Vulcans and lying

[Sharr Khan]

I'm with you on this 3D Master.

What Kegek seems to be saying is at least as I'm understanding it. Vulcan's can't lie or do it so rarely, because they are constrained by a taboo and that having said taboo is proof Vulcan's cannot lie. We might well talk about Klingons and their idea of honor.

In my mind as most cultures prove, merely having a taboo alone does nothing to prevent members of said culture from breaking it. You can't make the assertion and use it as some form of proof "Vulcan's have a high moral aversion to lying, therefore they do not lie." more so since there is ample proof to the contrary that even when not outright lying they bend logic for their own ends despite this myth that Vulcan's do not lie.

Sharr

 

[Kegek]

Sharr Khan said:
What Kegek seems to be saying is at least as I'm understanding it. Vulcan's can't lie or do it so rarely, because they are constrained by a taboo and that having said taboo is proof Vulcan's cannot lie. We might well talk about Klingons and their idea of honor.

Actually, what I'm saying is that Vulcans are constrained by a taboo that makes lying immoral for them. The Klingons are a good comparison, both because they hold honour in such high esteem - and because they can be quite dishonourable. But for a Klingon to be dishonourable is for him to be highly unethical by their morality.

As I said a bit earlier, the argument is now not about whether Vulcans can lie - because they can - but whether or not any significance is attached to this act above and beyond what we may consider normal.

 

[Sharr Khan]

As I said a bit earlier, the argument is now not about whether Vulcans can lie - because they can - but whether or not any significance is attached to this act above and beyond what we may consider normal.

That clarifies things. But we haven't ever seen a Vulcan punished or cast out simply for lying so its hard to say they hold the transgression as being greater then any other. Are there examples I might have missed?

Sharr

 

[Ezri]

Sharr Khan said:

As I said a bit earlier, the argument is now not about whether Vulcans can lie - because they can - but whether or not any significance is attached to this act above and beyond what we may consider normal.

That clarifies things. But we haven't ever seen a Vulcan punished or cast out simply for lying so its hard to say they hold the transgression as being greater then any other. Are there examples I might have missed?

Sharr

Other than to lie under oath or lie to law enforcement I cannot think of any punishment for lying. Why would the Vulcan society place a higher level of punishment then we do? Other then the Vulcan found out to be lying in ENTERPRISE I cannot think of any time a Vulcan would be at the same level as lying under oath or lying to law enforcement.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Ezri said:

Sharr Khan said:

As I said a bit earlier, the argument is now not about whether Vulcans can lie - because they can - but whether or not any significance is attached to this act above and beyond what we may consider normal.

That clarifies things. But we haven't ever seen a Vulcan punished or cast out simply for lying so its hard to say they hold the transgression as being greater then any other. Are there examples I might have missed?

Sharr

Other than to lie under oath or lie to law enforcement I cannot think of any punishment for lying. Why would the Vulcan society place a higher level of punishment then we do? Other then the Vulcan found out to be lying in ENTERPRISE I cannot think of any time a Vulcan would be at the same level as lying under oath or lying to law enforcement.

The punishment need not be "legal" in nature. More likely it would be social/cultural/religious.

This touches the core of my point: If they hold it as a greater moral infraction then we do, even in "everyday life" Vulcans would have cultural ramifications in place that would deter other Vulcans from lying even about the most mundane of things causing those who break this grander moral duty to be ostracized and cut off from the community. We've never seen this. However we know for certain their are social pressures that are levered agianst those who embrace emotions.

Sharr

 

[Ezri]

In the history of the Vulcans, I cannot recall a single character that had a criminal past. Other then Spocks half brother, or the Vulcan on DS9 that was killing fellow Starfleet officers I cannot recall a Vulcan performing a criminal act. With the actions of the Vulcan High Council, with killing unarmed civilians and the bombing of the Earths Embassy on Vulcan that was approved by the state not an act of a lone character. It would be interesting to deal with a Vulcan prison system and how a Vulcan is reformed back into society. That would have been interesting if and only if ENTERPRISE was not cancelled.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Valeris in STVI. T'Paal in TNG's "The Gambit." Sakonna from the Maquis. Spock himself commited several criminal acts in "The Menagerie".

 

[Ezri]

That is true Nerys Myk. And maybe I should have left out the criminal act of the Vulcan on DS9. My point being with Valeris, and other Vulcan starfleet officers they were going to a federation prison not a Vulcan. With Valeris, she was under orders so I would not really call that as an act of a lone ranger.

Sharr Khan was talking about Vulcans and Vulcan punishment. Does Vulcan have a prison?

 

[UnknownSample]

3DM---

You do understand that the first time it was said that "Vulcan's don't lie" on TOS was a question by a Romulan commander to Spock, who promptly lied through his teeth when he answered 'yes' because the entire deal was one big lie, cloak and dagger spiel to steal a cloaking device, right?

I thought this for years too, then I got a copy of Menagerie, and McCoy on Starbase 11 actually voices the idea to Kirk, for the first time onscreen.

Anyway, again, it's not possible for it to be impossible for Vulcans to lie. Choosing not to is a very different thing than being "incapable" of it... though they may be using the word more loosely, as we do when we say a person is "incapable" of murder.

Someone here has been saying Vulcans don't lie (or do so rarely) because it's against their morals. The only interesting or meaningful reason would be that it's an outgrowth of their system of logic. Their morality probably is too, though...

