can go for anything actually, not just black performers:
In one of the Phase II episodes, it was so obvious they were trying to show a 'normal' gay couple...yet it came off like they were trying to make an 'in your face' statement.
In a way they do:
In the current Resident Evil: Afterlife, the sole Asian male character is a whimpering weakling. In one scene, Boris Kodjoe, Milla Jovovich, Ali Larter, and Wentworth Miller all have guns firing at a zombie onslaught...and the Asian character (who doesn't really have a name) is shaking scared while everyone else is in slo-mo looking cool. Interestingly, Jovovich's Alice character handed guns to other characters who didn't have weapons on them.
You can even say he (the aforementioned Asian character) is effeminate; however, of course, he gets killed...
SIDENOTE: In that same film, even Boris Kodjoe's Luther even gets 'stereotypical' in the final scenes...but, the Asian male character has it worse.
In regards to TNG, we really didn't have any strong Asian male characters. Sulu was 'there'...and is known from TOS.
Harry Kim from VOY isn't exactly 'strong;' he is whiny and weak several times in that particular Trek incarnation.
Of course, Daniel Dae Kim was on ENT very, very briefly before he had a bigger and better role on the more popular LOST. (Although, they were initially going to kill him off and have his onscreen wife, Sun go for Michael....but many Asian-Americans protested that because there was actually an Asian couple onscreen).
Keiko O'Brien..or Keiko Ishikawa, I do have to admit is a bit more strong (even though they stereotypically have her on the show to be married off to a white male character; as aforementioned also with Alyssa Ogawa...and possibly even the Hoshi Sato character from ENT).
I know there were some TNG episodes that featured Native Americans, but I haven't seen them to give a proper critical comment.
Re: Wait... was TNG racist? (SPOILERS IN THIS POST)
).
From what I've always heard, it had more to do with the fact that the audience at large loved Sun and Jin as a couple, which made the writers ditch the love triangle idea (fortunately... If only they had gotten rid of some other love triangles on that show
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