Vulcans and lying

[Plum]

North Pole-aris said:
T'Pring was dishonest. T'Pau was dishonest. One can quibble about whether they "lied," but if one can deceive or mislead then one can lie.

Strictly within the context of "Amok Time", I disagree. All of these characters were playing parts in a ritual that wrote their actions. No one had any lies to tell or omit that I can divine.

This is ancient ritual, there aren't any ethics involved. The players must play their roles or be punished, even killed outright.

 

[Noname Given]

Plum said:

North Pole-aris said:
T'Pring was dishonest. T'Pau was dishonest. One can quibble about whether they "lied," but if one can deceive or mislead then one can lie.

Strictly within the context of "Amok Time", I disagree. All of these characters were playing parts in a ritual that wrote their actions. No one had any lies to tell or omit that I can divine.

This is ancient ritual, there aren't any ethics involved. The players must play their roles or be punished, even killed outright.

I agree completely as to what happened in the ritual; but T'Pring again shows that she MORE than willing to be dishonest/deceptive when she tells Spock:

Tpring: "...And if you did not free me, it would be the same, for I would have your name and your property; and Stonn would still be there."

So, again, I don't see how anyone in Star Trek fandom thought that ALL Vulcans to a 'T' were absolutely 100% honest and forthright ALL the time.

If anything it just shows how much the later Star Trek incarnations - Star Trek II:TWoK espescially (and it's still my favorite TOS film BTW); got Vulcans wrong by remembering that Spock said to the line, "It is no myth.", to the Romulan Commander, when she asked if Vlcans can lie, but IGNORE the context the line was said in; AND the fact that (later in the episode), it's clearly shown that Spock was in fact LYING when he said it. (Hell, even DC Fontana seems to have forgotten it too, when she wrote Yesteryear for TAS).

 

[xortex]

It would be cool if the Vulcans were mythological like elves with hyperactive thyroids and are literally incapable of lying. That would change thier dynamic drastically and make them much different than us as opposed to the Klingons who are more like dislocated, forsaken Humans with a more metaphysical spin.

 

[xortex]

Since this new movie is spock centric, it would be nice if the chess master was a little different.

 

[Plum]

Noel Given said:

Plum said:

North Pole-aris said:
T'Pring was dishonest. T'Pau was dishonest. One can quibble about whether they "lied," but if one can deceive or mislead then one can lie.

Strictly within the context of "Amok Time", I disagree. All of these characters were playing parts in a ritual that wrote their actions. No one had any lies to tell or omit that I can divine.

This is ancient ritual, there aren't any ethics involved. The players must play their roles or be punished, even killed outright.

I agree completely as to what happened in the ritual; but T'Pring again shows that she MORE than willing to be dishonest/deceptive when she tells Spock:

Tpring: "...And if you did not free me, it would be the same, for I would have your name and your property; and Stonn would still be there."

Where is the lie here? She's lying to Spock? No, she's following the rules of the game. That's it.

Everyone seems to feel T'Pring was lying to Spock because she wanted Ston, or something. At least, everyone seems to think she was a lying slut. A common reaction to smart women. But how the players felt was not a factor at all. So there could not be deception.

If I get what people are driving at.

 

[IDIC]

I think that if it is logical to lie in a given situation they are more than capable of doing so. Vulcans do have emotions. They just use logic to control and supress those emotions. The fact that they have emotions seems likely they can lie.

 

[UnknownSample]

Ethros said:
I like how some ultra geeky Trek fans thought Vulcans were literally physically incapable of lying, what like there were all gonna be acting like Jim Carrey in Liar, Liar?
Sarek- "I CAN'T... LIE!!!"

That was my point too, but when lines about Vulcans being "incapable" of lying keep popping up, I think it's understandable for a few fans to take the word seriously.

 

[Kegek]

T'Pau may not lie, but she's sure as hell selective in how she gives out information. It's only after Kirk agrees to fight Spock that she tells him it is a fight to the death.

Indeed, 'Amok Time' is a good example of how Vulcans can avoid lying while still being completely manipulative jerks. Logic is cold and amoral; and if it wasn't for Star Trek's desire to portray the Vulcans as basically the good guys (if a bit stuck up), they could have been very intimidating villains.

 

[Plum]

Good way to put it, the Vulcans were intimidating.

I noticed T'Pau rather off-handedly tell Kirk it's "to ze deth". Like I said, everyone is playing there ritualistic roles. T'Pau could care less if Kirk was ignorant of these things.

 

[A beaker full of death]

No she couldn't.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Plum said:
Where is the lie here? She's lying to Spock? No, she's following the rules of the game. That's it.

Everyone seems to feel T'Pring was lying to Spock because she wanted Ston, or something. At least, everyone seems to think she was a lying slut. A common reaction to smart women. But how the players felt was not a factor at all. So there could not be deception.

