Wait... was TNG racist?

[T'Girl]

I don't think anyone anywhere is used or would be used to seeing black men making their black women fight to the death over the affections of white women. It's barbaric and a very racist view of blacks.

As I understand the culture depicted in the episode, the two participants is the fight would ordinarily have been both black women.

In many ways this episode reminds me of Amok Time. Lutan and T'Pring both want to be freed of their "marriages," Lutan for wealth and T'Pring for Stonn. Both would acomplish their goal through a challenge to a death duel. Both used manipulation to engage a Human as one of the combatants. Both wanted the Human to kill their spouse (the first of three possibilities T'Pring presented to Spock). Both figured they would have lost nothing even if the fight didn't go the way they intended, although Lutan did become Yareena's second husband through miscalculation.

I do not as see this as racially offensive, simply because all the actors cast were from a single racial group, the Ligonians' weren't depicted as particularly stupid or devious. Unless you can say that it still would have been racist if the cast had been completely European, East Asia or Arabic, ... well then your argument just falls apart.

 

[exodus]

I don't think anyone anywhere is used or would be used to seeing black men making their black women fight to the death over the affections of white women. It's barbaric and a very racist view of blacks.

As I understand the culture depicted in the episode, the two participants is the fight would ordinarily have been both black women.

In many ways this episode reminds me of Amok Time. Lutan and T'Pring both want to be freed of their "marriages," Lutan for wealth and T'Pring for Stonn. Both would acomplish their goal through a challenge to a death duel. Both used manipulation to engage a Human as one of the combatants. Both wanted the Human to kill their spouse (the first of three possibilities T'Pring presented to Spock). Both figured they would have lost nothing even if the fight didn't go the way they intended, although Lutan did become Yareena's second husband through miscalculation.

I do not as see this as racially offensive, simply because all the actors cast were from a single racial group, the Ligonians' weren't depicted as particularly stupid or devious. Unless you can say that it still would have been racist if the cast had been completely European, East Asia or Arabic, ... well then your argument just falls apart.

I guess you aren't aware of the stereotype that black men dismiss black women for white ones due to what they see as a status symbol of being more acceptable within white society. It's exactly what's being shown within the ep. itself.

Of course not, if you had you're dismissive attitude of "if it's not offensive to me, then it's not offensive at all " stance falls apart because of course the only way it could be racist is if they're depicted as stupid or devious. Thank you for not even trying to understand why it's seen as racist, even by those of the race being shown.

Thank you for posting one of the most insensitive posts I've ever read outside TNZ. Good job.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I do not as see this as racially offensive, simply because all the actors cast were from a single racial group, the Ligonians' weren't depicted as particularly stupid or devious. Unless you can say that it still would have been racist if the cast had been completely European, East Asia or Arabic.

Interesting...

I don't think anyone anywhere is used or would be used to seeing black men making their black women fight to the death over the affections of white women. It's barbaric and a very racist view of blacks.

As I understand the culture depicted in the episode, the two participants is the fight would ordinarily have been both black women.

In many ways this episode reminds me of Amok Time. Lutan and T'Pring both want to be freed of their "marriages," Lutan for wealth and T'Pring for Stonn. Both would acomplish their goal through a challenge to a death duel. Both used manipulation to engage a Human as one of the combatants. Both wanted the Human to kill their spouse (the first of three possibilities T'Pring presented to Spock). Both figured they would have lost nothing even if the fight didn't go the way they intended, although Lutan did become Yareena's second husband through miscalculation.

I do not as see this as racially offensive, simply because all the actors cast were from a single racial group, the Ligonians' weren't depicted as particularly stupid or devious. Unless you can say that it still would have been racist if the cast had been completely European, East Asia or Arabic, ... well then your argument just falls apart.

I guess you aren't aware of the stereotype that black men dismiss black women for white ones due to what they see as a status symbol of being more acceptable within white society. It's exactly what's being shown within the ep. itself

Well, let me put this (and I'm not saying your comments are right or wrong):

In VOY, all of the women Harry Kim was paired with were white...(Would Harry feel he is more ingrained in white society if he only pursues white females?)

