Wait... was TNG racist?

[exodus]

Geordi fits in with the "black nerd with glasses" stereotype which was huge in the 1980s. Whenever some show needed a random "computer whiz" character, it always seemed to be some bespeckled black kid. This got to be such a huge cliche that it was parodied by Urkel in whatever that show was.

To be fair, I think bespeckled kids were always nerded-up in the 1980s, not just black kids. White kids and Asian kids would wear giant frames too in TV/Film to denote nerdiness. (I can't recall any Latino/Hispanic examples, though).

Though I did like Dwayne Wayne from A Different World. He was one of the first "cool" nerds, and he had the flip-up shades over his glasses.

Good one, Cyke.
Spike Lee's character Marz Blackmon from "She's Gotta Have It" & Nike commercials springs to mind too. It was Spike's "Skool Daze" that inspired "A Different World" and many of the characters there in.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Aside from the very unfortunate "Code of Honor" episode, I can't see how you can call TNG racist - or any other Trek series for that matter. From TOS on, Trek has been pretty inclusive with the casting of non-white actors in prominent "hero" roles. TOS had a black woman and an Asian man, TNG had several black actors, as did DS9, and VOY had a black actor, a Native American, a Hispanic, and an Asian.

However, in regards to the 'Code of Honor' episode, I have yet to hear those who are non-White complain about the episode.

It can go both ways, however:

I'm sure there are some who could complain about the predominant white society that 'Star Trek: Insurrection' wanted to portray.

And what about TOS 'The Paradise Syndrome'? We have a white male (Kirk) who comes to save the savage Indians, and fall for the beautiful Indian woman (Marimanee) who is also loved by an Indian warrior(Salish)....who feels threatened by the white male.

And the story of the white male being taken in by Native Americans had been done so much before; as we recall, Star Trek (TOS) came out during the time when the Western was the most popular genre.

'Aquiel' is considered a low episode, but it features Geordi LaForge in a romantic setting with an attractive lady. (If that same episode had featured Picard or Riker, would it have gotten the same flak?)

We can even go so far to look at 'Sub Rosa,' which features Beverly Crusher (white, but she's an underused female in the series) in a romantic setting. (It is also considered a low point in TNG, interestingly, by some). Again, if the story featured Picard or Riker in the same predicament...would it have been considered a high point, Hugo-award winning moment in Star Trek history?

I noticed something else interesting, in reading these posts:

I think the OP had a 'friend' (black, IIRC) who thought that the portrayal of Geordi, Worf were stereotypes; especially during the 80s..which is highly different now. However, some of the posters--white--didn't find anything wrong with it.

'How dare they look for racism! People will look for racism anywhere! Star Trek is above racism!'

With the exception of:

'Code of Honor' which (everytime this topic comes up, which is several times a month) majority of white Trek fans have a problem with the episode.

I have still, to this day, have not heard a black, Asian, or non-white Latino (who is a vocal Trek fan) complain about it.

So yes, I would agree:

Some people WOULD look for racism anywhere...especially if they see something they are not used to.

Hate to break it to you, but there are people of color who do hate 'Code Of Honor', you just don't know then very well.

You're a couple of posts too late, as that has already been addressed....

As for what you said above, I agree: that's why I try not to go to
a certain website that focuses on racial matters anymore, due to this kind of behavior.

I do not as see this as racially offensive, simply because all the actors cast were from a single racial group, the Ligonians' weren't depicted as particularly stupid or devious. Unless you can say that it still would have been racist if the cast had been completely European, East Asia or Arabic.

Interesting...

I guess you aren't aware of the stereotype that black men dismiss black women for white ones due to what they see as a status symbol of being more acceptable within white society. It's exactly what's being shown within the ep. itself

Well, let me put this (and I'm not saying your comments are right or wrong):

In VOY, all of the women Harry Kim was paired with were white...(Would Harry feel he is more ingrained in white society if he only pursues white females?)

However, in TNG, they had Keiko--an Asian woman--marry a white man (Miles O'Brien). On top of that, they had Alyssa Ogawa also with a white man. So, we can also argue(based on what you said with Lutan and Tasha Yar) these Asian women--Ogawa and Keiko--felt they were rising up in status because they were pairing themselves with white males. (And there is the further stereotype of Asian women who dismiss Asian males for white males, and to a lesser extent black males).

Now, we can also argue if Tasha Yar was a hot, black/Asian/or Latino female...there may have not been an issue. (Of course, since this particular episode had many black individuals, no doubt there would have been something that causes controversy).

I completely see what you're saying but IMO(and that of many of my race) the fact that the woman in "Code Of Honor" were made to fight for the affections of the "King" as vulgar & animalistic. Which is another racist stereotype put upon blacks as far back as slavery. It paints black people as less than human but rather like animals and portrays black women as less than diginifed and objects for their man's amusement. Not as people to be honored and respected or as equals. It's the very reason why the old "Tazan" films are seen as racist as well. The blacks in "Code.." are shown to be nothing more than monkey spear chuckers.

