Vulcans and lying

[A beaker full of death]

Shut up, Wesley.

 

[USS Mariner]

Read Don DeBrandt's essay in Boarding The Enterprise. You'll all see Vulcans in a very different light, at least something more thought out than "Vulcans have been written wrong!" or "Vulcans are evil liars!"

 

[Plum]

Link?

 

[Alyssa]

The Vulcans entire culture is based on lying. They suppress their emotions but they do feel them on some level they just lie about how they are feeling at any moment not only to others but also to them selves.

 

[M'Sharak]

Plum said:
Link?

I'm pretty sure he's talking about a book chapter.

http://www.treknation.com/reviews/books/boarding_the_enterprise.shtml

 

[3D Master]

xortex said:
After thinking about it, I think what spock meant in the 'Courtmarshel' was that Vulcans were incapable of fooling the computers by lying, whether that is true or not. But I'd like to see Vulcans actually be literally incapable of lying. I think that would be more interesting but which was negated in 'Enterprise' and not just have a reputation for truthfulness. I'd like to see a poll.

You do understand that the first time it was said that "Vulcan's don't lie" on TOS was a question by a Romulan commander to Spock, who promptly lied through his teeth when he answered 'yes' because the entire deal was one big lie, cloak and dagger spiel to steal a cloaking device, right?

I continue to be befuddled by this entire concept by fans that Vulcans aren't supposed to be lying, when the first time the adage was mentioned is during a time Vulcan is lying through his teeth every step of the way.

Plum said:
The thing is, if I recall, is that Spock was the exception to the "Vulcan's don't lie" thing. He liked to say he was exaggerating, etc. But these are excuses.

In TOS Vulcan's were solidly committed to their spiritual views, including not telling a lie. It's later Treks, throwing Vulcans into all sorts of roles (like Tuvok's spying) that destroy any of Spock's claims. However, I was intrigued at the post suggesting Spock was "over compensating" culturally, romanticizing his culture you might say, rather like Worf seem too.

Vulcan's serving in Star Fleet might, I suggest, be in conflict with their cultural norm.

That's bullshit. Vulcans are logical, they do not react to emotions, if logic dictates they should lie, or violate some type of "spiritual" belief, they will do so, without a moment's hesitation or remorse. Like Spock explained to Kirk about his father; "Sarek is a logical being, if logic tells him he should kill, he can and will."

Further, again, the moment we've seen the "Vulcan's don't lie" come up, Spock casually lies through his teeth, and Spock indeed, is in many ways more Vulcan than Vulcan.

To say that Spock is the exception, is also ridiculous. We've never seen any other Vulcan during TOS in a position where they logic dictated they should lie. That's because there are hardly any other Vulcans we get to see. Spock, then, is the one that DEFINED Vulcans, you can't make the guy that DEFINED Vulcans be an exception to Vulcans, because then we know absolutely nothing of Vulcans beyond "They're logical" and the few tiny glimpses that other Vulcans gave us.

In fact, indeed, if Spock is the exception, than all those later Vulcans and especially Tuvok, are the ones we have to use as how Vulcans are, and we can toss Spock out the window.

A beaker full of death said:

Kegek Kringle said:
But boy, if you believe them, the Vulcans can play you for a sucker. Just look at that poor Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident."

It may just be the way Nimoy played it, but I always felt Spock was a bit embarrassed by his conduct there - as if he regretted the necessity of the lie.

Ah, so regret for having to lie, equals not lying? Interesting course of logic, I wonder what a Vulcan would make of that.

Kegek said:

Sharr Khan said:
Well it goes agianst their ethics, except when it serves them to lie or its more logical to tell or take part in a lie. You know, like almost any other sapient being...

I don't know, Vulcans seemed postively Zoroastrian about it at times. Sure, like the rest of us, they lie when it's convenient. But they clearly frown on it as a serious ethical trangession, which was my point.

