Wait... was TNG racist?

[scotpens]

I suppose your friend didn't realize that Star Trek/Gene Roddenberry was the first to actually cast a real life black person as a main character of a daytime show in the 60's, which helped break the color barrier of that time when it came to african americans being on tv?

I assume you mean a prime-time evening show. Daytime is when they put on game shows and soap operas.

In any case, that credit belongs to Sheldon Leonard, producer of I Spy. Bill Cosby co-starred and had roughly equal screen time with star Robert Culp, unlike Nichelle Nichols, who played a supporting role. I Spy debuted in 1965, a year before Star Trek.

The humans of Trek had to be the "balanced" species so the contrast with other species could be heightened. Other Trek species were really a metaphor for different aspects of humanity. At least that's what I always thought.

That's been a trope of science-fiction writing for decades -- the "Planet of Hats."

The "African blind man cliche", huh? Sounds a lot like the the "Mexican accountant", "Australian stock broker" or "Japanese leprechaun" cliches in that it DOESN'T EXIST.

I happen to know that Mexicans make very good accountants -- and Jews are surprisingly good at gardening!

 

[Praxius]

Klingons are violent by nature. Ferengi are greedy by nature...

If you group human beings by their backgrounds and make the same kinds of broad statements about them, you're being bigoted. Same quality of thinking that Trek puts into "alien races."

And yet, through many examples in all the different ST shows, many of those alien races have had many individuals of those races express different thinking.... be that for better or worse..... many who thought outside of the box for their own personal reasons.

IMO, Trek never put that into their alien races..... they put in cultural beliefs and practices in many of their alien races.... such as in our culture and society, people are innocent until proven guilty.... yet I believe in Mexico, people are guilty until prove innocent. We believe in certain rights, where in other places in the world, they believe in different rights.

Yet to brand everybody in our society with the same brush and the same way of thinking would be ignorant..... and they show this time and time again in Star Trek.

Take O'Brien's attitude early on towards Cardassians..... when you finally got to know a few of them, you learned that they're not all the same.... sure some are typical stereo-types of that species, but there are many others that are not..... look at Garak, Damar, what's her face who Quark had a thing for and she wanted to help her "Students" who were planning to topple the military rule on their home world...... Ghemor..... the Romulans Spock was helping..... the list goes on.

How about Rom for the Ferengi.... or Nog? Heck, even Quark had many moments.

And then you have the ones who went bad in the typical good guy species..... Dr. Soran, Duras and the Duras sisters.

Let's go back a bit and focus on Tom Riker and the Maquis..... based on Stereo-Types... one would think Humans were perfect, kind, peace keepers, etc..... that we were completely loyal to Starfleet, yet if that were actually true, we wouldn't have half the bad guys we had in Star Trek.

Star Trek VI..... how many in Starfleet were willing to assassinate their own president and why would a klingon do something so dishonorable as to be a part of assassinating their own chancellor, Gorkon?

Flip it back to our reality..... does it make sense to generalize all Americans or all Canadians, Australians, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, etc. with the same brush?

Heck, just in our western societies alone we have multiple political and sociological divides (Conservative/Liberal, etc.) yet even in those divides, there are even further divides between those.......

 

[Nardpuncher]

Now if LaForge were a blind musician we'd have something, what with Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles!

 

[Joshonator]

It would have been stupid to have a white guy playing Geordi, he would have resembled cyclops too much... Klingons being violent doesn't really prove anything, they were violent in the original series also but the actors weren't even black. Any racist implications made by the series were clearly unintentional. Gene Roddenberry even wanted to have a female no.1 in the original series which is why NBC rejected the pilot. His goal was to convey the future as stereotype-free.

 

[Dale]

If any Trek series could be said to have portrayed racist stereotypes it'd be TOS, the two main villians of which were the swarthy, Arabesque Klingons and the vaguely Asiatic Romulans... but TOS was a product of its era and any unintended racism was certainly countered by the ground-breaking portrayal of a smart, capable African woman as a senior officer and its general message of unity and tolerance.

As for TNG... I don't think Geordi's race was ever an issue at all, and I think it's a remarkable stretch to call the "blind black man" a stereotype.

If TNG-era Klingons or any of the other aliens happened to resemble a particular race or nationality, it was because TNG, like its predecessor, sought to present morality plays and to deal with the contentious issues of the day under the guise of science fiction.

