Wait... was TNG racist?

[Ghrakh]

I don't mind seeing black, Asian, or Latino actors/actresses behind make-up, but during the 80s (especially in regards to Geordi and Worf) it seemed like we couldn't have an actor of color without 'something' added....

Well, there was also Guinan, who, apart from being called a different species seemed quite human, albeit one with an advanced intuitive sense and lots of wisdom.

I just think that had there been diversity in casting of Cardassians from the start, we would've had a context established where there wouldn't be any possibility to perceive something unintended or insulting.

In their very first appearance, one of them was played by a quite latin Marco Rodriguez, but being cast with mostly white actors to me might have been more about the facial features...Cardassians just look more menacing with those knife-edge features imo, and if the visuals are the objective, you're simply more likely to find white actors that fit.

What about this guy? I think here's where "diversity" seems forced...

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I don't mind seeing black, Asian, or Latino actors/actresses behind make-up, but during the 80s (especially in regards to Geordi and Worf) it seemed like we couldn't have an actor of color without 'something' added....

Well, there was also Guinan, who, apart from being called a different species seemed quite human, albeit one with an advanced intuitive sense and lots of wisdom.

True...

I just think that had there been diversity in casting of Cardassians from the start, we would've had a context established where there wouldn't be any possibility to perceive something unintended or insulting.

In their very first appearance, one of them was played by a quite latin Marco Rodriguez, but being cast with mostly white actors to me might have been more about the facial features...Cardassians just look more menacing with those knife-edge features imo, and if the visuals are the objective, you're simply more likely to find white actors that fit.

What about this guy? I think here's where "diversity" seems forced...

Aside from the fact that I dislike what TNG onward did with the Romulans...the hair is all wrong.

Granted 'dark-skinned' Romulans may have that type of hair, but this 'dark-skinned' human (Me!) looking at that thought it looked wrong...

Male Romulans, 'white' or 'dark-skinned' always had curly hair anyhow(i.e. Commander Tal, and his officer) IMO....and that would have been more applicable, I think...

 

[scotpens]

. . . Ah, but age and weight is different from 'race.' Since anyone of any race can be fat, skinny, middle-aged...what have you.

True. But in the acting and modeling professions, age, weight, height, body shape, race, ethnicity, and gender are all bona fide qualifications for a job or to be cast in a particular role.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I just think that had there been diversity in casting of Cardassians from the start, we would've had a context established where there wouldn't be any possibility to perceive something unintended or insulting.

In their very first appearance, one of them was played by a quite latin Marco Rodriguez, but being cast with mostly white actors to me might have been more about the facial features...Cardassians just look more menacing with those knife-edge features imo, and if the visuals are the objective, you're simply more likely to find white actors that fit.

Ahh, that must be Glinn Telle you're thinking of. We've had multiple people with at least some Latino descent playing Cardassians...the man who played Corbin Entek may have had some Latino ancestry.

It MIGHT also be that the guy who played Rugal had some Latino ancestry...though I can't prove that one unless I were to have a bio that said so. (It's simply that Vidal is not the most common of first names.)

(If he did, then that would be an example of the kind of APPROPRIATE context I wish we would've had for the actor that played Broca...you would've had Cardassians of multiple types and motivations played by Latino actors.)

What about this guy? I think here's where "diversity" seems forced...

That's VERY inconsistent with Tuvok, who as a Vulcan is supposed to share much of the same genetic heritage as a species, with the Romulans. And Tuvok did not have that kind of hair.

(Though what I DO see that is consistent with Romulans is that this actor has much the same physical build as many Romulans we saw, who tend towards a bit more stockiness than Vulcans--perhaps something they deliberately fostered in themselves to cope with the fact that they were on a cooler world but still had the same desert-adapted metabolisms.)