While Kim & Keiko were paired with white partners, they still did so with dignity. Showing that it was also a cultural pairing, the example was O'Brian embraced Keiko's Asian culture(They had a Japanese style wedding, as one example) as much as he did his own. He didn't take her and try to break her to his will or impose his culture on her or treat her as less than human. They treated each other as equals. Most times Keiko was the dominate one in the relationship, not the stereotype of the submissive Asian female. I feel they broke stereotype with her, while in "Code.." they embrassed it. It baffles me that any American that took history or is aware the events of slavery through the Civil Rights movement could be that unaware that such an ep. wouldn't be seen as racist.

Actually Keiko did come off as the stereotypical Asian female in TNG; it wasn't until DS9 that she seemed to have been the dominant one in the relationship. Even in the 80s, in various movies and television shows, it was another stereotype to have Asian women paired with/saved by white men.

You can even stretch it to say that Keiko initially was perceived to be the perfect 'China Doll.' (The reason she dressed in traditional garb); and I question as to how Keiko and Alyssa are dignified just because they are being paired with white males...

Would they less dignified if they were paired with non-white males?

Many Asian Americans still wonder when they are going to have an Asian couple onscreen. 'Lost' had people concerned because Daniel Dae Kim was going to be killed off, and Yun-jin Kim (Sun)paired off with Michael; and we're talking about years after TNG.

And again, I appreciate your comments, but I still disagree.

I don't recall anyone being a slave in 'Code of Honor;' sure Lutan was chauvinistic, which is why he got what was coming to him. (Not due to anyone being a slave).

If we look elsewhere, the Orion slave girls are not necessarily treated as 'equals.' (Yet, in some cases they are perceived as devious and animalistic; of course, they're green).

As aforementioned, 'The Paradise Syndrome' had the stereotype of the white man (Kirk) falling for/saving by the beautiful Native American girl (Marimanee) and being threatened by the harsh Native American man (Salish). Years before this episode, 'The Searchers' made a commentary on Native American men and white women...i.e. saving the purity of white females from Native American men....but, we can look at 'The Paradise Syndrome' as having no problem if it is a white male and Native American female.

Furthermore, I don't recall any men or women 'speak-chucking' in that episode or any jungle setting in that episode....also, from what I understand,Yareena (the dark-skinned female) became the dominant one at the end of the episode, since Lutan had to stand behind her...while she took a man who would respect her.

The world of the future is idealised...we will have no racism, no stereotypes...and no Lieutenant Yar!

 

[exodus]

However, in regards to the 'Code of Honor' episode, I have yet to hear those who are non-White complain about the episode.

It can go both ways, however:

I'm sure there are some who could complain about the predominant white society that 'Star Trek: Insurrection' wanted to portray.

And what about TOS 'The Paradise Syndrome'? We have a white male (Kirk) who comes to save the savage Indians, and fall for the beautiful Indian woman (Marimanee) who is also loved by an Indian warrior(Salish)....who feels threatened by the white male.

And the story of the white male being taken in by Native Americans had been done so much before; as we recall, Star Trek (TOS) came out during the time when the Western was the most popular genre.

'Aquiel' is considered a low episode, but it features Geordi LaForge in a romantic setting with an attractive lady. (If that same episode had featured Picard or Riker, would it have gotten the same flak?)

We can even go so far to look at 'Sub Rosa,' which features Beverly Crusher (white, but she's an underused female in the series) in a romantic setting. (It is also considered a low point in TNG, interestingly, by some). Again, if the story featured Picard or Riker in the same predicament...would it have been considered a high point, Hugo-award winning moment in Star Trek history?

I noticed something else interesting, in reading these posts:

I think the OP had a 'friend' (black, IIRC) who thought that the portrayal of Geordi, Worf were stereotypes; especially during the 80s..which is highly different now. However, some of the posters--white--didn't find anything wrong with it.

'How dare they look for racism! People will look for racism anywhere! Star Trek is above racism!'

With the exception of:

'Code of Honor' which (everytime this topic comes up, which is several times a month) majority of white Trek fans have a problem with the episode.

I have still, to this day, have not heard a black, Asian, or non-white Latino (who is a vocal Trek fan) complain about it.

So yes, I would agree:

Some people WOULD look for racism anywhere...especially if they see something they are not used to.

Hate to break it to you, but there are people of color who do hate 'Code Of Honor', you just don't know then very well.

As for what you said above, I agree: that's why I try not to go to
a certain website that focuses on racial matters anymore, due to this kind of behavior.

You're a couple of posts too late, as that has already been addressed....

Interesting...



Well, let me put this (and I'm not saying your comments are right or wrong):

In VOY, all of the women Harry Kim was paired with were white...(Would Harry feel he is more ingrained in white society if he only pursues white females?)

However, in TNG, they had Keiko--an Asian woman--marry a white man (Miles O'Brien). On top of that, they had Alyssa Ogawa also with a white man. So, we can also argue(based on what you said with Lutan and Tasha Yar) these Asian women--Ogawa and Keiko--felt they were rising up in status because they were pairing themselves with white males. (And there is the further stereotype of Asian women who dismiss Asian males for white males, and to a lesser extent black males).