Are you kidding me? While Spock was offworld his intended was fucking around! If you have no problem with that then I feel sorry for your significant other, assuming you have one.

 

[Plum]

She did nothing outside the ritual or hid anything, Ston was there, after all. There seems no reason to believe her actions (or Spock's btw) before this marriage constitutes any sort of impropriety or deceit.

As far as I can tell, people are imposing a sort of commitment and relationship between Spock and T'Pring that didn't exist outside the marriage ritual. Spock had relationships, girlfriends, after all.

 

[FordSVT]

Sharr Khan said:

Kegek Kringle said:

Sharr Khan said:
Well every known culture on Earth also frowns on it for what that's worth.

There's frowning on it and considering it a major violation of ethics. Vulcans seem to be in the latter category.

That seems a distinction without a difference.

Generally lying is (rightfully so) dissuaded and seen as wrong. It why people are sworn in in court - The Romans used to toss people off cliffs for lying in court...

Just because we now fine people for lying in court it doesn't mean we as a species see such an act as any less egregious. A culture can look down on such behavior well at the same time doing that behavior at any given chance and even rational why its okay in "this instance" to allow it.

Complex beings are like that.

Sharr

But think of all the little white lies, exaggerations, half-truths, omissions, etc. the average person carries out in a week. 95% of it is harmless, but I'd wager it's these types of "lies" that Vulcans by and large do not bother to carry out. If your friend asked your opinion on what they were wearing, the average person might be inclined to say "Great" when they really look bad, whereas you might not like the answer a Vulcan gives you.

But if there is a logical, non-emotional reason to lie, or if they're ordered to lie by a superior, or if the lie is part of a sacrifice for the good of the whole, they will lie.

Even then I'm sure there's plenty of lying going on on Vulcan, no race is perfect, no Vulcan can be perfect 100% of the time in his or her practices. They logical and can inhibit their emotions, but they're very aware of them. They aren't unfeeling robots.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Would a Vulcan lie to not cause unto pain to an emotional being? I find it hard given what I've see of them that they always tell the unvarnished truth - since their on screen behavior shows me they rather routinely fudge things.

And as someone pointed out: Sarek committed a lie of omission regarding his health to even his wife...

I'm sorry the evidence seems to indicate strongly that "Vulcan's don't lie" is nothing more then a myth they help foster for whatever reasons which I'm sure makes perfect sense to them. Splitting hairs - is being deceptive.

They logical and can inhibit their emotions, but they're very aware of them. They aren't unfeeling robots.

No they aren't robots at all (part of my point) and there has never been shown a biological compulsion for logic or honor in them - they are more like us, brought to the tenth power then they would care to admit.

Trust me whenever Spock or another Vulcan claims he cannot lie - that's a falsehood which we as the audience are supposed to catch onto as he weasels around bending the "truth" for his needs at the moment.

The philosophy of logic is elastic at best.

Sharr

 

[Kegek]

Sharr Khan said:
Would a Vulcan lie to not cause unto pain to an emotional being?

No. That implies a tact they do not posess. If anything, Vulcans are notoriously blunt.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Kegek Kringle said:

Sharr Khan said:
Would a Vulcan lie to not cause undo pain to an emotional being?

No. That implies a tact they do not posess. If anything, Vulcans are notoriously blunt.

Hmm...
Where is the logic in causing pain or hurt where it will amount to nothing in the grander scheme of things when simply not saying anything at all or softening the blow would still serve the purpose?

Sometimes I think fans project their own idealism onto Vulcans more so then any other Trek species.

Sharr

 

[Timo]

But have we ever seen a Vulcan "soften the blow" for anybody?

Logic as such is a meaningless concept when applied to something as complex as social interactions. There are always millions of possible courses of action even in the simplest possible interaction, and the effect of the action can be defined in millions of different ways, depending on the scope and aims chosen.

Even in presumably rigorous undertakings such as physics problems, logic usually lies in the eye of the beholder. Our supposedly "objective" thought constructs are invariably built on ad hoc assumptions that only a human of certain cultural upbringing would make; an individual from a different environment could see matters completely differently. Even mathematics need not be a "universal language" - not everybody need agree that 1+1=2, as the very concept of integers remains subjective to human thinking (at least until we get a sample of some other sort of thinking).

To argue what Vulcans should consider logical and what illogical is, well, not the epitome of logic. But we should be able to trust the writers on this - because whatever they come up with is by the rules of the Trek universe the absolute truth on the matter...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ancient]

"Does this dress make my butt look big?"


HUMAN ANS: "I love you."


VULCAN ANS: "No. Your butt always looks big."

 

[captcalhoun]

Sir Mixalot ans: IIIIIIIIIIIIIII like big butts and cannot lie!

 

[Chris3123]

Spock can't lie. Not only is he Vulcan, but he's also in Starfleet.