 

[zar]

The original statement can be easily debunked because I'm quite sure race was never part of the role. The concept for the characters wasn't "Africans" (Geordi isn't even an African name; it's a derivative of George), it was "Klingon" and "blind engineer". The best auditions just happened to be by people who were black (Tuvok was never intended to be black either, by the way).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I don't see any problem with him being Tim Russ being black, though. My criticisms of VOY aside, there's no doubt Tim Russ KNEW how to play a Vulcan, and do it well--and best that the job go to the most qualified individual.

As to the hair that Sirol had, I would say it only seemed odd because Vulcans and Romulans get very little makeup--whereas a Cardassian, or even MORE so a Jem'Hadar, we're not expecting human features. A man who has scales for his upper layer of skin could have evolved in ANY way as far as hair goes, and the "normal rules" just don't apply.

 

[Destructor]

The original statement can be easily debunked because I'm quite sure race was never part of the role. The concept for the characters wasn't "Africans" (Geordi isn't even an African name; it's a derivative of George), it was "Klingon" and "blind engineer". The best auditions just happened to be by people who were black (Tuvok was never intended to be black either, by the way).

Actually, the original conversation arose because of the recently linked casting shortlist, which did in fact call for Geordi to be black- no other ethnicities were mentioned on the callsheet or considered in the shortlist, which prompted my friend (who is a white Australian woman, for those who asked) to make the tweet that sparked my outrage.

I'm afraid I can't bring characters like Sisko and Tuvok into the equation, her premise is that TNG was racist, not shows that came after. I don't agree with the premise and I appreciate everyone's comments.

 

[Mary Ann]

. . . Ah, but age and weight is different from 'race.' Since anyone of any race can be fat, skinny, middle-aged...what have you.

True. But in the acting and modeling professions, age, weight, height, body shape, race, ethnicity, and gender are all bona fide qualifications for a job or to be cast in a particular role.

You beat me to it. These may be questionable practices, and I don't think anyone's fully defending these practices, but from a purely objective point of view it can be argued that casting a black actor for Worf's role was logical for the reasons I stated above.

My other point in my original post hasn't been discussed, so I'd like to bring it up again, if I may. From what I can work out, the friend the OP is talking about appears to take offense to a black person being presented as blind. So is this person taking offense to the disability? In my opinion taking offense at a person of a particular ethnic or geographic background being portrayed as disabled shifts the focus from racism to disablism. Thoughts?

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Is there such a thing as an 'African Blind Man' cliche? And if so, do you think Geordi was an example of that?

Well, as someone who has done a lot of growing up in dear ole Republiek van Suid-Afrika during the eighties, I am familiar with a number of awful cliches concerning black people (none of which I have ever shared btw). This one, however, I have never heard before.

What does the person mean, 'blind'? How is that a race thing? And why would it be a slur? I don't get it, and I don't agree with it: Geordi's handicap was turned to a big advantage on a number of occasions.

 

[DevilEyes]

I just think that had there been diversity in casting of Cardassians from the start, we would've had a context established where there wouldn't be any possibility to perceive something unintended or insulting.

In their very first appearance, one of them was played by a quite latin Marco Rodriguez, but being cast with mostly white actors to me might have been more about the facial features...Cardassians just look more menacing with those knife-edge features imo, and if the visuals are the objective, you're simply more likely to find white actors that fit.

That reminds me, Lance Reddick would make a very intimidating Cardassian... (though taller than an average Cardie).

Not all the actors cast as Cardassians had knife-edge features though... neither were all of their characters meant to be menacing... Lawrence Pressman (Ghemor), for instance, has very 'soft' features.

For the record, I never realized that the actor who played Broca was black, before I checked him on Memory Alpha (I hadn't realized he was the same guy who played the taxi driver in Total Recall).

On the other hand, the casting of John Schuck as Legate Parn was clearly an attempt to add more diversity to the Cardassians:

In the DS9 Companion, Ira Steven Behr notes that John Schuck's casting as Parn was designed to show that not all Cardassians had athletic figures.