Now, we can also argue if Tasha Yar was a hot, black/Asian/or Latino female...there may have not been an issue. (Of course, since this particular episode had many black individuals, no doubt there would have been something that causes controversy).

I completely see what you're saying but IMO(and that of many of my race) the fact that the woman in "Code Of Honor" were made to fight for the affections of the "King" as vulgar & animalistic. Which is another racist stereotype put upon blacks as far back as slavery. It paints black people as less than human but rather like animals and portrays black women as less than diginifed and objects for their man's amusement. Not as people to be honored and respected or as equals. It's the very reason why the old "Tazan" films are seen as racist as well. The blacks in "Code.." are shown to be nothing more than monkey spear chuckers.

While Kim & Keiko were paired with white partners, they still did so with dignity. Showing that it was also a cultural pairing, the example was O'Brian embraced Keiko's Asian culture(They had a Japanese style wedding, as one example) as much as he did his own. He didn't take her and try to break her to his will or impose his culture on her or treat her as less than human. They treated each other as equals. Most times Keiko was the dominate one in the relationship, not the stereotype of the submissive Asian female. I feel they broke stereotype with her, while in "Code.." they embrassed it. It baffles me that any American that took history or is aware the events of slavery through the Civil Rights movement could be that unaware that such an ep. wouldn't be seen as racist.

Actually Keiko did come off as the stereotypical Asian female in TNG; it wasn't until DS9 that she seemed to have been the dominant one in the relationship.

Even in the 80s, in movies and television shows, it was another stereotype to have Asian women paired with/saved by white men.

And again, I appreciate your comments, but I still disagree.

I don't recall anyone being a slave in 'Code of Honor'; sure Lutan was chauvinistic, which is why he got what was coming to him.

While I'm disappointed that you disagree, I appreciate that you took the time to listen to another point of view.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Hate to break it to you, but there are people of color who do hate 'Code Of Honor', you just don't know then very well.

As for what you said above, I agree: that's why I try not to go to
a certain website that focuses on racial matters anymore, due to this kind of behavior.

You're a couple of posts too late, as that has already been addressed....

I completely see what you're saying but IMO(and that of many of my race) the fact that the woman in "Code Of Honor" were made to fight for the affections of the "King" as vulgar & animalistic. Which is another racist stereotype put upon blacks as far back as slavery. It paints black people as less than human but rather like animals and portrays black women as less than diginifed and objects for their man's amusement. Not as people to be honored and respected or as equals. It's the very reason why the old "Tazan" films are seen as racist as well. The blacks in "Code.." are shown to be nothing more than monkey spear chuckers.

While Kim & Keiko were paired with white partners, they still did so with dignity. Showing that it was also a cultural pairing, the example was O'Brian embraced Keiko's Asian culture(They had a Japanese style wedding, as one example) as much as he did his own. He didn't take her and try to break her to his will or impose his culture on her or treat her as less than human. They treated each other as equals. Most times Keiko was the dominate one in the relationship, not the stereotype of the submissive Asian female. I feel they broke stereotype with her, while in "Code.." they embrassed it. It baffles me that any American that took history or is aware the events of slavery through the Civil Rights movement could be that unaware that such an ep. wouldn't be seen as racist.

Actually Keiko did come off as the stereotypical Asian female in TNG; it wasn't until DS9 that she seemed to have been the dominant one in the relationship.

Even in the 80s, in movies and television shows, it was another stereotype to have Asian women paired with/saved by white men.

And again, I appreciate your comments, but I still disagree.

I don't recall anyone being a slave in 'Code of Honor'; sure Lutan was chauvinistic, which is why he got what was coming to him.

While I'm disappointed that you disagree, I appreciate that you took the time to listen to another point of view.

 

[exodus]

However, in regards to the 'Code of Honor' episode, I have yet to hear those who are non-White complain about the episode.

It can go both ways, however:

I'm sure there are some who could complain about the predominant white society that 'Star Trek: Insurrection' wanted to portray.

And what about TOS 'The Paradise Syndrome'? We have a white male (Kirk) who comes to save the savage Indians, and fall for the beautiful Indian woman (Marimanee) who is also loved by an Indian warrior(Salish)....who feels threatened by the white male.

And the story of the white male being taken in by Native Americans had been done so much before; as we recall, Star Trek (TOS) came out during the time when the Western was the most popular genre.

'Aquiel' is considered a low episode, but it features Geordi LaForge in a romantic setting with an attractive lady. (If that same episode had featured Picard or Riker, would it have gotten the same flak?)

We can even go so far to look at 'Sub Rosa,' which features Beverly Crusher (white, but she's an underused female in the series) in a romantic setting. (It is also considered a low point in TNG, interestingly, by some). Again, if the story featured Picard or Riker in the same predicament...would it have been considered a high point, Hugo-award winning moment in Star Trek history?

