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Wait... was TNG racist?

Cardassians are diverse, like most other species. But in TNG/DS9 they were portrayed as being cruel and cold, which by and large they were. Cardassian society was based on near totalitarianism. There were persons such as Garak (who in my mind was not evil, but certainly could do bad things if he wished to or served his purpose), Tekeny Ghemor or Marritza, to balance Gul Dar'heel or Dukat, in fairness.

The fact that we see persons such as Duras and his sisters and son, and Gowron (at least in latter DS9), to balance off honourable Klingons like Worf, Kurn, Martok and Kor doesn't mean that Klingons in general aren't a culture that believes in honour.
 
Only honour always means "let's bang our skulls together and respond to every stupid challenge even if it should kill us". They're all "warriors" and "irritable" and have "a temper". Every single one of 'em. Even the half ones, like Banana Torres.

Now if that isn't a stereotype, I don't know what is.
 
So, Keiko and Miles are a little bit like Ralph and Alice Kramden, then, as I said before?;)

Keiko
(waving fists)
One of these days, Miles! One of these days...!​

Only honour always means "let's bang our skulls together and respond to every stupid challenge even if it should kill us". They're all "warriors" and "irritable" and have "a temper". Every single one of 'em. Even the half ones, like Banana Torres.

Now if that isn't a stereotype, I don't know what is.

That is indeed a stereotype; one of the reasons I'm not too fond of the Klingons...

Banana Torres could be okay....at times.
 
We saw a Klingon Chef and a Klingon Lawyer in DS9, and we saw another Klingon Lawyer and a scientist in ENT. They didn't fit the stereotypes at all, hell when asked the Klingon lawyer stated that the courtroom was his battlefield.

I think the real defining trait of a Klingon is that they all have extreme enthusiasm and drive for whatever occupation they choose. They don't believe in laziness or apathy.
 
We saw a Klingon Chef and a Klingon Lawyer in DS9, and we saw another Klingon Lawyer and a scientist in ENT. They didn't fit the stereotypes at all, hell when asked the Klingon lawyer stated that the courtroom was his battlefield.

I think the real defining trait of a Klingon is that they all have extreme enthusiasm and drive for whatever occupation they choose. They don't believe in laziness or apathy.

;)
 
Dukat said that the Cardassian Union had existed for 500 years, not that the military had been in control that long. He was probably just referring to the Cardassian people as a whole.

The way Madred and Picard speak, the way the current Military government came to power about 40 years ago (I'm guessing Madred was about 50 years old, the same age as David Warner at the time).
Unless Cardassians age more slowly than Humans, as some Trek lit writers have assumed...

Actually, 40 years seems too recent, since that's how long the Occupation of Bajor is supposed to have lasted. Maybe it's something between 50 and 70 years (or even 100, depending on how long we assume the lifespan of a Cardassian to be).

Cardassians are diverse, like most other species. But in TNG/DS9 they were portrayed as being cruel and cold, which by and large they were. Cardassian society was based on near totalitarianism. There were persons such as Garak (who in my mind was not evil, but certainly could do bad things if he wished to or served his purpose), Tekeny Ghemor or Marritza, to balance Gul Dar'heel or Dukat, in fairness.
It's funny that so many people will name a former prominent member of the Cardassian version of Stasi/KGB (or if you're one of those fans enamoured of the Nazi Germany comparisons, Gestapo), former torturer, assassin and who knows what else, not to mention a pathological liar, as a good guy... :shifty: because he's so cool, has great lines, is relatively reasonable and loves Cardassia... oh, and because he's on our heroes' side... (which he may not have been if he hadn't ended up in exile for whatever reason...)

You know, I've always loved Garak, but I find myself liking him a little less every time someone calls him a good guy.