However, in TNG, they had Keiko--an Asian woman--marry a white man (Miles O'Brien). On top of that, they had Alyssa Ogawa also with a white man. So, we can also argue(based on what you said with Lutan and Tasha Yar) these Asian women--Ogawa and Keiko--felt they were rising up in status because they were pairing themselves with white males. (And there is the further stereotype of Asian women who dismiss Asian males for white males, and to a lesser extent black males).

Now, we can also argue if Tasha Yar was a hot, black/Asian/or Latino female...there may have not been an issue. (Of course, since this particular episode had many black individuals, no doubt there would have been something that causes controversy).

 

[zar]

Has Burton ever commented on the character in this light? Would be interested hearing any thoughts on this, be they pro or con.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjBR5R-bAGk#t=1m50s

Here's the official word, 1:50 - "I think that's such a cool combination."

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

However, in TNG, they had Keiko--an Asian woman--marry a white man (Miles O'Brien). On top of that, they had Alyssa Ogawa also with a white man. So, we can also argue(based on what you said with Lutan and Tasha Yar) these Asian women--Ogawa and Keiko--felt they were rising up in status because they were pairing themselves with white males. (And there is the further stereotype of Asian women who dismiss Asian males for white males).

Hm...with O'Brien, I'm actually not sure a stereotype would apply. O'Brien is a very smart man, of course, but he's enlisted. He presumably has not been to college, and as such Keiko is going to be the higher-status individual of the two when it comes to education. (I am assuming that her occupation of "botanist" means that she finished college. I am also assuming that within the Federation, the concept of financial status is tougher to define and not as apparent as modern day, which leaves education and career achievement as the main determinant of status.)

While being enlisted might not mean quite the same thing it does in our military, I think that if Keiko had wanted to use marriage as a tool to "increase" her status, she would've married an officer, not an enlisted man.

(Now, the issue of whether she and O'Brien had similar enough visions of how to run a family to really be good partners for each other is a whole other thread unrelated to race.)

 

[Joel_Kirk]

However, in TNG, they had Keiko--an Asian woman--marry a white man (Miles O'Brien). On top of that, they had Alyssa Ogawa also with a white man. So, we can also argue(based on what you said with Lutan and Tasha Yar) these Asian women--Ogawa and Keiko--felt they were rising up in status because they were pairing themselves with white males. (And there is the further stereotype of Asian women who dismiss Asian males for white males).

Hm...with O'Brien, I'm actually not sure a stereotype would apply. O'Brien is a very smart man, of course, but he's enlisted. He presumably has not been to college, and as such Keiko is going to be the higher-status individual of the two when it comes to education. (I am assuming that her occupation of "botanist" means that she finished college. I am also assuming that within the Federation, the concept of financial status is tougher to define and not as apparent as modern day, which leaves education and career achievement as the main determinant of status.)

While being enlisted might not mean quite the same thing it does in our military, I think that if Keiko had wanted to use marriage as a tool to "increase" her status, she would've married an officer, not an enlisted man.

(Now, the issue of whether she and O'Brien had similar enough visions of how to run a family to really be good partners for each other is a whole other thread unrelated to race.)

No, no...

I was just using an analogy...

I think exodus was trying to bring out that because Lutan is a dark-skinned individual, he would see automatically Tasha Yar (a 'white' female) as a status symbol.

If that were true, all other 20th/21st century stereotypes would apply as well, whether or not they were alien or human. (With Keiko and Ogawa, no matter the rank...as long as they marry/date a white male, they're more ingrained in white society).

However, this is supposed to be the 24th century, where color/race/religion doesn't necessarily matter.

Going back to Lutan; he (being an alien) wouldn't know about our racial hangups on Earth; and he probably would think us primitive for being so.