I noticed something else interesting, in reading these posts:

I think the OP had a 'friend' (black, IIRC) who thought that the portrayal of Geordi, Worf were stereotypes; especially during the 80s..which is highly different now. However, some of the posters--white--didn't find anything wrong with it.

'How dare they look for racism! People will look for racism anywhere! Star Trek is above racism!'

With the exception of:

'Code of Honor' which (everytime this topic comes up, which is several times a month) majority of white Trek fans have a problem with the episode.

I have still, to this day, have not heard a black, Asian, or non-white Latino (who is a vocal Trek fan) complain about it.

So yes, I would agree:

Some people WOULD look for racism anywhere...especially if they see something they are not used to.

Hate to break it to you, but there are people of color who do hate 'Code Of Honor', you just don't know then very well.

You're a couple of posts too late, as that has already been addressed....

I completely see what you're saying but IMO(and that of many of my race) the fact that the woman in "Code Of Honor" were made to fight for the affections of the "King" as vulgar & animalistic. Which is another racist stereotype put upon blacks as far back as slavery. It paints black people as less than human but rather like animals and portrays black women as less than diginifed and objects for their man's amusement. Not as people to be honored and respected or as equals. It's the very reason why the old "Tazan" films are seen as racist as well. The blacks in "Code.." are shown to be nothing more than monkey spear chuckers.

While Kim & Keiko were paired with white partners, they still did so with dignity. Showing that it was also a cultural pairing, the example was O'Brian embraced Keiko's Asian culture(They had a Japanese style wedding, as one example) as much as he did his own. He didn't take her and try to break her to his will or impose his culture on her or treat her as less than human. They treated each other as equals. Most times Keiko was the dominate one in the relationship, not the stereotype of the submissive Asian female. I feel they broke stereotype with her, while in "Code.." they embrassed it. It baffles me that any American that took history or is aware the events of slavery through the Civil Rights movement could be that unaware that such an ep. wouldn't be seen as racist.

Actually Keiko did come off as the stereotypical Asian female in TNG; it wasn't until DS9 that she seemed to have been the dominant one in the relationship. Even in the 80s, in various movies and television shows, it was another stereotype to have Asian women paired with/saved by white men.

You can even stretch it to say that Keiko initially was perceived to be the perfect 'China Doll.' (The reason she dressed in traditional garb); and I question as to how Keiko and Alyssa are dignified just because they are being paired with white males...

Would they less dignified if they were paired with non-white males?

Many Asian Americans still wonder when they are going to have an Asian couple onscreen. 'Lost' had people concerned because Daniel Dae Kim was going to be killed off, and Yun-jin Kim (Sun)paired off with Michael; and we're talking about years after TNG.

And again, I appreciate your comments, but I still disagree.

I don't recall anyone being a slave in 'Code of Honor;' sure Lutan was chauvinistic, which is why he got what was coming to him. (Not due to anyone being a slave).

If we look elsewhere, the Orion slave girls are not necessarily treated as 'equals.' (Yet, in some cases they are perceived as devious and animalistic; of course, they're green).

As aforementioned, 'The Paradise Syndrome' had the stereotype of the white man (Kirk) falling for/saving by the beautiful Native American girl (Marimanee) and being threatened by the harsh Native American man (Salish). Years before this episode, 'The Searchers' made a commentary on Native American men and white women...i.e. saving the purity of white females from Native American men....but, we can look at 'The Paradise Syndrome' as having no problem if it is a white male and Native American female.

I haven't seen those eps. in a while, so I'll have to review them again myself.
However, if you are Asian yourself and are offended by these issues within the show & without, then I can empathize.

While you many not agree(which I think is a shame because I wasn't posting to seek approval but rather to empathize on why it's offensive to that race.), you did say you've never heard any complaint about the ep. from anyone African-American. Regardless of what you may think or believe, I am giving you many of the exact reasons why many of my race(myself included) view this ep. as racist. If Asian & Native-American posters(which I am a quarter of) wish to discuss the aspects of those eps., then they are more than welcome to do so. My point was not to compare and/or contrast issues of stereotypes of other races against mine. As I said, it was to give you a referance of why it's offensive to black viewers and that alone.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Hate to break it to you, but there are people of color who do hate 'Code Of Honor', you just don't know then very well.

You're a couple of posts too late, as that has already been addressed....

I completely see what you're saying but IMO(and that of many of my race) the fact that the woman in "Code Of Honor" were made to fight for the affections of the "King" as vulgar & animalistic. Which is another racist stereotype put upon blacks as far back as slavery. It paints black people as less than human but rather like animals and portrays black women as less than diginifed and objects for their man's amusement. Not as people to be honored and respected or as equals. It's the very reason why the old "Tazan" films are seen as racist as well. The blacks in "Code.." are shown to be nothing more than monkey spear chuckers.