So do we, doesn't stop us from lying, or even using logic - logic! - and other reasons to tell us that lying is sometimes necessary or even desireable. Just because a certain subset of ethics tells us one thing, doesn't mean that another subset tells us the other, and it doesn't stop us from doing it.

A beaker full of death said:

Plum said:
Where is the lie here? She's lying to Spock? No, she's following the rules of the game. That's it.

Everyone seems to feel T'Pring was lying to Spock because she wanted Ston, or something. At least, everyone seems to think she was a lying slut. A common reaction to smart women. But how the players felt was not a factor at all. So there could not be deception.

Are you kidding me? While Spock was offworld his intended was fucking around! If you have no problem with that then I feel sorry for your significant other, assuming you have one.

Yeah, sorry, but self-determination is a little higher on the scale of ethics to me than following some agreement who to bed made by some parents. And no, that means T'Pring does not do anything to her "significant other" at all, STONN is her "significant other". Spock is just the guy her parents were trying to force her to be with. Thus Plum's significant other has nothing you should feel sorry for.

 

[A beaker full of death]

^ Wow. You know, I'm really starting to think you have to have an orthodox Jewish background to get the Vulcans.

 

[Kegek]

3D Master said:
So do we, doesn't stop us from lying, or even using logic - logic! - and other reasons to tell us that lying is sometimes necessary or even desireable. Just because a certain subset of ethics tells us one thing, doesn't mean that another subset tells us the other, and it doesn't stop us from doing it.

And what I'm saying is that, culturally, the ethical imperative not to lie is stronger in Vulcans than in most humans. We both agree it's bad, but Vulcans rate it somewhat higher on the scale of unacceptable behaviour.

 

[M'Sharak]

3D Master said:

A beaker full of death said:

Kegek Kringle said:
But boy, if you believe them, the Vulcans can play you for a sucker. Just look at that poor Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident."

It may just be the way Nimoy played it, but I always felt Spock was a bit embarrassed by his conduct there - as if he regretted the necessity of the lie.

Ah, so regret for having to lie, equals not lying? Interesting course of logic, I wonder what a Vulcan would make of that.

I'd imagine a Vulcan would suggest you back up and read it again, because that isn't what beaker said, is it?

 

[3D Master]

Kegek said:

3D Master said:
So do we, doesn't stop us from lying, or even using logic - logic! - and other reasons to tell us that lying is sometimes necessary or even desireable. Just because a certain subset of ethics tells us one thing, doesn't mean that another subset tells us the other, and it doesn't stop us from doing it.

And what I'm saying is that, culturally, the ethical imperative not to lie is stronger in Vulcans than in most humans. We both agree it's bad, but Vulcans rate it somewhat higher on the scale of unacceptable behaviour.

Then how come they lie every time they bring up the adage "Us Vulcans don't lie"? This from the very first time the adage comes up. To me, it doesn't even seem the ethical imperative is any bigger in Vulcans than in us, but even if it is, it still never stopped them from lying. So the whole bullshit concept of Vulcans physically unable to lie can be tossed out the window.

 

[3D Master]

M´Sharak said:

3D Master said:

A beaker full of death said:

Kegek Kringle said:
But boy, if you believe them, the Vulcans can play you for a sucker. Just look at that poor Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident."

It may just be the way Nimoy played it, but I always felt Spock was a bit embarrassed by his conduct there - as if he regretted the necessity of the lie.

Ah, so regret for having to lie, equals not lying? Interesting course of logic, I wonder what a Vulcan would make of that.

I'd imagine a Vulcan would suggest you back up and read it again, because that isn't what beaker said, is it?

He may not have written it, but he implied it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Plum said:

North Pole-aris said:
T'Pring was dishonest. T'Pau was dishonest. One can quibble about whether they "lied," but if one can deceive or mislead then one can lie.

Strictly within the context of "Amok Time", I disagree. All of these characters were playing parts in a ritual that wrote their actions. No one had any lies to tell or omit that I can divine.

