Vulcans and lying

[Kegek]

It's not that Vulcans can't lie. They have a reputation for not lying. And with their ethics they're kind of not supposed to.

But boy, if you believe them, the Vulcans can play you for a sucker. Just look at that poor Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident."

 

[A beaker full of death]

Kegek Kringle said:
But boy, if you believe them, the Vulcans can play you for a sucker. Just look at that poor Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident."

It may just be the way Nimoy played it, but I always felt Spock was a bit embarrassed by his conduct there - as if he regretted the necessity of the lie.

 

[Plum]

A beaker full of death said:

Plum said:
In TOS Vulcan's were solidly committed to their spiritual views, including not telling a lie.

How do you figure? I'd call T'Pring's fucking around pretty fucking deceitful.

Hmm, well, I don't really get that. She was manipulating a set destiny, her marriage. Which she didn't want. She didn't lie to anyone, no one asked her if she wanted to marry Spock. Just thinking.

 

[A beaker full of death]

She behaved dishonorably. Disgracefully. She carried on like a little ho and shirked her duty to satisfy her lust. Hence Spock's comment to Stonn (or whatever his name was) at the end.
It was clear the Kalifi challenge was ceremonial, much like "let him speak now..." Her behavior was scandalous to the Vulcans.

 

[Plum]

Ah... actually Spock commended her on the entire affair. He suggested it might not be worth it, though not to T'Pring, but to Ston.

The whole thing was ceremony, of course. A fixed destiny for both, Spock wasn't asked if he wanted to marry T'Pring either, don't forget. Considering, I'm fairly sure Spock wanted to marry Kirk.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

T'Pring was dishonest. T'Pau was dishonest. One can quibble about whether they "lied," but if one can deceive or mislead then one can lie.

 

[Kegek]

A beaker full of death said:
It may just be the way Nimoy played it, but I always felt Spock was a bit embarrassed by his conduct there - as if he regretted the necessity of the lie.

Definitely. It goes against their ethics. In this respect, the Vulcans are a bit like the Klingons - only their chief virtue is honour. Doesn't stop great numbers of them from behaving very dishonourably, though.

 

[ancient]

They'll only lie if it seems logical to them. But they aren't computers with nand and nor gates. They can lie. They just don't do it compulsively for no reason.

Spock essentially ordered Scotty to lie in TUC.

"Mr. Scott, I understand you are having trouble with the warp drive. How long do you require for repair?"

"there's nothin' wrong with the bloody thing--"

"Mr. Scott, if we return to spacedock now...we will never see the Captain or Dr. McCoy again."

"...Could take weeks sir."

"Thank you Mr. Scott. Valeris, please inform Starfleet that our warp drive is inoperable."

"A lie?"

"An error."

Suuuuure Spock, an 'error' *wink wink*, you lying bastard! See, he was playing that game so they wouldn't all end up in chains when they returned to Earth. He didn't make the 'error' excuse to sooth his own guilt, only to make sure his nose was 'clean' if he got dragged into a military court to explain his actions.

See, Vulcans are like Lawyers. They can get out of being called liars on technicalities. Like Bill Clinton and his 'misleading' comments. Gotta love it.

 

[Sharr Khan]

North Pole-aris said:
T'Pring was dishonest. T'Pau was dishonest. One can quibble about whether they "lied," but if one can deceive or mislead then one can lie.

Indeed. Why do I feel like I'm the only one who was in on the fact the whole: "Vulcan's are unable to lie" was being played as a joke or sometimes as ironic whenever it was brought up?

Definitely. It goes against their ethics. In this respect, the Vulcans are a bit like the Klingons - only their chief virtue is honour. Doesn't stop great numbers of them from behaving very dishonourably, though.

Well it goes agianst their ethics, except when it serves them to lie or its more logical to tell or take part in a lie. You know, like almost any other sapient being...

"Logic" is a veneer, a cultural band-aid for the Vulcans it is not innate to them as a people. I would say it also carries with it certain flaws that could and may have lead the culture to become insular and myopic.

Sharr

 

[Kegek]

Sharr Khan said:
Well it goes agianst their ethics, except when it serves them to lie or its more logical to tell or take part in a lie. You know, like almost any other sapient being...

I don't know, Vulcans seemed postively Zoroastrian about it at times. Sure, like the rest of us, they lie when it's convenient. But they clearly frown on it as a serious ethical trangession, which was my point.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Plum said:
Ah... actually Spock commended her on the entire affair.

Her tactics, not her ethics.

 

[GreenBlood]

Kaijufan said:
Well Spock is only half Vulcan.