While Kim & Keiko were paired with white partners, they still did so with dignity. Showing that it was also a cultural pairing, the example was O'Brian embraced Keiko's Asian culture(They had a Japanese style wedding, as one example) as much as he did his own. He didn't take her and try to break her to his will or impose his culture on her or treat her as less than human. They treated each other as equals. Most times Keiko was the dominate one in the relationship, not the stereotype of the submissive Asian female. I feel they broke stereotype with her, while in "Code.." they embrassed it. It baffles me that any American that took history or is aware the events of slavery through the Civil Rights movement could be that unaware that such an ep. wouldn't be seen as racist.

Actually Keiko did come off as the stereotypical Asian female in TNG; it wasn't until DS9 that she seemed to have been the dominant one in the relationship. Even in the 80s, in various movies and television shows, it was another stereotype to have Asian women paired with/saved by white men.

You can even stretch it to say that Keiko initially was perceived to be the perfect 'China Doll.' (The reason she dressed in traditional garb); and I question as to how Keiko and Alyssa are dignified just because they are being paired with white males...

Would they less dignified if they were paired with non-white males?

Many Asian Americans still wonder when they are going to have an Asian couple onscreen. 'Lost' had people concerned because Daniel Dae Kim was going to be killed off, and Yun-jin Kim (Sun)paired off with Michael; and we're talking about years after TNG.

And again, I appreciate your comments, but I still disagree.

I don't recall anyone being a slave in 'Code of Honor;' sure Lutan was chauvinistic, which is why he got what was coming to him. (Not due to anyone being a slave).

If we look elsewhere, the Orion slave girls are not necessarily treated as 'equals.' (Yet, in some cases they are perceived as devious and animalistic; of course, they're green).

As aforementioned, 'The Paradise Syndrome' had the stereotype of the white man (Kirk) falling for/saving by the beautiful Native American girl (Marimanee) and being threatened by the harsh Native American man (Salish). Years before this episode, 'The Searchers' made a commentary on Native American men and white women...i.e. saving the purity of white females from Native American men....but, we can look at 'The Paradise Syndrome' as having no problem if it is a white male and Native American female.

I haven't seen those eps. in a while, so I'll have to review them again myself.

While you many not agree(which I think is a shame), you did say you've never heard any complaint about the ep. from anyone African-American. Regardless of what you may think or believe, I am giving you many of the exact reasons why many of my race(myself included) view this ep. as racist. If Asian & Native-American posters(which I am a quarter of) wish to discuss the aspects of those eps., then they are more than welcome to do so. My point was not to compare and/or contrast issues of stereotypes of other races against mine. As I said, it was to give you a referance of why it's offensive to black viewers and that alone.

Well, you and I are of the same race basically.

And, we have whites from around the world commenting on this topic in this thread, so I don't think it's wrong to have us black individuals comment on those Asian and Native-American issues...which goes along with what we are talking about.

Granted you are trying to show why it is offensive to some, since we both do not know every single individual who sees or doesn't see racism in this particular episode, but at the same time when there is an argument about race one has to look at ALL viewpoints. (That's what critical thinking is about). Moreover, America isn't just black/white issues; there are other racial backgrounds and viewpoints out there.

Just because it's wrong for one race, doesn't mean it's okay for another...i.e. The original Star Trek prides itself on allegedly showing the first interracial kiss, but there is nothing said when Kirk kisses Elaan of Troyius, portrayed by an Asian woman.

That affects people of ALL colors.

Same with 'Code of Honor.' True, it features black actors/actresses, but if we are going to nitpick and point out certain racial aspects (that may or may not be there), that should apply to ALL races. We should be able to look at the entire Trek franchise (and media in general) in regards to our viewpoints.

 

[exodus]

You're a couple of posts too late, as that has already been addressed....






Actually Keiko did come off as the stereotypical Asian female in TNG; it wasn't until DS9 that she seemed to have been the dominant one in the relationship. Even in the 80s, in various movies and television shows, it was another stereotype to have Asian women paired with/saved by white men.

You can even stretch it to say that Keiko initially was perceived to be the perfect 'China Doll.' (The reason she dressed in traditional garb); and I question as to how Keiko and Alyssa are dignified just because they are being paired with white males...

Would they less dignified if they were paired with non-white males?

Many Asian Americans still wonder when they are going to have an Asian couple onscreen. 'Lost' had people concerned because Daniel Dae Kim was going to be killed off, and Yun-jin Kim (Sun)paired off with Michael; and we're talking about years after TNG.

And again, I appreciate your comments, but I still disagree.

I don't recall anyone being a slave in 'Code of Honor;' sure Lutan was chauvinistic, which is why he got what was coming to him. (Not due to anyone being a slave).

If we look elsewhere, the Orion slave girls are not necessarily treated as 'equals.' (Yet, in some cases they are perceived as devious and animalistic; of course, they're green).

As aforementioned, 'The Paradise Syndrome' had the stereotype of the white man (Kirk) falling for/saving by the beautiful Native American girl (Marimanee) and being threatened by the harsh Native American man (Salish). Years before this episode, 'The Searchers' made a commentary on Native American men and white women...i.e. saving the purity of white females from Native American men....but, we can look at 'The Paradise Syndrome' as having no problem if it is a white male and Native American female.