An argument can be made that TNG aliens were simplistic in that most of the cultures portrayed seemed to have one main cultural trait, but that's a conciet of the storytelling, a convenience used to explore particular facets of human nature.

I have a hard time thinking of a more socially progressive show than the various incarnations of Star Trek over the years.

 

[Cyke101]

It would have been stupid to have a white guy playing Geordi, he would have resembled cyclops too much...

I somehow doubt that.

His goal was to convey the future as stereotype-free.

Stereotype-free for humans, but not really with non-humans. As you yourself pointed out, Klingons were always depicted as violent brutes in TOS. Even in TNG/DS9/VOY, everyone stereotyped Klingons as brutes, Romulans as sneaky, Ferengi as greedy, Vulcans as stiff, and Cardassians as opportunistic.

 

[DevilEyes]

And then you have the ones who went bad in the typical good guy species..... Dr. Soran, Duras and the Duras sisters.

The Klingons are a "typical good guy species"?!

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Aside from the very unfortunate "Code of Honor" episode, I can't see how you can call TNG racist - or any other Trek series for that matter. From TOS on, Trek has been pretty inclusive with the casting of non-white actors in prominent "hero" roles. TOS had a black woman and an Asian man, TNG had several black actors, as did DS9, and VOY had a black actor, a Native American, a Hispanic, and an Asian.

However, in regards to the 'Code of Honor' episode, I have yet to hear those who are non-White complain about the episode.

It can go both ways, however:

I'm sure there are some who could complain about the predominant white society that 'Star Trek: Insurrection' wanted to portray.

And what about TOS 'The Paradise Syndrome'? We have a white male (Kirk) who comes to save the savage Indians, and fall for the beautiful Indian woman (Marimanee) who is also loved by an Indian warrior(Salish)....who feels threatened by the white male.

And the story of the white male being taken in by Native Americans had been done so much before; as we recall, Star Trek (TOS) came out during the time when the Western was the most popular genre.

'Aquiel' is considered a low episode, but it features Geordi LaForge in a romantic setting with an attractive lady. (If that same episode had featured Picard or Riker, would it have gotten the same flak?)

We can even go so far to look at 'Sub Rosa,' which features Beverly Crusher (white, but she's an underused female in the series) in a romantic setting. (It is also considered a low point in TNG, interestingly, by some). Again, if the story featured Picard or Riker in the same predicament...would it have been considered a high point, Hugo-award winning moment in Star Trek history?

I noticed something else interesting, in reading these posts:

I think the OP had a 'friend' (black, IIRC) who thought that the portrayal of Geordi, Worf were stereotypes; especially during the 80s..which is highly different now. However, some of the posters--white--didn't find anything wrong with it.

'How dare they look for racism! People will look for racism anywhere! Star Trek is above racism!'

With the exception of:

'Code of Honor' which (everytime this topic comes up, which is several times a month) majority of white Trek fans have a problem with the episode.

I have still, to this day, have not heard a black, Asian, or non-white Latino (who is a vocal Trek fan) complain about it.

So yes, I would agree:

Some people WOULD look for racism anywhere...especially if they see something they are not used to.

 

[Harvey]

You're definitely not the first person to bring up the uncomfortable racial implications of Star Trek: Insurrection and the "perfect" community it portrays...which just happens to be all-white! It's not so much a problem with the script as a problem with casting.

More of a response later, though. Real life invades.

 

[scotpens]

If any Trek series could be said to have portrayed racist stereotypes it'd be TOS, the two main villians of which were the swarthy, Arabesque Klingons and the vaguely Asiatic Romulans...

Actually it was the TOS Klingons who were vaguely Asiatic -- “the Mongol hordes with spaceships and ray guns” was one writer's description -- while the original Romulans were all too obviously based on the Greco-Roman model. In “Balance of Terror,” the episode that introduced the Romulans, they even had Latin-sounding names and were ruled by a Praetor.

 

[Mary Ann]

If I recall correctly, a black actor was cast for Worf in order to reduce time for the actor in the makeup chair. I assume this is why the ethnic background of guest star Klingons didn't matter, as it didn't matter if their occasional makeup application took longer than Dorn's.

In regards to the OP, is your friend complaining that a black person is portrayed as "disabled"? If so, isn't your friend guilty of disablism?

 

[Joel_Kirk]

If I recall correctly, a black actor was cast for Worf in order to reduce time for the actor in the makeup chair. I assume this is why the ethnic background of guest star Klingons didn't matter, as it didn't matter if their occasional makeup application took longer than Dorn's.

