Voyager season 6

[Ghost]

To me the Hirogen could have been similar to the Cardassians if they had been used more frequently.
The Vaadwaur didn't seem that interesting to me, except perhaps for the fact that we learn from the ep that they used to control a vast area of the DQ. For this reason perhaps they could have returned. (Do you have info about why the producers decided not to do so? Was this an option in the first place at all?)

It is interesting to see how many people think the Borg were overused. Sorry but I can't agree there. I wish we had had three times as many Borg episodes. They are usually highly fascinating and as main antagonists on VOY, I would have found it more "logical" to use them in several other episodes.

Oh I would also have liked to have seen the Hirogen more, I was actually thinking about them when I wrote my response.
But then I started thinking "Where to take them next?" (the Hirogen). They make cool antagonists to the Voyager crew but you can only tell so many stories in which Hirogen hunt Voyager and its people.
Stories about the gradual change of their culture as they try to reunite to restore their civilization and perhaps become more tolerant of non Hirogen, not treating all as prey any more?

Well the thing about the Borg is is not that it is not logical for them to show up as Voyager was set in the Delta Quadrant after all which is their home quadrant, but that I found a lot of the stories after "Scorpion" and "Drone" very weak and deconstructing the mystery of the Borg Collective more and more.

I liked "First Contact" when it first came into the theaters and it is the most fun TNG movie even if some of the main characters are written rather out of character compared to TNG, but over the years I have come to realize some of its flaws.

1. Why would the Borg want to prevent the rise of the Federation? The Federation is not a real threat to them as otherwise they would have send hundreds or thousands of cubes and not just one.
More importantly the Borg wants to assimilate it for the resources and technologies it can provide. If the Federation never arose these would not exist either.

2. I hate the Borg Queen. In FC I saw her/it as sort of the embodiment of the Collective, a "face" given to the Collective Consciousness of the Borg.
But in Voyager she became more and more the leader of the Borg and less of a "face" or "voice". She was now a queen leading a swarm of drones and actually was interested in individuals and held grudges.
What made the Borg so alien is that they were beyond such concepts, all they are interested in is what your civilization as a whole could offer and not particular individuals they want. Picard was chosen as their "ambassador" to make clear to the Federation what the Borg wanted, had another captain been available with intimate knowledge of Starfleet's command structure, tactical capabilities, and strategies the Borg would probably just as well have settled for him/her/it.
I think that even during BOBW Locutus made clear that in the big scheme of things it really was irrelevant as it had already served its purpose.

So I honestly could have done without the Borg Queen and giving the Collective a face now that I look back on them. Someone on another forum once suggested the following idea for First Contact instead when Data and Picard talk to the Borg.
Rather than the Queen, one Borg drone starts to talk to them and as Picard/Data pass them by or another approaches it takes over the conversation without interruption, and so on and so on.
Now that would have been weird and memorable.

Had Voyager's Borg episodes been more like "Q who", "Best of both worlds", and "Scorpion" in which the Borg remained alien and barely understood, let alone not continuously weakened down for the sake of weaker stories I would have held them higher on VOY.

Note 1. I once had a fan fic idea for a Voyager story set in an alternative timeline in which "Dark Frontier" and subsequent Borg episodes did not exist that when the Voyager crew/Seven encounters the Borg Collective again that the Borg consider Seven to be "corrupted beyond recovery" and that she is to be "deactivated" or "retired". The result would be that Seven realizes that she can never go back to the Borg again and that she should instead try to pursue the ideal of reaching perfection as an individual, accepting her human part in it.

Note 2. All this talk about Hirogen and the Borg made me think of another fan fic idea I had a while back. It would be a story about a young Hirogen hunter who seeks to attain the rank of Alpha by hunting a very dangerous prey; the crew of a Borg scout vessel/sphere.
I do think I have been kind of influences by Aliens vs Predator in which young Predators are only given the rank or status of full hunter by hunting a xenomorph.
Oh well.

especially given that the Vaadwaur had some early, past experiences with the Borg, which could have been revived themselves, in some form, which could have enhanced the arc of the plot.

A fan fic idea of mine in order to explain why the Borg did not seem so widespread in the Vaadwaur's era would have been because the Borg had only "recently" returned (recently when you look at their extended history).

The Borg Collective would still be tens of thousands of years old as mentioned on TNG, but there have been multiple "incarnations" of itself.
The incarnations before the current one that poses such a great threat to current civilizations had in the past encountered civilizations or "things" more powerful than themselves at the time or had drawn the attention of these while they went around assimilating civilizations and species.
These powerful forces would wage war on the Collective, or do something else that destroyed the majority of the Borg incarnation at the time, but always leave some remnants behind so that the Collective could recover, a few ships, a colony, a few drones, or even just nano probes.

And afterwards it would not be unheard of that the new Borg Collective springing from these would end up destroying or assimilating their previous superior enemies.

 

[Prax]

It is interesting to see how many people think the Borg were overused. Sorry but I can't agree there. I wish we had had three times as many Borg episodes. They are usually highly fascinating and as main antagonists on VOY, I would have found it more "logical" to use them in several other episodes.

Well, there's always a group that likes to complain, and the bulk are usually repeating something they've heard. But for the people that have this genuine complaint, I can totally sympathize.

I too, remember being a little kid, sitting on my living room floor watching "Q-Who" with the family, and being terrified of the Borg, and their relentless introduction, and likewise when they upped the stakes in "Best of Best Worlds"

However, I think they made the Borg as threatening in later incarnations as was ever going to be possible. By way of exploring the race, and by Starfleet interacting with them more, they are simply going to lose the fear factor, little by little. I don't think the uber danger of the Borg was ever fully lost, though, and that sense of "unstoppable" was again rekindled on Enterprise, which fits with the story.