I haven't seen those eps. in a while, so I'll have to review them again myself.

While you many not agree(which I think is a shame), you did say you've never heard any complaint about the ep. from anyone African-American. Regardless of what you may think or believe, I am giving you many of the exact reasons why many of my race(myself included) view this ep. as racist. If Asian & Native-American posters(which I am a quarter of) wish to discuss the aspects of those eps., then they are more than welcome to do so. My point was not to compare and/or contrast issues of stereotypes of other races against mine. As I said, it was to give you a referance of why it's offensive to black viewers and that alone.

Well, you and I are of the same race basically.

And, we have whites from around the world commenting on this topic in this thread, so I don't think it's wrong to have us black individuals comment on those Asian and Native-American issues...which goes along with what we are talking about.

Granted you are trying to show why it is offensive to some, since we both do not know every single individual who sees or doesn't see racism in this particular episode, but at the same time when there is an argument about race one has to look at ALL viewpoints. (That's what critical thinking is about). Moreover, America isn't just black/white issues.

Just because it's wrong for one race, doesn't mean it's okay for another...i.e. The original Star Trek prides itself on allegedly showing the first interracial kiss, but there is nothing said when Kirk kisses Elaan of Troyius, portrayed by an Asian woman.

That affects people of ALL colors.

Same with 'Code of Honor.' True, it features black actors/actresses, but if we are going to nitpick and point out certain racial aspects (that may or may not be there), that should apply to ALL races. We should be able to look at the entire Trek franchise (and media in general) in regards to our viewpoints.

I agree but as I said, that wasn't my point of posting.
I was just addressing the question you asked originally.
Once again, I appreciate you taking the time to listen.

 

[Mary Ann]

Wow, this thread has been busy since yesterday! It's been a very interesting read.

Believe it or not, I can understand where the OP's friend is coming from. As I mentioned in another post, in the 80s/90s we had black characters that had to have 'something' going on with them.

For example:

*You had the MANTIS character disabled in 'MANTIS.'

*You had the Norton Drake character disabled in 'War of the Worlds.'

*You had Geordi LaForge disabled in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation.'

*Michael Dorn had a big football on his head in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation.'

So, yeah, it was a little cliched there...

IMO the OP's friend is unfortunately a little misguided.
LaForge is not racist but rather a possitive role model for not just minority but for everyone because Geordi is a minority within a minority that excells to spite his disabilities. Regardless of him being blind, LaForge is Chief Engineer. So not only is he smart but he's in the top position in his field on the ship he serves.

Joel, I understand what you're saying, and agree that there may have been some racism, either blatant or latent, regarding some of the casting you mentioned. However I must give exodus a big for stating how Geordi's disability is a positive thing. This is what I was talking about earlier regarding disablism; viewing a disability as a negative point is simply another form of discrimination, especially with such an intelligent and high-achieving character like Geordi.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Wow, this thread has been busy since yesterday! It's been a very interesting read.

Believe it or not, I can understand where the OP's friend is coming from. As I mentioned in another post, in the 80s/90s we had black characters that had to have 'something' going on with them.

For example:

*You had the MANTIS character disabled in 'MANTIS.'

*You had the Norton Drake character disabled in 'War of the Worlds.'

*You had Geordi LaForge disabled in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation.'

*Michael Dorn had a big football on his head in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation.'

So, yeah, it was a little cliched there...

IMO the OP's friend is unfortunately a little misguided.
LaForge is not racist but rather a possitive role model for not just minority but for everyone because Geordi is a minority within a minority that excells to spite his disabilities. Regardless of him being blind, LaForge is Chief Engineer. So not only is he smart but he's in the top position in his field on the ship he serves.

Joel, I understand what you're saying, and agree that there may have been some racism, either blatant or latent, regarding some of the casting you mentioned. However I must give exodus a big for stating how Geordi's disability is a positive thing. This is what I was talking about earlier regarding disablism; viewing a disability as a negative point is simply another form of discrimination, especially with such an intelligent and high-achieving character like Geordi.

Alright...

I haven't seen those eps. in a while, so I'll have to review them again myself.

While you many not agree(which I think is a shame), you did say you've never heard any complaint about the ep. from anyone African-American. Regardless of what you may think or believe, I am giving you many of the exact reasons why many of my race(myself included) view this ep. as racist. If Asian & Native-American posters(which I am a quarter of) wish to discuss the aspects of those eps., then they are more than welcome to do so. My point was not to compare and/or contrast issues of stereotypes of other races against mine. As I said, it was to give you a referance of why it's offensive to black viewers and that alone.

Well, you and I are of the same race basically.

And, we have whites from around the world commenting on this topic in this thread, so I don't think it's wrong to have us black individuals comment on those Asian and Native-American issues...which goes along with what we are talking about.