 

[exodus]

Aside from the very unfortunate "Code of Honor" episode, I can't see how you can call TNG racist - or any other Trek series for that matter. From TOS on, Trek has been pretty inclusive with the casting of non-white actors in prominent "hero" roles. TOS had a black woman and an Asian man, TNG had several black actors, as did DS9, and VOY had a black actor, a Native American, a Hispanic, and an Asian.

However, in regards to the 'Code of Honor' episode, I have yet to hear those who are non-White complain about the episode.

It can go both ways, however:

I'm sure there are some who could complain about the predominant white society that 'Star Trek: Insurrection' wanted to portray.

And what about TOS 'The Paradise Syndrome'? We have a white male (Kirk) who comes to save the savage Indians, and fall for the beautiful Indian woman (Marimanee) who is also loved by an Indian warrior(Salish)....who feels threatened by the white male.

And the story of the white male being taken in by Native Americans had been done so much before; as we recall, Star Trek (TOS) came out during the time when the Western was the most popular genre.

'Aquiel' is considered a low episode, but it features Geordi LaForge in a romantic setting with an attractive lady. (If that same episode had featured Picard or Riker, would it have gotten the same flak?)

We can even go so far to look at 'Sub Rosa,' which features Beverly Crusher (white, but she's an underused female in the series) in a romantic setting. (It is also considered a low point in TNG, interestingly, by some). Again, if the story featured Picard or Riker in the same predicament...would it have been considered a high point, Hugo-award winning moment in Star Trek history?

I noticed something else interesting, in reading these posts:

I think the OP had a 'friend' (black, IIRC) who thought that the portrayal of Geordi, Worf were stereotypes; especially during the 80s..which is highly different now. However, some of the posters--white--didn't find anything wrong with it.

'How dare they look for racism! People will look for racism anywhere! Star Trek is above racism!'

With the exception of:

'Code of Honor' which (everytime this topic comes up, which is several times a month) majority of white Trek fans have a problem with the episode.

I have still, to this day, have not heard a black, Asian, or non-white Latino (who is a vocal Trek fan) complain about it.

So yes, I would agree:

Some people WOULD look for racism anywhere...especially if they see something they are not used to.

Hello, African-American Trek fan here.
"Code of Honor" is racist, just as "Up The Long Ladder" is offensive to those that are Irish. Michael Dorn & Levar Burton themselves won't even speak about the ep. I'm also aware of Latino & Native American posters here that have spoken up several times about how racially offesive "Code of Honor" is.
I don't think anyone anywhere is used or would be used to seeing black men making their black women fight to the death over the affections of white women. It's barbaric and a very racist view of blacks.
However, on the whole TNG isn't racist.

IMO the OP's friend is unfortunately a little misguided.
LaForge is not racist but rather a possitive role model for not just minority but for everyone because Geordi is a minority within a minority that excells to spite his disabilities. Regardless of him being blind, LaForge is Chief Engineer. So not only is he smart but he's in the top position in his field on the ship he serves.

 

[Anwar]

"Blind Black Man" is not a racist stereotype. Never has been. There are no ethnic stereotypes associated with blindness.

"Code of Honor" is racist, though the script didn't call for the Ligonians to all be African-types. That was the boneheaded move of the director who was promptly fired.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Not all the actors cast as Cardassians had knife-edge features though... neither were all of their characters meant to be menacing... Lawrence Pressman (Ghemor), for instance, has very 'soft' features.

<<<<EXHIBIT "A" for "AWWWWWW!"

Don't you just want to give Tekeny a big old hug?? He seems so approachable from the instant we see the character.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

"Blind Black Man" is not a racist stereotype. Never has been. There are no ethnic stereotypes associated with blindness.

That's what I meant.

"Code of Honor" is racist, though the script didn't call for the Ligonians to all be African-types. That was the boneheaded move of the director who was promptly fired.