This post can actually be taken apart:

*A black actor was cast as a brute so he would spend less time in the makeup chair....?

(Doesn't make sense...)

Furthermore, why would he spend less time in the make-up chair than an actor of any other race?

*Now it is brought out in the post that the ethnic background didn't matter....but why would a black actor be hired if he wasn't to spend as much time in the make-up chair...(Again, as you read this aloud it's contradicting, and doesn't make sense)...

Is it because it takes less time for the dark-skinned folks to have make-up applied to their skin...? Was this only in regards to the 'Klingon' roles? Or....?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I actually did not catch on to the fact that Michael Dorn was black, until I saw an interview of him out of makeup. I actually remember being surprised, because I hadn't noticed any clues one way or the other. All I'd seen was "Klingon," and I guess any human features didn't really stand out to me.

I DID, however, get Casey Biggs' race wrong, until I saw him out of makeup...I had figured him to be black. But Cardassian makeup is even heavier than the Klingon kind, and until I got a LOT better at drawing (and to do that you have to learn how to study people to render their features accurately), I couldn't tell the difference under all of those prosthetics.

The one casting choice in modern Trek I always found very poorly chosen by the producers was Legate Broca. I think that we should have seen an African-American actor or two get a speaking role as Cardassians in the Rebellion before we saw Broca, personally, because otherwise his simpering personality could come off very offensive. Now in the case of the Cardassians, I suspect that it simply never occurred to any of the producers--since Cardassians are SO heavily made up, I doubt human race entered anybody's mind, so I do not ascribe any malicious intent or anything willful at all to them. "Thoughtlessness" is what they had...with a little more diversity in the speaking Cardassian cast to begin with, it wouldn't have been in the slightest bit noticeable.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

The one casting choice in modern Trek I always found very poorly chosen by the producers was Legate Broca. I think that we should have seen an African-American actor or two get a speaking role as Cardassians in the Rebellion before we saw Broca, personally, because otherwise his simpering personality could come off very offensive. Now in the case of the Cardassians, I suspect that it simply never occurred to any of the producers--since Cardassians are SO heavily made up, I doubt human race entered anybody's mind, so I do not ascribe any malicious intent or anything willful at all to them. "Thoughtlessness" is what they had.

Yes, I recall your thoughts on Legate Broca and I did initially realize he was portrayed by a black actor...

Yes, I think that character got what was coming to him in the end. (He was pretty fascinating, I think).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The character, of course, was written to be very deserving of the fate he got, and the actor himself did a good job with making me want to punch Broca in the face. He's not the one I blame.

Still, I think a little more context would've been useful--especially since the Cardassians (and Bajorans) had become the most well-rounded species in Trekdom other than humanity, and the writers had really aspired to a higher standard when it came to how to depict them.

 

[DevilEyes]

I noticed something else interesting, in reading these posts:

I think the OP had a 'friend' (black, IIRC) who thought that the portrayal of Geordi, Worf were stereotypes; especially during the 80s..which is highly different now. However, some of the posters--white--didn't find anything wrong with it.

'How dare they look for racism! People will look for racism anywhere! Star Trek is above racism!'

With the exception of:

'Code of Honor' which (everytime this topic comes up, which is several times a month) majority of white Trek fans have a problem with the episode.

I have still, to this day, have not heard a black, Asian, or non-white Latino (who is a vocal Trek fan) complain about it.

So yes, I would agree:

Some people WOULD look for racism anywhere...especially if they see something they are not used to.

1) How do you know that the OP's friend is black? There is no mention of it anywhere in the opening post.

Was just having a convo with a friend on twitter when she threw out that TNG was racist. I asked her to back that statement up (because I guess I figured that TNG was very much not racist) and she said:

The manner in which they represent the races is cliched and borders on offensive = racism e.g. Geordie : african "blindman" cliche, Worf : primal, sexual, aggressive, struggles to control himself.

I guess I can kind of see the Worf thing (although he's meant to be an alien!), but Geordi, a cliche? Really? I've never heard this before, I always saw Geordi as very much removed from a cliched black man.

Is there such a thing as an 'African Blind Man' cliche? And if so, do you think Geordi was an example of that? Has Burton ever commented on the character in this light? Would be interested hearing any thoughts on this, be they pro or con.

2) Do you know for sure that posters who didn't agree with that argument were white?

It's quite interesting that you made those assumptions, anyway...

