Wait... was TNG racist?

[indolover]

Dukat said that the Cardassian Union had existed for 500 years, not that the military had been in control that long. He was probably just referring to the Cardassian people as a whole.

The way Madred and Picard speak, the way the current Military government came to power about 40 years ago (I'm guessing Madred was about 50 years old, the same age as David Warner at the time).

Unless Cardassians age more slowly than Humans, as some Trek lit writers have assumed...

Actually, 40 years seems too recent, since that's how long the Occupation of Bajor is supposed to have lasted. Maybe it's something between 50 and 70 years (or even 100, depending on how long we assume the lifespan of a Cardassian to be).

Cardassians are diverse, like most other species. But in TNG/DS9 they were portrayed as being cruel and cold, which by and large they were. Cardassian society was based on near totalitarianism. There were persons such as Garak (who in my mind was not evil, but certainly could do bad things if he wished to or served his purpose), Tekeny Ghemor or Marritza, to balance Gul Dar'heel or Dukat, in fairness.

It's funny that so many people will name a former prominent member of the Cardassian version of Stasi/KGB (or if you're one of those fans enamoured of the Nazi Germany comparisons, Gestapo), former torturer, assassin and who knows what else, not to mention a pathological liar, as a good guy... because he's so cool, has great lines, is relatively reasonable and loves Cardassia... oh, and because he's on our heroes' side... (which he may not have been if he hadn't ended up in exile for whatever reason...)

You know, I've always loved Garak, but I find myself liking him a little less every time someone calls him a good guy.

The fact that we see persons such as Duras and his sisters and son, and Gowron (at least in latter DS9), to balance off honourable Klingons like Worf, Kurn, Martok and Kor doesn't mean that Klingons in general aren't a culture that believes in honour.

"Honor" is just a catchphrase that the Klingons use to justify whatever they're doing, even if it's most dishonorable, just like Humans will speak of tolerance and acceptance of other cultures even while they're being at their most prejudiced and arrogant. See "Sins of the Father" and "The House of Quark" for some examples of Klingon "honor" being nothing but a cover for political expediency or greed.

It depends how one defines good and bad. Didn't Sisko trick Romulans into war? Didn't Worf, for whatever reason, effectively abandon Alexander after the Enterprise-D was destroyed? Are these good actions? It never is a black and white thing.

As for Klingons, we saw they were nuanced, and not all gave a hoot about honour. At least it made them complex, and interestingly portrayed.

 

[Anwar]

Well, like you said it's a person-to-person thing. I can easily see lots of stuff in Trek as black-and-white, even the "gray" areas others see.

 

[garamet]

Roddenberry established the concept of highlighting racism as early as TOS. How many instances can you count of someone - from McCoy to the Guest Character of the Week to Kirk himself - addressing racist remarks to that "half-breed" Spock?

In TNG, the targets of human bigotry are Worf and Data.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Roddenberry established the concept of highlighting racism as early as TOS. How many instances can you count of someone - from McCoy to the Guest Character of the Week to Kirk himself - addressing racist remarks to that "half-breed" Spock?

Yeah, that REALLY rubs me the wrong way.

 

[exodus]

Roddenberry established the concept of highlighting racism as early as TOS. How many instances can you count of someone - from McCoy to the Guest Character of the Week to Kirk himself - addressing racist remarks to that "half-breed" Spock?

In TNG, the targets of human bigotry are Worf and Data.

Odo more so.
Folks in the Trek universe feared his kind so much they hunted them. In a way I can't blame them for forming the Dominion, their species would have wiped from existance possibly if not.

It's kinda why I like Voyager.
In that series, we're the hunted.
We're the ones that aren't wanted.

 

[Anwar]

Well, the fear of changlings is justified. Would you like having a bunch of folks going around with the ability to become anything, or turn their bodies into powerful weapons, knowing you have little to no defense against them? And we don't even know how much of what the Female told Odo was true about how they were hunted. Maybe a bunch of them just decided that they were the superior ones and deserved to rule the Universe.