That episode is really, really offensive and makes me cringe like no other. I don't know anyone who didn't laugh their arses off at that piece of junk.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

. . . Ah, but age and weight is different from 'race.' Since anyone of any race can be fat, skinny, middle-aged...what have you.

True. But in the acting and modeling professions, age, weight, height, body shape, race, ethnicity, and gender are all bona fide qualifications for a job or to be cast in a particular role.

You beat me to it. These may be questionable practices, and I don't think anyone's fully defending these practices, but from a purely objective point of view it can be argued that casting a black actor for Worf's role was logical for the reasons I stated above.

My other point in my original post hasn't been discussed, so I'd like to bring it up again, if I may. From what I can work out, the friend the OP is talking about appears to take offense to a black person being presented as blind. So is this person taking offense to the disability? In my opinion taking offense at a person of a particular ethnic or geographic background being portrayed as disabled shifts the focus from racism to disablism. Thoughts?

Believe it or not, I can understand where the OP's friend is coming from. As I mentioned in another post, in the 80s/90s we had black characters that had to have 'something' going on with them.

For example:

*You had the MANTIS character disabled in 'MANTIS.'

*You had the Norton Drake character disabled in 'War of the Worlds.'

*You had Geordi LaForge disabled in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation.'

*Michael Dorn had a big football on his head in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation.'

So, yeah, it was a little cliched there...

Now, as for the racial casting of the Klingon's, in regards to Worf, IIRC:

I take it this was before Picard, Riker, and everyone else was cast.

If it was open-casting for everyone (for example: a black/Asian/Latino/Native American actor could have been cast for Riker or Picard, or a black/Asian/Native American/Latino actress for Crusher or Troi...I don't think there would be a major problem).

I was looking at it as if they had specific casting for the other roles(meaning they were specifically looking for white actors); and they just happened to want to specifically look for black actors for the Worf and LaForge roles.

I'm assuming the case was the former example; open casting.

Still, I think the 2009 film did a better job with casting...not only in the aliens, but the human characters. So, there is no question that the casting director did his or her job in finding anyone (no matter their racial background) for the roles--save for the major characters--since the proof is right up there onscreen.

Aside from the very unfortunate "Code of Honor" episode, I can't see how you can call TNG racist - or any other Trek series for that matter. From TOS on, Trek has been pretty inclusive with the casting of non-white actors in prominent "hero" roles. TOS had a black woman and an Asian man, TNG had several black actors, as did DS9, and VOY had a black actor, a Native American, a Hispanic, and an Asian.

However, in regards to the 'Code of Honor' episode, I have yet to hear those who are non-White complain about the episode.

It can go both ways, however:

I'm sure there are some who could complain about the predominant white society that 'Star Trek: Insurrection' wanted to portray.

And what about TOS 'The Paradise Syndrome'? We have a white male (Kirk) who comes to save the savage Indians, and fall for the beautiful Indian woman (Marimanee) who is also loved by an Indian warrior(Salish)....who feels threatened by the white male.

And the story of the white male being taken in by Native Americans had been done so much before; as we recall, Star Trek (TOS) came out during the time when the Western was the most popular genre.

'Aquiel' is considered a low episode, but it features Geordi LaForge in a romantic setting with an attractive lady. (If that same episode had featured Picard or Riker, would it have gotten the same flak?)

We can even go so far to look at 'Sub Rosa,' which features Beverly Crusher (white, but she's an underused female in the series) in a romantic setting. (It is also considered a low point in TNG, interestingly, by some). Again, if the story featured Picard or Riker in the same predicament...would it have been considered a high point, Hugo-award winning moment in Star Trek history?

I noticed something else interesting, in reading these posts:

I think the OP had a 'friend' (black, IIRC) who thought that the portrayal of Geordi, Worf were stereotypes; especially during the 80s..which is highly different now. However, some of the posters--white--didn't find anything wrong with it.