 

[Nerys Myk]

Ezri said:
That is true Nerys Myk. And maybe I should have left out the criminal act of the Vulcan on DS9. My point being with Valeris, and other Vulcan starfleet officers they were going to a federation prison not a Vulcan. With Valeris, she was under orders so I would not really call that as an act of a lone ranger.

Sharr Khan was talking about Vulcans and Vulcan punishment. Does Vulcan have a prison?

Do Terrans? Or Andorians? The UFP penal system is the only one I can recall seeing. Do the various member worlds claim local juristriction for crimes commited by their citizen or those in their territories? Was T'Paal turned over to the Vulcans for punishment or did the UFP handle it?

 

[3D Master]

UnknownSample said:
I thought this for years too, then I got a copy of Menagerie, and McCoy on Starbase 11 actually voices the idea to Kirk, for the first time onscreen.

Fine, it's the second time. Doesn't matter, on Starbase 11 Spock is engaged in subterfuge and thus a form of lying as well.

Anyway, again, it's not possible for it to be impossible for Vulcans to lie. Choosing not to is a very different thing than being "incapable" of it... though they may be using the word more loosely, as we do when we say a person is "incapable" of murder.

Someone here has been saying Vulcans don't lie (or do so rarely) because it's against their morals. The only interesting or meaningful reason would be that it's an outgrowth of their system of logic. Their morality probably is too, though...

And it simply isn't a big deal to them. I've said this again and again but people seem to forget it; if lying is such big a deal, then Vulcans won't be amused when another Vulcan lies, and even less so when that Vulcan compounds that lie by lying about what it is. They'd be shocked and horrified (however much a Vulcan ever can be that, or rather show that) and go in a Vulcan cool matter, "You evil bastard! You lied!"

Spock also didn't bat an eye lid when his father lied about where he was and what he was doing in Journey to Babel. It simply isn't that big a deal. Hell, in some ways it almost seems like we frown more on lying than Vulcans do.

 

[Plum]

Starship Polaris said:

Plum said:

North Pole-aris said:
T'Pring was dishonest. T'Pau was dishonest. One can quibble about whether they "lied," but if one can deceive or mislead then one can lie.

Strictly within the context of "Amok Time", I disagree. All of these characters were playing parts in a ritual that wrote their actions. No one had any lies to tell or omit that I can divine.

Nope, there's no way that T'Pau's omission of the lethal nature of the combat can be anything other than authorial fiat (if T'Pau fesses up beforehand, the revelation a moment later is less dramatic) or deliberate omission on her part.

If T'Pau is able to exercise discretion to the extent of saying to Kirk "you are not bound by our laws" then there's no way she doesn't have the choice to tell or not tell him "this combat is to the death" before he accepts the challenge rather than after. She tricks him. We can argue about why (including the possibility of just bad writing, though I don't think so) but she plainly does.

Yep, indeedy, I get your point. Though I suspect still that T'Pau was following the ritual, not imposing her will somehow. And without any care if Kirk knew the rules or not. But I can certainly see your point. Her attitude is hard to pin down - she could have assumed Kirk knew the rules (as opposed to she didn't care, as I imagine), or she was being cruel, or purposely tricking him.

I suppose one could take it either way.

 

[Nerys Myk]

She did throw a curve ball by having Spock fight Kirk rather than Stonn. Even Stonn was caught unawares by that one.

 

[Elder Knight]

"All Vulcans are liars," says the Vulcan.

Do you believe him?

 

[3D Master]

Elder Knight said:
"All Vulcans are liars," says the Vulcan.

Do you believe him?

Yes.

 

[matthunter]

Ezri said:
That is true Nerys Myk. And maybe I should have left out the criminal act of the Vulcan on DS9. My point being with Valeris, and other Vulcan starfleet officers they were going to a federation prison not a Vulcan. With Valeris, she was under orders so I would not really call that as an act of a lone ranger.

Sharr Khan was talking about Vulcans and Vulcan punishment. Does Vulcan have a prison?

Since they have their own Security service (from Gambit), it's pretty likely. That episode also alluded not just to the Vulcan criminal we saw, but a whole terrorist organisation (the Vulcan Isolationist Movement).

 

[Timo]

The only interesting or meaningful reason would be that it's an outgrowth of their system of logic.

How would their philosophy of logic deal with lies?

For one thing, if they thought it through, they'd have to acknowledge that every statement is untrue by definition - through ignorance, omission for brevity, or slip of tongue if not through malice. Would a Vulcan consider every untruth a lie, then? Or would their culture actually dictate a very careful and narrow definition of lie, far narrower than ours?

If the latter, it's not that difficult to accept that somebody like McCoy, or even Data, would misunderstand the profound Vulcan statement "We do not speak untruth with malice, mainly because we abhor malice, although of course obfuscation for a good cause is not malice by our thinking, and untruth as such cannot be considered negative, doh" as "We don't lie".

And Spock certainly isn't in the habit of correcting such profound misunderstandings. He's got his hands full with McCoy's more superficial human inaccuracies already...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Plum]

Nerys Myk said:
She did throw a curve ball by having Spock fight Kirk rather than Stonn. Even Stonn was caught unawares by that one.

Well, erm, I was talking about T'Pau.

It was T'Pring who threw the "whaaa???" moment in by suddenly choosing Kirk. I say, she was playing the chess board and moving the pieces and it was all her right to do so. T'Pau was just 'officiating'. Right? I reckon. I know I'm prolly digging a hole for myself here.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So you were!!!!!

 

[moonraver]

Vulcans lie like a rug. This is just more of their green-blooded horseshit, like the "we don't have emotions" routine.

true.
t'pol lies all the time.