It's like X-Men, humans DO have a right to fear mutants seeing how they are far stronger than humanity. It's why they make sure all anti-mutant humans are completely unlikable, otherwise we'd be able to sympathize with them and see their POV.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Well, the fear of changlings is justified. Would you like having a bunch of folks going around with the ability to become anything, or turn their bodies into powerful weapons, knowing you have little to no defense against them? And we don't even know how much of what the Female told Odo was true about how they were hunted. Maybe a bunch of them just decided that they were the superior ones and deserved to rule the Universe.

It's like X-Men, humans DO have a right to fear mutants seeing how they are far stronger than humanity. It's why they make sure all anti-mutant humans are completely unlikable, otherwise we'd be able to sympathize with them and see their POV.

Hmmm...

Roddenberry established the concept of highlighting racism as early as TOS. How many instances can you count of someone - from McCoy to the Guest Character of the Week to Kirk himself - addressing racist remarks to that "half-breed" Spock?

In TNG, the targets of human bigotry are Worf and Data.

Roddenberry established the concept of highlighting racism as early as TOS. How many instances can you count of someone - from McCoy to the Guest Character of the Week to Kirk himself - addressing racist remarks to that "half-breed" Spock?

Yeah, that REALLY rubs me the wrong way.

Yeah, unfortunately, JJ Abrams kept that aspect in the new film...since McCoy says something under his breath.

*

Another thing I found interesting:

*In the Star Trek Encyclopedia, it was stated that Dr. Leah Brahms was initially going to be a Dr. Daystrom, but a black actress couldn't be found.

This is interesting because this takes place 75+ years after TOS...and Trek makes it seem as if black people don't marry out. This is the case with Sisko, and Uhura (in 'Man Trap') and even Jake....and even with Tuvok...(as if they are afraid to have someone who is non-black portray a love interest).

We've already seen the aforementioned Keiko (Asian) and Miles (white) and Alyssa (Asian) and unnamed crewman (white)...as well as Harry Kim (Asian) and his girlfriends (white)....and even in the ENT episode E2 where a descendant of Archer was obviously Asian.

Richard Daystrom's descendant could have also been Asian, Native American, Vulcan, Latin, Irish....etc...

It's a bit narrow-minded on their part to not have diversity in that area; I personally would have welcomed Susan Gibney as Dr. 'Leah' Daystrom....

Again, I liked that JJ Abrams 'mixed it up' a little...with Uhura and Spock...(You probably would have never seen that in previous Trek or TNG).
​

 

[Nightdiamond]

Hmmm...

Yeah, unfortunately, JJ Abrams kept that aspect in the new film...since McCoy says something under his breath.

*

Another thing I found interesting:

*In the Star Trek Encyclopedia, it was stated that Dr. Leah Brahms was initially going to be a Dr. Daystrom, but a black actress couldn't be found.

This is interesting because this takes place 75+ years after TOS...and Trek makes it seem as if black people don't marry out. This is the case with Sisko, and Uhura (in 'Man Trap') and even Jake....and even with Tuvok...(as if they are afraid to have someone who is non-black portray a love interest).

We've already seen the aforementioned Keiko (Asian) and Miles (white) and Alyssa (Asian) and unnamed crewman (white)...as well as Harry Kim (Asian) and his girlfriends (white)....and even in the ENT episode E2 where a descendant of Archer was obviously Asian.

Richard Daystrom's descendant could have also been Asian, Native American, Vulcan, Latin, Irish....etc...

It's a bit narrow-minded on their part to not have diversity in that area; I personally would have welcomed Susan Gibney as Dr. 'Leah' Daystrom....

Again, I liked that JJ Abrams 'mixed it up' a little...with Uhura and Spock...(You probably would have never seen that in previous Trek or TNG).
​

Good catch-

It's like Trek sometimes has a 24th philosophy, but ends up executing a 20th century guideline.

Their heart and intention is in the right place, though.

But the message seems to get lost in translation somewhere.

If humans are evolved beyond bigotry, then it's hard to see why why 24th century humans will quickly use terms like that towards Spock at the first opportunity.

Remember the Starfleet officer that resented Spock simply because he looked similar to a Romulan, knowing full well they're from a separate culture and planet?