 

[Mary Ann]

If I recall correctly, a black actor was cast for Worf in order to reduce time for the actor in the makeup chair. I assume this is why the ethnic background of guest star Klingons didn't matter, as it didn't matter if their occasional makeup application took longer than Dorn's.

This post can actually be taken apart:

*A black actor was cast as a brute so he would spend less time in the makeup chair....?

(Doesn't make sense...)

Furthermore, why would he spend less time in the make-up chair than an actor of any other race?

*Now it is brought out in the post that the ethnic background didn't matter....but why would a black actor be hired if he wasn't to spend as much time in the make-up chair...(Again, as you read this aloud it's contradicting, and doesn't make sense)...

Is it because it takes less time for the dark-skinned folks to have make-up applied to their skin...? Was this only in regards to the 'Klingon' roles? Or....?

You can interpret my statement in any manner you wish, of course. Apologies if I haven't made myself clear to you. I'll try again, OK?

From what I can remember (and damned if I can remember where I read this) dark-skinned folks in Worf's role would need *less* make-up applied, as a darker skinned actor wouldn't require the full face, neck, and hand make-up; the makeup applied to the prosthetis would be blended into the actor's natural face colour. It's similar to casting calls for short, fat middle-aged women; it would be easier for everyone involved to hire, say, me, rather than a skinny 20-year-old who'd have to be padded up and spend ours in make-up to take on my appearance.

Oh, and I did specifically mention that the casting call was for Worf's part.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I noticed something else interesting, in reading these posts:

I think the OP had a 'friend' (black, IIRC) who thought that the portrayal of Geordi, Worf were stereotypes; especially during the 80s..which is highly different now. However, some of the posters--white--didn't find anything wrong with it.

'How dare they look for racism! People will look for racism anywhere! Star Trek is above racism!'

With the exception of:

'Code of Honor' which (everytime this topic comes up, which is several times a month) majority of white Trek fans have a problem with the episode.

I have still, to this day, have not heard a black, Asian, or non-white Latino (who is a vocal Trek fan) complain about it.

So yes, I would agree:

Some people WOULD look for racism anywhere...especially if they see something they are not used to.

1) How do you know that the OP's friend is black? There is no mention of it anywhere in the opening post.

That is why in my previous post it was said: IIRC...i.e. 'If I remember correctly.'

Obviously, I didn't remember correctly.

The character, of course, was written to be very deserving of the fate he got, and the actor himself did a good job with making me want to punch Broca in the face. He's not the one I blame.

Still, I think a little more context would've been useful--especially since the Cardassians (and Bajorans) had become the most well-rounded species in Trekdom other than humanity, and the writers had really aspired to a higher standard when it came to how to depict them.

IIRC though, the character was in the 7th season, and DS9 stories in the 7th season didn't have as much depth as the previous seasons...

However, let me add to your thoughts:

I don't mind seeing black, Asian, or Latino actors/actresses behind make-up, but during the 80s (especially in regards to Geordi and Worf) it seemed like we couldn't have an actor of color without 'something' added....

Times are a bit different now, especially in regards to Trek...so I expect a lot from Abrams (and any other producer/writer/director that comes into the picture for future features) ...and the new television series that will surely come in a few years.

If I recall correctly, a black actor was cast for Worf in order to reduce time for the actor in the makeup chair. I assume this is why the ethnic background of guest star Klingons didn't matter, as it didn't matter if their occasional makeup application took longer than Dorn's.

This post can actually be taken apart:

*A black actor was cast as a brute so he would spend less time in the makeup chair....?

(Doesn't make sense...)

Furthermore, why would he spend less time in the make-up chair than an actor of any other race?

*Now it is brought out in the post that the ethnic background didn't matter....but why would a black actor be hired if he wasn't to spend as much time in the make-up chair...(Again, as you read this aloud it's contradicting, and doesn't make sense)...

Is it because it takes less time for the dark-skinned folks to have make-up applied to their skin...? Was this only in regards to the 'Klingon' roles? Or....?

You can interpret my statement in any manner you wish, of course. Apologies if I haven't made myself clear to you. I'll try again, OK?

From what I can remember (and damned if I can remember where I read this) dark-skinned folks in Worf's role would need *less* make-up applied, as a darker skinned actor wouldn't require the full face, neck, and hand make-up; the makeup applied to the prosthetis would be blended into the actor's natural face colour. It's similar to casting calls for short, fat middle-aged women; it would be easier for everyone involved to hire, say, me, rather than a skinny 20-year-old who'd have to be padded up and spend ours in make-up to take on my appearance.