Nope, there's no way that T'Pau's omission of the lethal nature of the combat can be anything other than authorial fiat (if T'Pau fesses up beforehand, the revelation a moment later is less dramatic) or deliberate omission on her part.

If T'Pau is able to exercise discretion to the extent of saying to Kirk "you are not bound by our laws" then there's no way she doesn't have the choice to tell or not tell him "this combat is to the death" before he accepts the challenge rather than after. She tricks him. We can argue about why (including the possibility of just bad writing, though I don't think so) but she plainly does.

 

[Kegek]

3D Master said:
Then how come they lie every time they bring up the adage "Us Vulcans don't lie"? This from the very first time the adage comes up.

I'm fairly sure the specific claim that Vulcans do not lie first occured in "The Enterprise Incident", and was spoken by a Romulan.

A Vulcan that does not lie is like, say, the Amish who do not kill: Physically, they may be capable of it, but they are morally opposed to taking that action. But perhaps some Amish have killed. But this does not negate the high moral value they place on not killing, as they refuse to kill even in self-defense - which we would find an applicable cause.

If you want a semantic definition; it is a cardinal sin against the Vulcan ethic to lie.

So the whole bullshit concept of Vulcans physically unable to lie can be tossed out the window.

I never claimed they are physically unable to lie.

 

[A beaker full of death]

3D Master said:

M´Sharak said:

3D Master said:

A beaker full of death said:

Kegek Kringle said:
But boy, if you believe them, the Vulcans can play you for a sucker. Just look at that poor Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident."

It may just be the way Nimoy played it, but I always felt Spock was a bit embarrassed by his conduct there - as if he regretted the necessity of the lie.

Ah, so regret for having to lie, equals not lying? Interesting course of logic, I wonder what a Vulcan would make of that.

I'd imagine a Vulcan would suggest you back up and read it again, because that isn't what beaker said, is it?

He may not have written it, but he implied it.

No, I didn't. I was making an observtion about Nimoy's performance, and what it might tell us about how Vulcans feel about lying. That is all. The rest is your spin.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Starship Polaris said:

Nope, there's no way that T'Pau's omission of the lethal nature of the combat can be anything other than authorial fiat (if T'Pau fesses up beforehand, the revelation a moment later is less dramatic) or deliberate omission on her part.

If T'Pau is able to exercise discretion to the extent of saying to Kirk "you are not bound by our laws" then there's no way she doesn't have the choice to tell or not tell him "this combat is to the death" before he accepts the challenge rather than after. She tricks him. We can argue about why (including the possibility of just bad writing, though I don't think so) but she plainly does.

While I agree from a moral perspective, I think Lovsky played it as though it wasn't something T'Pau deliberately hid, but rather she couldn't be bothered explaining it to a human. She treated the revalation off-handedly, like a minor detail not worth mentioning. It was more "you wanna play our game? ok. Fine."

 

[3D Master]

Kegek said:

3D Master said:
Then how come they lie every time they bring up the adage "Us Vulcans don't lie"? This from the very first time the adage comes up.

I'm fairly sure the specific claim that Vulcans do not lie first occured in "The Enterprise Incident", and was spoken by a Romulan.

A Vulcan that does not lie is like, say, the Amish who do not kill: Physically, they may be capable of it, but they are morally opposed to taking that action. But perhaps some Amish have killed. But this does not negate the high moral value they place on not killing, as they refuse to kill even in self-defense - which we would find an applicable cause.

If you want a semantic definition; it is a cardinal sin against the Vulcan ethic to lie.

Except that Spock is lying through his teeth, right then as well, every single friggin' moment he's with her. Meaning "they refuse to lie/kill even in self-defense (and thus kills them)" as you say, is BULLSHIT!

Jesus H Christ. This is what I mean. How anyone can come to the idea that Vulcans would never lie even if it kills them from that episode is beyond me. It's a willful act of blindness that is staggering. It's the first time it comes up, and the Vulcan is lying through his teeth the whole time!

So the whole bullshit concept of Vulcans physically unable to lie can be tossed out the window.

I never claimed they are physically unable to lie.