The fact that we see persons such as Duras and his sisters and son, and Gowron (at least in latter DS9), to balance off honourable Klingons like Worf, Kurn, Martok and Kor doesn't mean that Klingons in general aren't a culture that believes in honour.
"Honor" is just a catchphrase that the Klingons use to justify whatever they're doing, even if it's most dishonorable, just like Humans will speak of tolerance and acceptance of other cultures even while they're being at their most prejudiced and arrogant. See "Sins of the Father" and "The House of Quark" for some examples of Klingon "honor" being nothing but a cover for political expediency or greed.
 
"Honor" is just a catchphrase that the Klingons use to justify whatever they're doing, even if it's most dishonorable, just like Humans will speak of tolerance and acceptance of other cultures even while they're being at their most prejudiced and arrogant.

A very awesome quote...(and fits well with the topics and discussions in this thread)...

I want to ask your permission to use that quote...wherever...;)

May I....?
 
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"Honor" is just a catchphrase that the Klingons use to justify whatever they're doing, even if it's most dishonorable, just like Humans will speak of tolerance and acceptance of other cultures even while they're being at their most prejudiced and arrogant.

A very awesome quote...(and fits well with the topics and discussions in this thread)...

Which justified Ezri's small speech to Worf.
 
Dukat said that the Cardassian Union had existed for 500 years, not that the military had been in control that long. He was probably just referring to the Cardassian people as a whole.

Sisko and Dukat talk about the Obsidian Order (Korinas is making things difficult).
Sisko: The Order has to answer to someone.
Dukat: In theory they answer to the political authority of the Detapa Counsil, just like the military does. In practice, w both run our own affairs.
Sisko: Not a very efficient system.
Dukat: It's worked for over five centuries.

Well, maybe I'm stupid an my English is really bad, but I still understand it as the system (Cardassian Guard and Obsidian Order) exists for 500 years, not just Cardassian Union (which probably is the same, if speaking of modern Union), so the Hebitian times were deep in past and the military plays important role for quite some time.

Maybe Madred is from a military fraction, which took power of Central Command recently (fraction, as a kind of political party), but the existance of three powers (Detapa, Guard, Obsidian Order) isn't new and definitelly isn't something that was established during Madred's life.


Speaking of Klingons (and half-Klingons, as Belanna was mentioned) - K'Eylehr wasn't a stereotypical one, but she sure was glorious and honourable :)
 
She was also raised by humans, I believe. She was the Federation Emissary to the Klingons.
 
Actually Keiko did come off as the stereotypical Asian female in TNG; it wasn't until DS9 that she seemed to have been the dominant one in the relationship. Even in the 80s, in various movies and television shows, it was another stereotype to have Asian women paired with/saved by white men.

You can even stretch it to say that Keiko initially was perceived to be the perfect 'China Doll.' (The reason she dressed in traditional garb); and I question as to how Keiko and Alyssa are dignified just because they are being paired with white males...

Meh...I always thought Keiko was dominant right back to the beginning of the relationship. Even in, say, "The Wounded," I think she's very much "in charge" when it comes to the directions that conversations will take. I think she tested him to the point of breaking up with him back in "Data's Day" (though I should warn you my memory of some TNG episodes is very sketchy). She seemed very much in control right from the start.

O'Brien's personality is just a lot more laid-back than hers, I think, and always had been.
:bolian:
 
Dukat said that the Cardassian Union had existed for 500 years, not that the military had been in control that long. He was probably just referring to the Cardassian people as a whole.

Sisko and Dukat talk about the Obsidian Order (Korinas is making things difficult).
Sisko: The Order has to answer to someone.
Dukat: In theory they answer to the political authority of the Detapa Counsil, just like the military does. In practice, w both run our own affairs.
Sisko: Not a very efficient system.
Dukat: It's worked for over five centuries.

Well, maybe I'm stupid an my English is really bad, but I still understand it as the system (Cardassian Guard and Obsidian Order) exists for 500 years, not just Cardassian Union (which probably is the same, if speaking of modern Union), so the Hebitian times were deep in past and the military plays important role for quite some time.