'How dare they look for racism! People will look for racism anywhere! Star Trek is above racism!'

With the exception of:

'Code of Honor' which (everytime this topic comes up, which is several times a month) majority of white Trek fans have a problem with the episode.

I have still, to this day, have not heard a black, Asian, or non-white Latino (who is a vocal Trek fan) complain about it.

So yes, I would agree:

Some people WOULD look for racism anywhere...especially if they see something they are not used to.

Hello, African-American Trek fan here.
"Code of Honor" is racist, just as "Up The Long Ladder" is offensive to those that are Irish. Michael Dorn & Levar Burton themselves won't even speak about the ep. I'm also aware of Latino & Native American posters here that have spoken up several times about how racially offesive "Code of Honor" is.
I don't think anyone anywhere is used or would be used to seeing black men making their black women fight to the death over the affections of white women. It's barbaric and a very racist view of blacks.
However, on the whole TNG isn't racist.

IMO the OP's friend is unfortunately a little misguided.
LaForge is not racist but rather a possitive role model for not just minority but for everyone because Geordi is a minority within a minority that excells to spite his disabilities. Regardless of him being blind, LaForge is Chief Engineer. So not only is he smart but he's in the top position in his field on the ship he serves.

It's good to hear your thoughts, exodus...

 

[exodus]

True. But in the acting and modeling professions, age, weight, height, body shape, race, ethnicity, and gender are all bona fide qualifications for a job or to be cast in a particular role.

You beat me to it. These may be questionable practices, and I don't think anyone's fully defending these practices, but from a purely objective point of view it can be argued that casting a black actor for Worf's role was logical for the reasons I stated above.

My other point in my original post hasn't been discussed, so I'd like to bring it up again, if I may. From what I can work out, the friend the OP is talking about appears to take offense to a black person being presented as blind. So is this person taking offense to the disability? In my opinion taking offense at a person of a particular ethnic or geographic background being portrayed as disabled shifts the focus from racism to disablism. Thoughts?

Believe it or not, I can understand where the OP's friend is coming from. As I mentioned in another post, in the 80s/90s we had black characters that had to have 'something' going on with them.

For example:

*You had the MANTIS character disabled in 'MANTIS.'

*You had the Norton Drake character disabled in 'War of the Worlds.'

*You had Geordi LaForge disabled in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation.'

*Michael Dorn had a big football on his head in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation.'

So, yeah, it was a little cliched there...

Now, as for the racial casting of the Klingon's, in regards to Worf, IIRC:

I take it this was before Picard, Riker, and everyone else was cast.

If it was open-casting for everyone (for example: a black/Asian/Latino/Native American actor could have been cast for Riker or Picard, or a black/Asian/Native American/Latino actress for Crusher or Troi...I don't think there would be a major problem).

I was looking at it as if they had specific casting for the other roles(meaning they were specifically looking for white actors); and they just happened to want to specifically look for black actors for the Worf and LaForge roles.

I'm assuming the case was the former example; open casting.

Still, I think the 2009 film did a better job with casting...not only in the aliens, but the human characters. So, there is no question that the casting director did his or her job in finding anyone (no matter their racial background) for the roles...save for the major characters...

However, in regards to the 'Code of Honor' episode, I have yet to hear those who are non-White complain about the episode.

It can go both ways, however:

I'm sure there are some who could complain about the predominant white society that 'Star Trek: Insurrection' wanted to portray.

And what about TOS 'The Paradise Syndrome'? We have a white male (Kirk) who comes to save the savage Indians, and fall for the beautiful Indian woman (Marimanee) who is also loved by an Indian warrior(Salish)....who feels threatened by the white male.

And the story of the white male being taken in by Native Americans had been done so much before; as we recall, Star Trek (TOS) came out during the time when the Western was the most popular genre.