No, but somebody else did, and you're pretty much on that side of the argument.

A beaker full of death said:
No, I didn't. I was making an observtion about Nimoy's performance, and what it might tell us about how Vulcans feel about lying. That is all. The rest is your spin.

In the middle of an argument that's all about how capable Vulcan's are of lying and how much they abhor it. It is, therefor, very much an implication.

 

[A beaker full of death]

3D Master said:

A beaker full of death said:
No, I didn't. I was making an observtion about Nimoy's performance, and what it might tell us about how Vulcans feel about lying. That is all. The rest is your spin.

In the middle of an argument that's all about how capable Vulcan's are of lying and how much they abhor it. It is, therefor, very much an implication.

The conclusion about regretting a lie being equivalent to not lying was your own. It is not what I said, meant or implied.

 

[Mysterion]

Temis the Vorta said:
Vulcans lie like a rug. This is just more of their green-blooded horseshit, like the "we don't have emotions" routine.

and they've proably got some sort of logical BS rationale to justify it, too.

 

[Kegek]

3D Master said:
Except that Spock is lying through his teeth, right then as well, every single friggin' moment he's with her. Meaning "they refuse to lie/kill even in self-defense (and thus kills them)" as you say, is BULLSHIT!

Hmm. I should perhaps clarify here. I was drawing an analogy between the Vulcan ethic against lying and the Amish ethic against killing even in self-defense. Whether Vulcans accept - in theory - that lying is acceptable is self-defense in uncertain; Spock certainly employed it in practice (much to Saavik's amused chagrin in The Wrath of Khan).

The Romulan Commander certainly seemed to believe they did not concede lying even in self-defense, but her knowledge of Vulcan seemed somewhat dubious at best.

No, but somebody else did, and you're pretty much on that side of the argument.

This argument is hardly divided between those who believe Vulcans are physically incapable of lying and those who don't. In fact, those who actually argued they are physically incapable of lying are rather few and have not posted in this thread lately. As you, I, and others have observed, the basic fact we have witnessed all the major Vulcans on Star Trek lie at one time or another (by which I mean Spock, Sarek, Tuvok and T'Pol) makes this position untenable.

It seems to currently revolve around the importance Vulcans attach to lying. Beaker, for example, has observed that Spock lied with regret, which suggests, as I do, that Vulcans take lying very seriously - as sin against their sense of ethics.

 

[3D Master]

Kegek said:

3D Master said:
Except that Spock is lying through his teeth, right then as well, every single friggin' moment he's with her. Meaning "they refuse to lie/kill even in self-defense (and thus kills them)" as you say, is BULLSHIT!

Hmm. I should perhaps clarify here. I was drawing an analogy between the Vulcan ethic against lying and the Amish ethic against killing even in self-defense. Whether Vulcans accept - in theory - that lying is acceptable is self-defense in uncertain; Spock certainly employed it in practice (much to Saavik's amused chagrin in The Wrath of Khan).

The Romulan Commander certainly seemed to believe they did not concede lying even in self-defense, but her knowledge of Vulcan seemed somewhat dubious at best.

If lying was such big a deal, we wouldn't see Vulcans lying all the time, nor would Saavik be amused in her shagrin. If Vulcans lying was such a huge deal, than Spock lying would have her most incensed and shocked. Similarly, Valeris wouldn't be amused at Spocks compounding lie of "an error", she'd be horrified.

It seems to currently revolve around the importance Vulcans attach to lying. Beaker, for example, has observed that Spock lied with regret, which suggests, as I do, that Vulcans take lying very seriously - as sin against their sense of ethics.

And just about anyone else sees Spock and other Vulcans lying all the time and even being "amused" at it. If Vulcans took lying at such a devastating taboo, they wouldn't be amused at it at all - especially not the logical Vulcans.

I submit Spock's regret isn't so much about lying, but how he destroyed that Romulan commander's career by fooling her and capturing her. He certainly never showed any regret with all the lies he's told afterward.