Maybe Madred is from a military fraction, which took power of Central Command recently (fraction, as a kind of political party), but the existance of three powers (Detapa, Guard, Obsidian Order) isn't new and definitelly isn't something that was established during Madred's life.
The Hebitians definitely belong to Cardassia's distant past , probably thousands of years earlier, but that has nothing to do with the issue of Cardassia's current political system.


Picard: I know that the burial vaults of the First Hebitian civilization
are said to be magnificent.
Madred: Apparently, when they were unearthed 200 years ago, they were. The vaults contained unimaginably beautiful artefacts made of jevonite, a rare, breathtaking stone. But most of those objects are gone.
Picard: What happened to them?
Madred: What happens to impoverished societies. The tombs were plundered, priceless treasures stolen. A few were preserved in museums, but even those were eventually sold to pay for our war efforts.
Picard: That war cost you hundreds of thousands of lives. It depleted your food supplies, left your population weakened and miserable,and yet you risk another war.

I presume he's talking about the earlier Cardassian-Federation war. But when were the artefacts sold to pay for war efforts? 40 years ago? 50 years ago? 100 years ago? "Eventually" can mean anything.

Madred: Most people become ill at the sight of live taspar. I remember the first time I ate a live taspar. I was six years old and living on the streets of Lakat. There was a band of children, four, five, six years old, some even smaller, desperately trying to survive. We were thin, scrawny little animals, constantly hungry, always cold. We slept in doorways, like packs of wild gettles, for warmth. Once, I found a nest. Taspars had built a nest in the eave of a burnt-out building
and I found three eggs in it. It was like finding treasure. I cracked one open on the spot and ate it, very much as you just did. I planned to save the other two. That would keep me alive for another week.But, of course, an older boy saw them and wanted them.
And he got them.

Madred: What do you know of Cardassian history?
Picard: I know that once, you were a peaceful people with a rich spiritual life.
Madred: What did peace and spirituality get us? Millions starved. Bodies went unburied. Disease was rampant. Suffering was unimaginable.
Picard: Since the military took over, hundreds of thousands more have died.
Madred: But we are feeding the people. We acquired territory during the wars. We developed new resources. We initiated a rebuilding programme. We have mandated agricultural programmes. That is what the military has done for Cardassia. And, because of that, my daughter will never worry about going hungry.
Picard: Her belly may be full, but her spirit will be empty.


"The military" cannot refer to any kind of fraction in the Central Command; the military means what the word means, and the Central Command is the head of the military.

This dialogue in "Chain of Command" strongly suggests that Cardassia is a military dictatorship and that it's a recent development that happened during Madred's lifetime.

I think that the concept of the political system in the Cardassian Union 'evolved' from TNG to DS9 S3... In any case, there was nothing about the Detapa Council or the Obsidian Order in TNG. I don't think that there was supposed to be any kind of civilian government in the Cardassian Union as envisioned in "Chain of Command". And in DS9, not only is there a civilian government that is officially equal to the military (even if it's in fact much weaker), but we learn that the Obsidian Order is at least as much if not even more powerful than the Central Command, which puts into question the statement that the military rules Cardassia.

Speaking of Klingons (and half-Klingons, as Belanna was mentioned) - K'Eylehr wasn't a stereotypical one, but she sure was glorious and honourable :)
Yes, she was awesome... but she had a rather skeptical attitude towards Klingon tradition, beliefs and culture, probably because she wasn't idealizing it like Worf, but saw the Klingons more realistically and was aware of how short many of them fall of their proclaimed ideals of 'honor'. She resented the idea of being a slave to Klingon traditions, which is why she and Worf clashed so much.


... and we've strayed far from the subject of the thread. ;)
 
So, Keiko and Miles are a little bit like Ralph and Alice Kramden, then, as I said before?;)

Keiko
(waving fists)
One of these days, Miles! One of these days...!.​


I feel like I should know this reference, but I'm afraid I don't.