Maybe humans are not bigoted towards other humans but have yet to advanced that way with aliens?

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Good catch-

It's like Trek sometimes has a 24th philosophy, but ends up executing a 20th century guideline.

Exactly...

Their heart and intention is in the right place, though.

Maybe.

Although, discussions like this can lead them (producers/writers/directors)in the right directions, I think.

But the message seems to get lost in translation somewhere.

If humans are evolved beyond bigotry, then it's hard to see why why 24th century humans will quickly use terms like that towards Spock at the first opportunity.

Remember the Starfleet officer that resented Spock simply because he looked similar to a Romulan, knowing full well they're from a separate culture and planet?

Maybe humans are not bigoted towards other humans but have yet to advanced that way with aliens?

Maybe. Although, maybe there still is racism within humanity...even in the Trekverse....

There's a lot we didn't think was there in the Trekverse, but turned up in novels, films, etc...

But, good thoughts, though.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think Trek humanity is so sure of its moral superiority because they think they solved all of their internal problems that they refuse to see that in a subtler way, they are really just like all of the other racists out there in the Trekiverse. Just because they don't hunt down and KILL other races for the hell of it, or enslave them, doesn't make them any less racist.

And they also have not solved all of their problems within humanity, too. I could definitely talk about some of the last "acceptable" prejudices within the human race, but it would definitely derail this thread, because it isn't a matter of skin color or gender.

At least in my own writing...I haven't done much work with Starfleet characters yet, but I treat the Federation as the subtle mirror of the Cardassian Union. What one does outwardly and grotesquely, the other does sneakily and veiled behind a lot of pretty words.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Only honour always means "let's bang our skulls together and respond to every stupid challenge even if it should kill us". They're all "warriors" and "irritable" and have "a temper". Every single one of 'em. Even the half ones, like Banana Torres.

Now if that isn't a stereotype, I don't know what is.

That is indeed a stereotype; one of the reasons I'm not too fond of the Klingons...

Banana Torres could be okay....at times.

True, especially in the later series, when she didn't blame everything on her "temper". Like everyone else didn't have bad days, too.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I think Trek humanity is so sure of its moral superiority because they think they solved all of their internal problems that they refuse to see that in a subtler way, they are really just like all of the other racists out there in the Trekiverse. Just because they don't hunt down and KILL other races for the hell of it, or enslave them, doesn't make them any less racist.

And they also have not solved all of their problems within humanity, too. I could definitely talk about some of the last "acceptable" prejudices within the human race, but it would definitely derail this thread, because it isn't a matter of skin color or gender.

At least in my own writing...I haven't done much work with Starfleet characters yet, but I treat the Federation as the subtle mirror of the Cardassian Union. What one does outwardly and grotesquely, the other does sneakily and veiled behind a lot of pretty words.

The interesting thing is even Trek fans have changed since TOS, TNG...DS9, VOY...etc...

There are different points of views on some things, even similar views....(even with the internet; which, btw, I'm typing this as I'm literally moving) we have more people 'coming out' with concerns and criticisms...

I think it's good...

I will say this, which will reiterate my previous post: Trek isn't everything we thought it was, but discussions like this will hopefully build on what Trek should be.

True, especially in the later series, when she didn't blame everything on her "temper". Like everyone else didn't have bad days, too.

I agree.

With me, it sometimes felt as if she wasn't comfortable in her own skin. Later on, it did seem like she felt more comfortable with her heritage.

 

[Anwar]

I think Trek humanity is so sure of its moral superiority because they think they solved all of their internal problems that they refuse to see that in a subtler way, they are really just like all of the other racists out there in the Trekiverse. Just because they don't hunt down and KILL other races for the hell of it, or enslave them, doesn't make them any less racist.

I'd think that NOT going around and killing other species simply for existing would make you at least a bit better than those that DO.

Seriously, it's really hard to keep railing on humans for their minor imperfections when it's shown that the others are FAR worse. Being irritated by humans being "perfect"? Fine, no problems there. But honestly thinking they're WORSE than others who've actually committed genocide, slavery, openly being galactic dicks? I don't think so.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Not necessarily worse in terms of a body count, but far, far more hypocritical and self-deluded.