Oh, and I did specifically mention that the casting call was for Worf's part.

Ah, but age and weight is different from 'race.' Since anyone of any race can be fat, skinny, middle-aged...what have you.

And I did recall hearing something like that in one of the Star Trek magazines, in regards to the 'casting' of Klingon's, aside from Worf....and yes, it can be interpreted as 'questionable.'

Of course, different racial backgrounds will have different outlooks on it as we can see in this thread: Whites may not see anything wrong with it, but people of color--namely a black person like myself--may, as aforementioned, ask questions.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

IIRC though, the character was in the 7th season, and DS9 stories in the 7th season didn't have as much depth as the previous seasons...

Broca himself not having much depth isn't where I'm perceiving the problem. He was basically there to make an ass of himself. I just think that had there been diversity in casting of Cardassians from the start, we would've had a context established where there wouldn't be any possibility to perceive something unintended or insulting.

As I mentioned before, one of the great things about the Cardassians is that we have tremendous diversity of personality and motivations in them. They're far from a one-shot race like some of the others we've seen in Trek. Simply opening casting calls up more than I suspect they were before (were they having a problem with the makeup or something?) and letting a variety of actors play Cardassian roles would've taken care of it right there since we had good and bad Cardassians all the way back to S1.

Even if, say, they got a makeup problem figured out late in the game (again, don't know that that was ever an issue, but it's just a random speculation in my part) and realized that they could open up the casting calls to any actor interested in trying out, I think they should've thought about the need to continue giving the same balanced picture they had for the Cardassians in their casting choices for the speaking roles.

I don't mind seeing black, Asian, or Latino actors/actresses behind make-up, but during the 80s (especially in regards to Geordi and Worf) it seemed like we couldn't have an actor of color without 'something' added....

Times are a bit different now, especially in regards to Trek...so I expect a lot from Abrams (and any other producer/writer/director that comes into the picture for future features) ...and the new television series that will surely come in a few years.

I think I'm of the mind that if you have a fully open casting call for both the "makeup" and "non-makeup" roles, and you run both of them the same way, that the problem ought to sort itself out...that is, as long as you don't wind up with a Planet of Hats that doesn't allow for diversity in personality. With the Cardassians you had THAT, but poor diversity in casting.

(Thank God for fanfic...that's something I've definitely been trying to fix, even though it might not always be apparent unless I happen to say who I think should be playing certain characters.)

 

[Joel_Kirk]

IIRC though, the character was in the 7th season, and DS9 stories in the 7th season didn't have as much depth as the previous seasons...

Broca himself not having much depth isn't where I'm perceiving the problem. He was basically there to make an ass of himself. I just think that had there been diversity in casting of Cardassians from the start, we would've had a context established where there wouldn't be any possibility to perceive something unintended or insulting.

As I mentioned before, one of the great things about the Cardassians is that we have tremendous diversity of personality and motivations in them. They're far from a one-shot race like some of the others we've seen in Trek. Simply opening casting calls up more than I suspect they were before (were they having a problem with the makeup or something?) and letting a variety of actors play Cardassian roles would've taken care of it right there since we had good and bad Cardassians all the way back to S1.

Even if, say, they got a makeup problem figured out late in the game (again, don't know that that was ever an issue, but it's just a random speculation in my part) and realized that they could open up the casting calls to any actor interested in trying out, I think they should've thought about the need to continue giving the same balanced picture they had for the Cardassians in their casting choices for the speaking roles.

Interesting observations...

I don't mind seeing black, Asian, or Latino actors/actresses behind make-up, but during the 80s (especially in regards to Geordi and Worf) it seemed like we couldn't have an actor of color without 'something' added....

Times are a bit different now, especially in regards to Trek...so I expect a lot from Abrams (and any other producer/writer/director that comes into the picture for future features) ...and the new television series that will surely come in a few years.

I think I'm of the mind that if you have a fully open casting call for both the "makeup" and "non-makeup" roles, and you run both of them the same way, that the problem ought to sort itself out...that is, as long as you don't wind up with a Planet of Hats that doesn't allow for diversity in personality. With the Cardassians you had THAT, but poor diversity in casting.

(Thank God for fanfic...that's something I've definitely been trying to fix, even though it might not always be apparent unless I happen to say who I think should be playing certain characters.)