Granted you are trying to show why it is offensive to some, since we both do not know every single individual who sees or doesn't see racism in this particular episode, but at the same time when there is an argument about race one has to look at ALL viewpoints. (That's what critical thinking is about). Moreover, America isn't just black/white issues.

Just because it's wrong for one race, doesn't mean it's okay for another...i.e. The original Star Trek prides itself on allegedly showing the first interracial kiss, but there is nothing said when Kirk kisses Elaan of Troyius, portrayed by an Asian woman.

That affects people of ALL colors.

Same with 'Code of Honor.' True, it features black actors/actresses, but if we are going to nitpick and point out certain racial aspects (that may or may not be there), that should apply to ALL races. We should be able to look at the entire Trek franchise (and media in general) in regards to our viewpoints.

I agree but as I said, that wasn't my point of posting.
I was just addressing the question you asked originally.
Once again, I appreciate you taking the time to listen.

Fair enough..

 

[DevilEyes]

If I can give a suggestion, could you guys just quote the part of the post you're directly referring to, instead of entire posts every time? Otherwise this thread is going to quickly reach 15 pages with just a few new lines to read!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Actually Keiko did come off as the stereotypical Asian female in TNG; it wasn't until DS9 that she seemed to have been the dominant one in the relationship. Even in the 80s, in various movies and television shows, it was another stereotype to have Asian women paired with/saved by white men.

You can even stretch it to say that Keiko initially was perceived to be the perfect 'China Doll.' (The reason she dressed in traditional garb); and I question as to how Keiko and Alyssa are dignified just because they are being paired with white males...

Meh...I always thought Keiko was dominant right back to the beginning of the relationship. Even in, say, "The Wounded," I think she's very much "in charge" when it comes to the directions that conversations will take. I think she tested him to the point of breaking up with him back in "Data's Day" (though I should warn you my memory of some TNG episodes is very sketchy). She seemed very much in control right from the start.

O'Brien's personality is just a lot more laid-back than hers, I think, and always had been.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

If

I'm going to refer to this 'if'....

I think it's a pretty interesting 'if'...

Did this 'if' have anything to do with racism in TNG? ('If' that was so, that 'if' is a bad 'if')...



I'm joking of course...

If I can give a suggestion, could you guys just quote the part of the post you're directly referring to, instead of entire posts every time? Otherwise this thread is going to quickly reach 15 pages with just a few new lines to read!

Yes, I do agree...

That's a good suggestion, DevilEyes...

Meh...I always thought Keiko was dominant right back to the beginning of the relationship. Even in, say, "The Wounded," I think she's very much "in charge" when it comes to the directions that conversations will take. I think she tested him to the point of breaking up with him back in "Data's Day" (though I should warn you my memory of some TNG episodes is very sketchy). She seemed very much in control right from the start.

O'Brien's personality is just a lot more laid-back than hers, I think, and always had been.

Hmmm....

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Oh...another point to add to that...I always thought the traditional Japanese wedding wasn't some kind of meek, submissive thing--I thought it was because it was her way or the highway for Miles.

BTW...semi-random point here: since others are talking about how plots dealing with ethnic groups they belong to feel to them...this might be the appropriate place to bring this up. One reason I care so much about the Cardassian plots is because they deal with themes that I find resonate with me--themes of guilt and responsibility, and what it's like to be touched by those things, even when you were not a participant in them. I think it was a very bold step for Trek to diversify the Cardassians in personality because really, how often do people look at the "bad guys" to see if they are really all the same or if instead they should be treated as individuals according to their individual deeds and attitudes?

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Actually Keiko did come off as the stereotypical Asian female in TNG; it wasn't until DS9 that she seemed to have been the dominant one in the relationship. Even in the 80s, in various movies and television shows, it was another stereotype to have Asian women paired with/saved by white men.

You can even stretch it to say that Keiko initially was perceived to be the perfect 'China Doll.' (The reason she dressed in traditional garb); and I question as to how Keiko and Alyssa are dignified just because they are being paired with white males...

Meh...I always thought Keiko was dominant right back to the beginning of the relationship. Even in, say, "The Wounded," I think she's very much "in charge" when it comes to the directions that conversations will take. I think she tested him to the point of breaking up with him back in "Data's Day" (though I should warn you my memory of some TNG episodes is very sketchy). She seemed very much in control right from the start.

O'Brien's personality is just a lot more laid-back than hers, I think, and always had been.

Oh...another point to add to that...I always thought the traditional Japanese wedding wasn't some kind of meek, submissive thing--I thought it was because it was her way or the highway for Miles.

BTW...semi-random point here: since others are talking about how plots dealing with ethnic groups they belong to feel to them...this might be the appropriate place to bring this up. One reason I care so much about the Cardassian plots is because they deal with themes that I find resonate with me--themes of guilt and responsibility, and what it's like to be touched by those things, even when you were not a participant in them. I think it was a very bold step for Trek to diversify the Cardassians in personality because really, how often do people look at the "bad guys" to see if they are really all the same or if instead they should be treated as individuals according to their individual deeds and attitudes?