If I'm not mistaken, Lutan was attracted to Tasha Yar because she kicked-ass. If there was a woman happened to be Cardassian/Klingon/Romulan/Vulcan, attractive, and could handle herself in a fight...I'm sure she would have caught his attentions as well.

 

[Anwar]

Like I said, the script didn't call for the Ligonians to be all played by African-Americans. If they had just made them a bunch of white folk as well, would it seem racist at all or simply sexist?

Wait, that doesn't sound right since now it seems like I regard sexism as less offensive...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Sorry...I thought you were being serious, and I was actually trying to seriously answer why said stereotype didn't make sense!

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Like I said, the script didn't call for the Ligonians to be all played by African-Americans. If they had just made them a bunch of white folk as well, would it seem racist at all or simply sexist?

Wait, that doesn't sound right since now it seems like I regard sexism as less offensive...

Sorry...I thought you were being serious, and I was actually trying to seriously answer why said stereotype didn't make sense!

No, I was serious...

...but I agree with you, applying our real-world stereotypes to a series (in particular this episode) that is supposed to be color-blind doesn't make sense.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yeah...racial hangups on an alien world would likely come from entirely different sources. Assuming that the SAME hangups would occur on all worlds--that, I think, would be a mistake with very unfortunate implications.

Sorry again to go to my own fanfic as an example, but I figure that when Cardassians go for ethnic stereotypes, ridging patterns are the most likely object of discrimination. I suspect that the phenotypes that on worlds like Earth and Vulcan are recognized as "black" and "white" would be practically meaningless to them...just a slight difference in bone structure underneath the ridges, and not very important.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Yeah...racial hangups on an alien world would likely come from entirely different sources. Assuming that the SAME hangups would occur on all worlds--that, I think, would be a mistake with very unfortunate implications.

Sorry again to go to my own fanfic as an example, but I figure that when Cardassians go for ethnic stereotypes, ridging patterns are the most likely object of discrimination. I suspect that the phenotypes that on worlds like Earth and Vulcan are recognized as "black" and "white" would be practically meaningless to them...just a slight difference in bone structure underneath the ridges, and not very important.

Well, I don't even think Vulcans would see 'black' and 'white' since we've already seen 'Asian'-looking Vulcans...and there are probably other types of Vulcan's out there...(And it would be illogical--for lack of a better term--to base Earth's 20th/21st century hangups on Vulcan society since Vulcans are supposed to be more logical than humans anyhow).

I would think Cardassians would only discriminate based on financial or military status, or like you mentioned, ridge patterns (or even if one is Bajoran or not); and, Ferengi would only discriminate based on financial status...and if you are a female or not, of course.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I realize I'm having a bit of trouble phrasing it, but what I was trying to get at was that any physiological characteristics that would correlate with different melanin levels, on two worlds, is barely even going to be an object of notice for ANY reason on a world where the upper layer of skin is defined by scales and ridges, not by the kind of epidermis a human or Vulcan has. Suggesting that Vulcans would have racial hangups wasn't my intent--I completely agree that such would be the height of illogic. I could see each group of people honoring their ancestors, but simply as a means of each individual understanding their personal history and not something where race as we understand it would ever enter into it.

As for Cardassians...I definitely admire what they have the potential to become, but one thing I won't deny is that they DO have a major and highly destructive problem with speciesism in their society and if they don't get over that post-Dominion War, if they don't learn their lesson, they are going to pay even more than they already have for what they've done.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I realize I'm having a bit of trouble phrasing it, but what I was trying to get at was that any physiological characteristics that would correlate with different melanin levels, on two worlds, is barely even going to be an object of notice for ANY reason on a world where the upper layer of skin is defined by scales and ridges, not by the kind of epidermis a human or Vulcan has. Suggesting that Vulcans would have racial hangups wasn't my intent--I completely agree that such would be the height of illogic. I could see each group of people honoring their ancestors, but simply as a means of each individual understanding their personal history and not something where race as we understand it would ever enter into it.