'Aquiel' is considered a low episode, but it features Geordi LaForge in a romantic setting with an attractive lady. (If that same episode had featured Picard or Riker, would it have gotten the same flak?)

We can even go so far to look at 'Sub Rosa,' which features Beverly Crusher (white, but she's an underused female in the series) in a romantic setting. (It is also considered a low point in TNG, interestingly, by some). Again, if the story featured Picard or Riker in the same predicament...would it have been considered a high point, Hugo-award winning moment in Star Trek history?

I noticed something else interesting, in reading these posts:

I think the OP had a 'friend' (black, IIRC) who thought that the portrayal of Geordi, Worf were stereotypes; especially during the 80s..which is highly different now. However, some of the posters--white--didn't find anything wrong with it.

'How dare they look for racism! People will look for racism anywhere! Star Trek is above racism!'

With the exception of:

'Code of Honor' which (everytime this topic comes up, which is several times a month) majority of white Trek fans have a problem with the episode.

I have still, to this day, have not heard a black, Asian, or non-white Latino (who is a vocal Trek fan) complain about it.

So yes, I would agree:

Some people WOULD look for racism anywhere...especially if they see something they are not used to.

Hello, African-American Trek fan here.
"Code of Honor" is racist, just as "Up The Long Ladder" is offensive to those that are Irish. Michael Dorn & Levar Burton themselves won't even speak about the ep. I'm also aware of Latino & Native American posters here that have spoken up several times about how racially offesive "Code of Honor" is.
I don't think anyone anywhere is used or would be used to seeing black men making their black women fight to the death over the affections of white women. It's barbaric and a very racist view of blacks.
However, on the whole TNG isn't racist.

IMO the OP's friend is unfortunately a little misguided.
LaForge is not racist but rather a possitive role model for not just minority but for everyone because Geordi is a minority within a minority that excells to spite his disabilities. Regardless of him being blind, LaForge is Chief Engineer. So not only is he smart but he's in the top position in his field on the ship he serves.

It's good to hear your thoughts, exodus...

Thank you, much appreciated.

 

[scotpens]

"Blind Black Man" is not a racist stereotype. Never has been. There are no ethnic stereotypes associated with blindness.

Unless you count the stereotype of the Irish and Scots frequently getting blind drunk.

 

[indolover]

I disagree that Dorn was cast as a "brute" for Worf. Whilst Worf is obviously Klingon, and Klingons are warriors and by nature violent and aggressive, Worf was probably less Klingon-like than most other Klingons we see since he had to adapt to live among humans. I can't think of any time in TNG or DS9 where he was brutish, unless delivering a baby and raising a son, or helping a Ferengi he hated to win a woman he thought was hot are brutish actions.

Besides, the premise of a Trek show (frankly any Trek show) being racist is laughable and inane, since it would go directly against the Roddenberry vision. It would also be wholly ironic, since TOS was probably the major US series of its era to have black main characters (or non-white in general if we include Sulu/George Takei).

 

[zar]

I disagree that Dorn was cast as a "brute" for Worf. Whilst Worf is obviously Klingon, and Klingons are warriors and by nature violent and aggressive, Worf was probably less Klingon-like than most other Klingons we see since he had to adapt to live among humans. I can't think of any time in TNG or DS9 where he was brutish

See season 1. Before they actually developed the character, he was too Klingon. He was a complete animalistic idiot, really.

Anyway the reason Dorn was chosen probably had more to do with his voice than anything.

 

[Harvey]

Besides, the premise of a Trek show (frankly any Trek show) being racist is laughable and inane, since it would go directly against the Roddenberry vision. It would also be wholly ironic, since TOS was probably the major US series of its era to have black main characters (or non-white in general if we include Sulu/George Takei).

Not to disparage the diversity of casting, but it's already been pointed out that I, Spy had an African-American co-lead and it premiered the year before Star Trek. It took the franchise more than 25 years to do the same (Uhura, LaForge, and Worf being supporting players).