Dukat said that the Cardassian Union had existed for 500 years, not that the military had been in control that long. He was probably just referring to the Cardassian people as a whole.

Sisko and Dukat talk about the Obsidian Order (Korinas is making things difficult).
Sisko: The Order has to answer to someone.
Dukat: In theory they answer to the political authority of the Detapa Counsil, just like the military does. In practice, w both run our own affairs.
Sisko: Not a very efficient system.
Dukat: It's worked for over five centuries.

Well, maybe I'm stupid an my English is really bad, but I still understand it as the system (Cardassian Guard and Obsidian Order) exists for 500 years, not just Cardassian Union (which probably is the same, if speaking of modern Union), so the Hebitian times were deep in past and the military plays important role for quite some time.

Maybe Madred is from a military fraction, which took power of Central Command recently (fraction, as a kind of political party), but the existance of three powers (Detapa, Guard, Obsidian Order) isn't new and definitelly isn't something that was established during Madred's life.

This is actually very easy to reconcile...both of you are definitely remembering right--and I think the way to explain how both quotes can be true is extremely simple.

I believe that when Tret Akleen founded the Cardassian Union, he did so with 3 powers: the Detapa Council, which I think he may have led, Central Command, and the Obsidian Order. For the first few leaders of the Union--Akleen and his first few successors, I think the Detapa Council did have a fair amount of power. Some of these periods in early Union history may even have been called "Republics." This would be as much of a misnomer as "People's Democratic Republic," of course. But as the Union moved away from those times, Central Command and the Obsidian Order gained power over time, and the Detapa Council became a mere figurehead, just rubber-stamping whatever the two great powers did, for fear of execution.

By the time Gul Madred remembers, they finally took the step of openly eliminating the Detapa Council. While the military had been running things before that point, what was once a de facto truth (and one that dared not be stated for fear of execution) suddenly became open and acknowledged truth.

This act was enough to tick off certain people, though--people like Tekeny Ghemor and Natima Lang--and stir them into more open dissidence, leading to the restoration of the Detapa Council (though NOT a democracy as we know it).

If this is correct...then BOTH scripts, both accounts, are perfectly reconcilable.

As to the Hebitians, there are multiple interpretations of them that are legitimate. I personally write with the assumption that the species name changed when Akleen's rebellion happened 500 years prior. This doesn't necessarily have to be the case, though. But when it comes to the form of government, I think what I've presented is the only possible reconciliation, and the only idea that makes sense.

Nerys Ghemor said:
BTW...semi-random point here: since others are talking about how plots dealing with ethnic groups they belong to feel to them...this might be the appropriate place to bring this up. One reason I care so much about the Cardassian plots is because they deal with themes that I find resonate with me--themes of guilt and responsibility, and what it's like to be touched by those things, even when you were not a participant in them.

I think it was a very bold step for Trek to diversify the Cardassians in personality because really, how often do people look at the "bad guys" to see if they are really all the same or if instead they should be treated as individuals according to their individual deeds and attitudes?
Yep, I think that's why Duet is so very very effective. Or the surprise you feel when you see a Cardassian "doing the right thing" (or not acting the way you'd think they'd act).


It would be so easy to make out Cardassians as evil, slimy etc, people, always plotting something.

TNG almost did that, but they also showed Cardassians who were 3 dimensional from time to time.

I think this is a very important thing, personally. Once a people or group has committed atrocities, I think this is a question we really have to ask...when do their children and those who were not affiliated with those acts stop paying for the sins of others? And do they not deserve to be judged as individuals just like anyone else, even though they were the former group in power?

Going back to race, the question becomes, is EVERYONE worthy of being judged by the content of their character, instead of being suspected because of the color of their skin? That's an uncomfortable question, but one that I think needs to be addressed in parallel with all of the other questions that we are rightly addressing already, in order for us to really have peace.
 

I feel like I should know this reference, but I'm afraid I don't.

'The Honeymooners'....