From this discussion, which I've enjoyed reading, this is how I see it:
Half-blooded Vulcans tell half truths,
Full-blooded humans tell lies,
And full-blooded Vulcans, lie very well, indeed, when the appropriate occasion arises.

 

[Sharr Khan]

I don't know, Vulcans seemed postively Zoroastrian about it at times. Sure, like the rest of us, they lie when it's convenient. But they clearly frown on it as a serious ethical trangession, which was my point.

Well every known culture on Earth also frowns on it for what that's worth. Simply frowning on something tells us very little about them and is rather easy for them on their part.

From all the canon, I can't but get the impression this has been played like a wink wink for the audience (He says Vulcan's 'dont lie' but we are supposes to know better) and in-universe is a bit of a myth the Vulcans perpetuate about themselves for their own benefit.

The only Vulcan we've seen who can't ever recall being in engaged in some kind of twisting of the truth is Sarek... so far.

Sharr

 

[Kegek]

Sharr Khan said:
Well every known culture on Earth also frowns on it for what that's worth.

There's frowning on it and considering it a major violation of ethics. Vulcans seem to be in the latter category.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Kegek Kringle said:

Sharr Khan said:
Well every known culture on Earth also frowns on it for what that's worth.

There's frowning on it and considering it a major violation of ethics. Vulcans seem to be in the latter category.

That seems a distinction without a difference.

Generally lying is (rightfully so) dissuaded and seen as wrong. It why people are sworn in in court - The Romans used to toss people off cliffs for lying in court...

Just because we now fine people for lying in court it doesn't mean we as a species see such an act as any less egregious. A culture can look down on such behavior well at the same time doing that behavior at any given chance and even rational why its okay in "this instance" to allow it.

Complex beings are like that.

Sharr

 

[Kegek]

Sharr Khan said:
That seems a distinction without a difference.

Generally lying is (rightfully so) dissuaded and seen as wrong. It why people are sworn in in court - The Romans used to toss people off cliffs for lying in court...

In the Hittite Empire, murder was payable by a fine. I think it is safe to assume the Hittites considered murder wrong; but perhaps less wrong than many modern societies.

 

[M'Sharak]

Sharr Khan said:

The only Vulcan we've seen who can't ever recall being in engaged in some kind of twisting of the truth is Sarek... so far.

I'm not even sure you can say that. On his first appearance, Sarek was playing his hand very close to the vest. He may not have been telling outright falsehoods, but he was extremely careful about what parts of the truth he would volunteer (and when) and what parts he would omit or hold back.

Much later, he was also very reticent about his Bendii Syndrome, though that was at least partially attributable to the attached social stigma among Vulcans.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Actually the same often took place among the Norse and Germanic peoples. But it was an age with more chthonic religions and view of nature and individual rights. But even these tribal cultures were aware that rampant dishonest behavior would lead to chaos so laws were created to deal with them.

To stick on topic, more often then not Vulcans have been shown to behave in ways that often stretch "logic" for their benefit or that of their friends. They are more then able to lie and in my view use logic to rationalize why they're doing it and making sure to push the myth they are unable to do so. What better shield is there then enforcing the notion a whole culture in inherently honest?

Like I said up thread: Part of this "Vulcan's don't lie" is an in joke as well for the viewers benefit. We're supposed to realize its not true and Spock is simply maintaining a facade of not lying well doing just that.

Sharr

 

[Noname Given]

FordSVT said:

Kaijufan said:

Navaros said:
Vulcans lie. Spock lied to the Female Romulan Commander and created a big scandal when she discovered he can lie even though he's a Vulcan.

Then Spock further lied by saying that Vulcans can't lie in other episodes, and in Star Trek IV. Seems perhaps good ol' Spock was a compulsive liar even.

Well Spock is only half Vulcan.

Exactly, which is why I always laugh when people try to hold him up as a shining example of the average Vulcan. Same as when people try to hold Worf up as the average Klingon. BOTH characters were overcompensating for something they felt they lacked.

Want to see a full Vulcan lying? Watch Sarek in TOS - Journey to Babel.

When Kirk asks where he was duuring Ambassador's gav's murder; he replies "In quiet meditation..."; it's only AFTER he has a heart attack in front of them all that he actually admits that he had a similar attack on the observation deck; and at the time of Gav's murder was "quite incapacitated."

Also, Sarek's wife Amanda had no idea about his condition at all - he had concealed it cmpletely fromher; and while that may not be a 'lie' per se; he was definitely not being honest with her.

 

[Ethros]

I like how some ultra geeky Trek fans thought Vulcans were literally physically incapable of lying, what like there were all gonna be acting like Jim Carrey in Liar, Liar?
Sarek- "I CAN'T... LIE!!!"