As for Cardassians...I definitely admire what they have the potential to become, but one thing I won't deny is that they DO have a major and highly destructive problem with speciesism in their society and if they don't get over that post-Dominion War, if they don't learn their lesson, they are going to pay even more than they already have for what they've done.

I see....

 

[BrownShatner]

Geordi fits in with the "black nerd with glasses" stereotype which was huge in the 1980s. Whenever some show needed a random "computer whiz" character, it always seemed to be some bespeckled black kid. This got to be such a huge cliche that it was parodied by Urkel in whatever that show was.

I don't know if that was intentional, and it was always supposed to be a positive stereotype anyway, so I don't think it takes anything away from the character. But it is a pretty good bet that is what they were thinking.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

We never got any blond or ginger Vulcans. Now that's a real tragedy.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Aside from the very unfortunate "Code of Honor" episode, I can't see how you can call TNG racist - or any other Trek series for that matter. From TOS on, Trek has been pretty inclusive with the casting of non-white actors in prominent "hero" roles. TOS had a black woman and an Asian man, TNG had several black actors, as did DS9, and VOY had a black actor, a Native American, a Hispanic, and an Asian.

However, in regards to the 'Code of Honor' episode, I have yet to hear those who are non-White complain about the episode.

It can go both ways, however:

I'm sure there are some who could complain about the predominant white society that 'Star Trek: Insurrection' wanted to portray.

And what about TOS 'The Paradise Syndrome'? We have a white male (Kirk) who comes to save the savage Indians, and fall for the beautiful Indian woman (Marimanee) who is also loved by an Indian warrior(Salish)....who feels threatened by the white male.

And the story of the white male being taken in by Native Americans had been done so much before; as we recall, Star Trek (TOS) came out during the time when the Western was the most popular genre.

'Aquiel' is considered a low episode, but it features Geordi LaForge in a romantic setting with an attractive lady. (If that same episode had featured Picard or Riker, would it have gotten the same flak?)

We can even go so far to look at 'Sub Rosa,' which features Beverly Crusher (white, but she's an underused female in the series) in a romantic setting. (It is also considered a low point in TNG, interestingly, by some). Again, if the story featured Picard or Riker in the same predicament...would it have been considered a high point, Hugo-award winning moment in Star Trek history?

I noticed something else interesting, in reading these posts:

I think the OP had a 'friend' (black, IIRC) who thought that the portrayal of Geordi, Worf were stereotypes; especially during the 80s..which is highly different now. However, some of the posters--white--didn't find anything wrong with it.

'How dare they look for racism! People will look for racism anywhere! Star Trek is above racism!'

With the exception of:

'Code of Honor' which (everytime this topic comes up, which is several times a month) majority of white Trek fans have a problem with the episode.

I have still, to this day, have not heard a black, Asian, or non-white Latino (who is a vocal Trek fan) complain about it.

So yes, I would agree:

Some people WOULD look for racism anywhere...especially if they see something they are not used to.

Hate to break it to you, but there are people of color who do hate 'Code Of Honor', you just don't know then very well.

As for what you said above, I agree: that's why I try not to go to
a certain website that focuses on racial matters anymore, due to this kind of behavior.

 

[exodus]

I do not as see this as racially offensive, simply because all the actors cast were from a single racial group, the Ligonians' weren't depicted as particularly stupid or devious. Unless you can say that it still would have been racist if the cast had been completely European, East Asia or Arabic.

Interesting...

As I understand the culture depicted in the episode, the two participants is the fight would ordinarily have been both black women.

In many ways this episode reminds me of Amok Time. Lutan and T'Pring both want to be freed of their "marriages," Lutan for wealth and T'Pring for Stonn. Both would acomplish their goal through a challenge to a death duel. Both used manipulation to engage a Human as one of the combatants. Both wanted the Human to kill their spouse (the first of three possibilities T'Pring presented to Spock). Both figured they would have lost nothing even if the fight didn't go the way they intended, although Lutan did become Yareena's second husband through miscalculation.