However, since Miles isn't the one 'wearing the pants' (according to your and Dusy Ayers' example)...it's Keiko.

Going back to race, the question becomes, is EVERYONE worthy of being judged by the content of their character, instead of being suspected because of the color of their skin? That's an uncomfortable question, but one that I think needs to be addressed in parallel with all of the other questions that we are rightly addressing already, in order for us to really have peace.
That a broad (but very good thought); and here is my broad answer:

I guess if we go back to our 'Code of Honor'/'Paradise Syndrome'/'Insurrection'/Ogawa and Keiko/'Elaan of Troyius' discussion:

I think it's acknowledging that everyone is equal; we don't draw things that aren't there because we see a certain race...but let it go if another racial portrayal is there onscreen.

As aforementioned, we still see things in black and white (literally), ignoring Asians and Latinos....(unless applicable).

Another thing, you'll have many different viewpoints on this since we are in a world that isn't just 'black' and 'white'...nor just 'Christian' or 'Mormon'...or 'Muslim'...or 'Buddhist.'

It's definitely possible for people to get along, but there are some who still want to see color or race before anything else. (That's getting so passe; and people can only really get away with it online).;)

Off-topic sidenote: Nerys, I know I haven't got back to you, but it would be interesting for you to put your Cardassian 'bible' together in some way for public consumption. I think that's some good/hard work there...

Unfortunately, you would then get into the entire legal/CBS/Pocket Books headache that come with it...
 
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I think it's acknowledging that everyone is equal; we don't draw things that aren't there because we see a certain race...but let it go if another racial portrayal is there onscreen.

As aforementioned, we still see things in black and white (literally), ignoring Asians and Latinos....(unless applicable).

Another thing, you'll have many different viewpoints on this since we are in a world that isn't just 'black' and 'white'...nor just 'Christian' or 'Mormon'...or 'Muslim'...or 'Buddhist.'

I definitely agree there are many POVs in this world. I think that there are certain paradigms that there's a lot of pain associated with, though, among various pockets of the population, and that's why they keep coming up. I think that we keep trying to work through the pain--but I don't think that we do it very well, any of us. :(

It's definitely possible for people to get along, but there are some who still want to see color or race before anything else. (That's getting so passe; and people can only really get away with it online).;)
Not where I live...it's very common IRL. I don't want to say online where I live, but I can say that there is still a lot of pain here and a lot of people that are very quick to immediately jump to color and attack people on that assumption (usually a verbal attack, but words do a lot more harm than people realize). It is a deep wound that will take a LONG time to heal, I think, and we're nowhere near that point yet. (You can even look at it in very, very subtle ways where I live...and even in traffic, even the way people behave towards each other in traffic is determined by race...people only seem to care for those like them. It's so subtle, but it's there, and it hurts.) One time I had it happen to me so bad at work that I ended up in the break room in tears afterwards. I had screwed up something that a customer was doing, but got yelled at that I must've screwed up because the color of my skin meant I had to be a "racist." :(

I was actually afraid of losing my job after that...though thankfully my boss talked sense into me. He didn't like that kind of thing or think it's fair, and he knew me enough to judge me on individual merit, and I honestly think if that woman had tried to get me fired, he would've backed me up. But to another boss, the accusation could've been "damnation". :(

Off-topic sidenote: Nerys, I know I haven't got back to you, but it would be interesting for you to put your Cardassian 'bible' together in some way for public consumption. I think that's some good/hard work there...

Unfortunately, you would then get into the entire legal/CBS/Pocket Books headache that come with it...
Well, while I've said some stuff in my fanfic, I prefer it to STAY on a fanfic site because then no one in their right mind would ever get it mixed up for canon or licensed.
 