 

[Anwar]

"Necessarily"? You'd be okay with humans if they actually DID go around enslaving and destroying species for no reason?

And anyways, nothing says that they aren't racist. They do make mentions of being more "evolved" and stuff, and frankly it's a deserved arrogance if a little irritating. They aren't hypocritical or self-deluded when you take notice just how the non-Feds do act and that the Feds really ARE the better ones in comparison.

I mean honestly, the Cardassians are by far the more deluded people when you look at it.

 

[Nightdiamond]

"Necessarily"? You'd be okay with humans if they actually DID go around enslaving and destroying species for no reason?

And anyways, nothing says that they aren't racist. They do make mentions of being more "evolved" and stuff, and frankly it's a deserved arrogance if a little irritating. They aren't hypocritical or self-deluded when you take notice just how the non-Feds do act and that the Feds really ARE the better ones in comparison.

I mean honestly, the Cardassians are by far the more deluded people when you look at it.

Well, that's one hell of an argument....

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

"Necessarily"? You'd be okay with humans if they actually DID go around enslaving and destroying species for no reason?

It should be obvious that I do not accept such activities. But not accepting such activities doesn't mean I should turn a blind eye to the substitutes that don't involve physical violence. I'm not about to lower my standards.

(I DO, however, believe that Federation hypocrisy has a serious body count attached to it--often by inaction instead of action.)

And anyways, nothing says that they aren't racist. They do make mentions of being more "evolved" and stuff, and frankly it's a deserved arrogance if a little irritating. They aren't hypocritical or self-deluded when you take notice just how the non-Feds do act and that the Feds really ARE the better ones in comparison.

I mean honestly, the Cardassians are by far the more deluded people when you look at it.

In the end, though, they are brought low to the point where they have no choice but to face themselves and what they have become, in its full ugliness. They did build up a horrible delusion for themselves, but it comes tumbling down--and being fully exposed, they actually have a chance to fix themselves.

As long as the Federation continues to believe it has nothing wrong, though, they will never begin to change themselves.

 

[Neutral Zone]

I have been on other forums where the racism thing has been bought up in other programmes or books. I once saw on a harry Potter forum that the books were racist because a girl dumped a boy (obviously they were from different racial backgrounds}. But they forgot to mention that at the end ofthe books that the same discriminated against group was in the most powerful postion of this imaginary world. It appears to me that if you want to find fault with something you can.

 

[Nightdiamond]

One minor problem with TNG's portrayal of Cardassians, is that they show mostly the military interactions with them, so of course you'll see the more evil, vicious, 'torture you for information' ones.

Even then, we see at least a couple examples of broad minded, sensible Cardassians.

With DS9 we get a chance to see some of the civilian ones and then we start seeing 3 dimensional, remorseful, free thinking Cardassians.

It is true that 24th century humans have a way of boasting about their 'evolution' and comparing themselves to other cultures, but it is true -some of it well deserved.

But there are some contradictions- In "Farpoint", Data said "prejudice is very human".

Later, when he was assigned to command a ship, "Redemption" his first officer must have innocently stereotyped just about every other race in the Quadrant.

In Voyager, BE' lana claimed other children made fun of her as a child.

There are quite a few examples of 24th century humans being less than open minded with other cultures albeit mild, nothing extreme.

Later on, Quark sort handed that back to them with his speech to Sisko in the "Jem Hadar."

 

[Anwar]

But Quark's own speech made no sense, because it had been shown that the Ferengi DO do the very things he claim they never did: Slavery, galactic wars, etc. Heck, at that point the Ferengi still had their women running around naked all the time.

If it had been, say, a Bajoran or something to say that then it'd be more believable. As it stands it sounded good at the moment but it really made Quark out to be a hypocrite (like Spock).

Data's XO in "Redemption", yes he was bigoted (however unintentionally) but the show hardly portrayed him in the right for his attitude. It was like Stiles from "Balance of Terror" where his racism was brought up repeatedly as a bad, detrimental thing.

It just seems like some folk around here want the humans to be the utter scum of the Universe and have every single alien they encounter rant about how worthless they are.