I do not as see this as racially offensive, simply because all the actors cast were from a single racial group, the Ligonians' weren't depicted as particularly stupid or devious. Unless you can say that it still would have been racist if the cast had been completely European, East Asia or Arabic, ... well then your argument just falls apart.

I guess you aren't aware of the stereotype that black men dismiss black women for white ones due to what they see as a status symbol of being more acceptable within white society. It's exactly what's being shown within the ep. itself

Well, let me put this (and I'm not saying your comments are right or wrong):

In VOY, all of the women Harry Kim was paired with were white...(Would Harry feel he is more ingrained in white society if he only pursues white females?)

However, in TNG, they had Keiko--an Asian woman--marry a white man (Miles O'Brien). On top of that, they had Alyssa Ogawa also with a white man. So, we can also argue(based on what you said with Lutan and Tasha Yar) these Asian women--Ogawa and Keiko--felt they were rising up in status because they were pairing themselves with white males. (And there is the further stereotype of Asian women who dismiss Asian males for white males, and to a lesser extent black males).

Now, we can also argue if Tasha Yar was a hot, black/Asian/or Latino female...there may have not been an issue. (Of course, since this particular episode had many black individuals, no doubt there would have been something that causes controversy).

I completely see what you're saying but IMO(and that of many of my race) the fact that the woman in "Code Of Honor" were made to fight for the affections of the "King" as vulgar & animalistic. Which is another racist stereotype put upon blacks as far back as slavery. It paints black people as less than human but rather like animals and portrays black women as less than diginifed and objects for their man's amusement. Not as people to be honored and respected or as equals. It's the very reason why the old "Tazan" films are seen as racist as well. The blacks in "Code.." are shown to be nothing more than monkey spear chuckers.

While Kim & Keiko were paired with white partners, they still did so with dignity. Showing that it was also a cultural pairing, the example was O'Brian embraced Keiko's Asian culture(They had a Japanese style wedding, as one example) as much as he did his own. He didn't take her and try to break her to his will or impose his culture on her or treat her as less than human. They treated each other as equals. Most times Keiko was the dominate one in the relationship, not the stereotype of the submissive Asian female. I feel they broke stereotype with her, while in "Code.." they embrassed it. It baffles me that any American that took history or is aware the events of slavery through the Civil Rights movement could be that unaware that such an ep. wouldn't be seen as racist. You'd really have to be blind to your fellow man or unaware of your own bigotry not to.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Going back to Lutan; he (being an alien) wouldn't know about our racial hangups on Earth; and he probably would think us primitive for being so.

Lutan was only technically an alien. The Ligonians looked so much like humans that they might as well have been human. In fact it is possible that Ligon II is a human colony.

 

[Jamee999]

The world of the future is idealised...we will have no racism, no stereotypes...and no Lieutenant Yar!

 

[Cyke101]

Geordi fits in with the "black nerd with glasses" stereotype which was huge in the 1980s. Whenever some show needed a random "computer whiz" character, it always seemed to be some bespeckled black kid. This got to be such a huge cliche that it was parodied by Urkel in whatever that show was.

To be fair, I think bespeckled kids were always nerded-up in the 1980s, not just black kids. White kids and Asian kids would wear giant frames too in TV/Film to denote nerdiness. (I can't recall any Latino/Hispanic examples, though).

Though I did like Dwayne Wayne from A Different World. He was one of the first "cool" nerds, and he had the flip-up shades over his glasses.

It's funny that you brought up the computer whiz trope, though. I think Wesley Crusher fills out that role more than Geordi, but it was also a trend back in the 80s, too. Weird Science, Wargames, Tron, etc.

I don't know if that was intentional, and it was always supposed to be a positive stereotype anyway, so I don't think it takes anything away from the character. But it is a pretty good bet that is what they were thinking.

IIRC, Roddenberry created the character of LaForge in honor of a Trekkie who himself was blind, so that's half the equation right there. No idea if this person was black either, but if so then that's where LaForge as we know him comes from.