I definitely agree there are many POVs in this world. I think that there are certain paradigms that there's a lot of pain associated with, though, among various pockets of the population, and that's why they keep coming up. I think that we keep trying to work through the pain--but I don't think that we do it very well, any of us. :(

That reminds me of a story:

I was heading to school about a couple of weeks back, and this guy (white; 30-ish; about 5'-8"; blond beard/haired; didn't seem to be a very sociable person or very educated; possibly no income; looking to religion to help him in life, as I came across this fella previously) came up to me--on this street that was abandoned for the time being--and decided to tell me how he was called the 'n' word. (He literally said the 'n' word...not 'ni***r; as I would definitely have to restrain myself he is said the word fully...:lol:).

He tried to say how people 'back then,' people were called the term; he was referring to the African country 'Niger'...which is obviously pronounced 'Nigh-ger,' not the way we pronounce the epithet; and he would claim that he and I were the same since he was called the 'n' word.

I felt very sorry for the guy rather than upset, although I do have to admit he was a bit unsettling; however, he smiled slightly and acted like he was telling me something profound. (I would think that wherever he went to church, he was told that wasn't something he should do again in the future).

I recall him nearly halfway down the street opposite of where I was going, and he caught up with me.(And I think it was morning, and I'm not a morning person...;))

Not where I live...it's very common IRL. I don't want to say online where I live, but I can say that there is still a lot of pain here and a lot of people that are very quick to immediately jump to color and attack people on that assumption (usually a verbal attack, but words do a lot more harm than people realize). It is a deep wound that will take a LONG time to heal, I think, and we're nowhere near that point yet. (You can even look at it in very, very subtle ways where I live...and even in traffic, even the way people behave towards each other in traffic is determined by race...people only seem to care for those like them. It's so subtle, but it's there, and it hurts.) One time I had it happen to me so bad at work that I ended up in the break room in tears afterwards. I had screwed up something that a customer was doing, but got yelled at that I must've screwed up because the color of my skin meant I had to be a "racist." :(

I was actually afraid of losing my job after that...though thankfully my boss talked sense into me. He didn't like that kind of thing or think it's fair, and he knew me enough to judge me on individual merit, and I honestly think if that woman had tried to get me fired, he would've backed me up. But to another boss, the accusation could've been "damnation". :(
I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, there are some who will jump to conclusions (be it race or not) without looking at the bigger picture.

Without getting into specifics, I lived/grew up with people who jumped to conclusions....where they believed everything negatively that happened to them was because they were black.

And there are other cases I've came across in life; especially as I am a black male interested in Asian culture...and obviously, Asian women.

We're slowly but surely getting there, but we have a ways to go.

I have high hopes, however, that we will actually 'get there.'

Well, while I've said some stuff in my fanfic, I prefer it to STAY on a fanfic site because then no one in their right mind would ever get it mixed up for canon or licensed.

I hear ya...;)
 
I think "lashing out", which is what it was, is soooo stupid. I work in retail.

At least try and think hard before ever making an accusation like that, you know?.



Joel_Kirk wrote:
I think it's acknowledging that everyone is equal; we don't draw things that aren't there because we see a certain race...but let it go if another racial portrayal is there onscreen.

As aforementioned, we still see things in black and white (literally), ignoring Asians and Latinos....(unless applicable).

Another thing, you'll have many different viewpoints on this since we are in a world that isn't just 'black' and 'white'...nor just 'Christian' or 'Mormon'...or 'Muslim'...or 'Buddhist.'

Quite true...

I can give another example of what could or could not be considered racism from TOS; and what Joel Kirk just pointed out;

In Space Seed, the crew discovered a number of genetically engineered people from the 20th century-in suspended animation.

Scotty notes they were a 'mixed assortment'- from Asia, Middle East, Europe and Latin america.

No mention of Africa, no Africans depicted-yet these were supposed to be leaders of countries joining together for some agenda.

It wasn't deliberate intentional malice, of course, but at the same time one would admit the silence speaks volumes-or at least chapters.


Sometimes when I think about the subject, however, I am reminded-after looking at some of the things going on in other places in the world, it could be a lot worse.

I wonder what Quark would say, lol??
 
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