So, Keiko and Miles are a little bit like Ralph and Alice Kramden, then, as I said before?

 

[Nightdiamond]

Nerys Ghemor wrote:

BTW...semi-random point here: since others are talking about how plots dealing with ethnic groups they belong to feel to them...this might be the appropriate place to bring this up. One reason I care so much about the Cardassian plots is because they deal with themes that I find resonate with me--themes of guilt and responsibility, and what it's like to be touched by those things, even when you were not a participant in them.

I think it was a very bold step for Trek to diversify the Cardassians in personality because really, how often do people look at the "bad guys" to see if they are really all the same or if instead they should be treated as individuals according to their individual deeds and attitudes?

Yep, I think that's why Duet is so very very effective. Or the surprise you feel when you see a Cardassian "doing the right thing" (or not acting the way you'd think they'd act).


It would be so easy to make out Cardassians as evil, slimy etc, people, always plotting something.

TNG almost did that, but they also showed Cardassians who were 3 dimensional from time to time.

The Romulans? Not so much. There's this slight two dimensional aspect to them because of that, at least IMO.

Kieko just seemed strong willed, period.

However, even Kassidy pulled some weight on the wedding issue, with Sisko. Dax gave Worf headaches.

Series rule number 5 or 6; "Whenever there is a wedding, there always have to be at least some friction between the couple"

 

[Anwar]

Well, TNG portrayed the Cardassians as more 3-D than the usual alien of the week all the way back in their original appearance in "The Wounded".

The Romulans got some more depth to their characterization from time to time, though keep in mind that most of the ones we saw were in the military and thus weren't going to be very friendly to the Feds. And they could back up their claims, unlike the Cardies most of the time so they were arrogant as well.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

"The Wounded" was very special, as it's the first time ever we see Cardassians, and we hear from the Ent crew they are evil, blah, blah, can't trust them, blah, blah, we were at war, blah blah blah, O'Brien became a killer because of them, blah, and then we get a reasonable man, who punishes his own man for spying on their hosts, and another, a friendly one, who had to hear O'Brien's speech just because he wanted to be nice and invited him for a drink.

I think Gul Madred in "Chain of Command" established Cardassians as brutal, cruel, breaking people torturers, especially since he spoke of Cardassian's Hebitian heritage with such contempt.

 

[DevilEyes]

"The Wounded" was very special, as it's the first time ever we see Cardassians, and we hear from the Ent crew they are evil, blah, blah, can't trust them, blah, blah, we were at war, blah blah blah, O'Brien became a killer because of them, blah, and then we get a reasonable man, who punishes his own man for spying on their hosts, and another, a friendly one, who had to hear O'Brien's speech just because he wanted to be nice and invited him for a drink.

I think Gul Madred in "Chain of Command" established Cardassians as brutal, cruel, breaking people torturers, especially since he spoke of Cardassian's Hebitian heritage with such contempt.

Well, Madred is such a character, but it doesn't have to imply that all Cardassians are like that, does it - only that Cardassian military employs such methods. And he is not one-dimensional, since you get to learn about his background and realize what made him so twisted and cruel (by the end of the episode it's clear that his torture of Picard has become more about his personal need to break Picard psychologically, than about his duty; he continues with it even after he presumably learned that Picard is to be released, which is why Lemec was irritated with Madred). This episode even managed to explore the issue "how can one be a war criminal/torturer/murderer etc. and a loving parent at the time" successfully, something that DS9 writers tried but apparently struggled with (see the issues raised in this thread.) "Chain of Command" also gave us a lot of background info on Cardassia's past that were sadly mostly ignored in canon - the Hebitians, Cardassians having been a peaceful and spiritual people before the military took over... (I wonder when that happened - this episode makes it seem as if it had been relatively recently). "Chain of Command" is a TNG episode that was proto-DS9, and in some ways more DS9 than DS9.

I think TNG did have some sympathetic and noble Romulans - Alidar Jarok and Commander Toreth from "Face of the Enemy". Plus we know that they have a dissident movement. DS9 Romulans actually fit better into the stereotype (though to be fair, only a couple of episodes really focused on them).

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that Madred was representing all Cardassians. I rather meant that it actually was the first time we could see what Cardassians could be like - the stereotype, in which Ent crew seemed to believe. A proof of what Ent crew spoke of.

the Hebitians, Cardassians having been a peaceful and spiritual people before the military took over... (I wonder when that happened - this episode makes it seem as if it had been relatively recently).

In "Defiant" Dukat told Sisko that their system (Central Command + Obsidian Order) worked for 500 years.

Toreth was a very noble Romulan, but still very Romulan (which I actually like, as making her pro-Fed would destroy the character).

 

[Anwar]

Dukat said that the Cardassian Union had existed for 500 years, not that the military had been in control that long. He was probably just referring to the Cardassian people as a whole.

The way Madred and Picard speak, the way the current Military government came to power about 40 years ago (I'm guessing Madred was about 50 years old, the same age as David Warner at the time).