Collective, a "face" given to the Collective Consciousness of the Borg.
But in Voyager she became more and more the leader of the Borg and less of a "face" or "voice". She was now a queen leading a swarm of drones and actually was interested in individuals and held grudges.
What made the Borg so alien is that they were beyond such concepts, all they are interested in is what your civilization as a whole could offer and not particular individuals they want. Picard was chosen as their "ambassador" to make clear to the Federation what the Borg wanted, had another captain been available with intimate knowledge of Starfleet's command structure, tactical capabilities, and strategies the Borg would probably just as well have settled for him/her/it.
I think that even during BOBW Locutus made clear that in the big scheme of things it really was irrelevant as it had already served its purpose.

I like the Borg Queen about 50% of the time. That is, I love the 2 Alice Krige appearances, but not as much the other 2. However, I love Dark Frontier in general. It's really good.
I don't know that the Queen is their leader, in a human sense.

Spoiler

She is destroyed every time she appears, only to be seen again. And she's only ever assembled to communicate with Seven, or Janeway.

She can be assembled anywhere, on any ship. I think she is the Borg.

Favorite BQ line: "Stay out of my nebula!"

 

[Farscape One]

Janeway: "There's coffee in that nebula."

 

[Thomas Eugene]

So ... I think where our differences of opinion lie is the fact that I have never thought of any Borg episodes as weak ones. Except perhaps in the case of ENDGAME but that has more to do with Janeway (Admiral) and not with the Borg.
And as some of you already know, I don't really like TNG so don't even mention that horrible two-parter to me. I mean what was that episode about? You would expect it to be about the Borg but two thirds of the episode are about Riker and that woman vying for the position of XO ...

But we can all agree on having wanted more good Borg episodes on VOY - or so it seems. Mind you, this is one of the reasons I don't like the relaunch books: you do away with the most iconic villain of Star Trek? Give me a break ...

@Ghost Do I understand correctly that you are a fan fiction writer? Again, this is one area for me where I'm very different from the average fan: I'd really like to read some but gluing your eyes to the monitor is only good for making you go blind. And having a 300-page long novel printed out isn't the ideal solution either. I mean ... what a waste of paper and ink, and you still don't have a book only a huge pile of sheets. Which is really a shame because I once found a "book" which was a crossover between VOY and Star Wars and I did read the first three chapters before giving it up although I really liked those. And since I'm not a big fan of the relaunch books (and the numbered series bored me so much that I gave up after the fourth one), there's not really anything to read for me re VOY ...

 

[cosmic mouse]

And now you are nearing the part of VOY, which for me is a bit worse in quality than the rest. Let's see what you'll think about the end of Season 6.

I'll let you know, TE... I am hoping to finish season 6 by tonight or tomorrow (Tuesday latest!). I have 6 episodes left and, since I just got home from being out all night, hopefully no interruptions today.
Live Fast & Prosper here I come, and I have heard a number of positive comments on Muse so looking forward to that one as well...

 

[Ghost]

First time I am exchanging thoughts with you so I did not know about you not liking Star Trek TNG.
While I can understand your viewpoint about BOBW regarding how the story played out the episode did establish a lot about the Borg, what their eventual goals are and setting up the template against which future Borg episodes would be measured.
More parts with the Borg would have been nice during that episode but like with Jaws, the less they are shown the more they remain a mysterious threat.

Regarding Voyager, I really wish Seven of Nine had not always been the center or focus in a lot of Borg episodes. Yeah I know it would make sense because of the character's origins to play a prominent role in those but the Borg Queen being interested in her or Unimatrix Zero? I feel we could have done without those episodes.

As for Pocket Book Relaunches of Star Trek TNG and Voyager, that is kind of a different subject now but I have also not been very impressed by their releases in the main TNG/DSN/VGR era post Nemesis/Endgame or their Original Series era (which I mostly turned to because I did not like the TNG/DSN/VGR book continuations).
I do not like the Destiny trilogy either, the origins in the Borg told in it, and how the Borg are dealt with once and for all, "making room" for political esque conflicts a la Star Wars such as the tensions between the Federation and the Typhon Pact, or the endless "bringing back elements from old TNG, DSN, and VGR" in the books.
A couple of times is fine but dammit, this is starting to feel like "Member Berries" from South Park, "Member this from that episode?" when in a book yet another element once mentioned on any of the series makes its appearance.

And don't talk to me about the Mirror Universe, I honestly truly am starting to hate that idea. It went from an interesting "What if..." to something I feel that has been milked to death and has become a joke. It is basically the evil DC universe in which evil prevails and good sucks!
Might as well now introduce Nazi Starfleet universe in which the Nazis won world war 2 and conquered the world (how unlikely that would have been even in reality) and now is conquering the universe, allowing for even more books with a crapsack universe theme. How will alternate LaForge and Harry Kim stop Obergruppenführer Bashir's latest evil scheme to establish galaxy wide genetic purity?

I followed the DSN Relaunch for a while before I called it quits and never even started on TNG Relaunch or Voyager Relaunch, and eventually I even stopped reading the Original Series books because they could no longer hold my attention any more.
Only ST prose book series I still like is New Frontier and it is doubtful that that will continue in the future.
These days the only thing Star Trek I still follow is what John Byrne produces on the franchise.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

First time I am exchanging thoughts with you so I did not know about you not liking Star Trek TNG.
While I can understand your viewpoint about BOBW regarding how the story played out the episode did establish a lot about the Borg, what their eventual goals are and setting up the template against which future Borg episodes would be measured.
More parts with the Borg would have been nice during that episode but like with Jaws, the less the show of them the more they remain a mysterious threat.

Regarding Voyager, I really wish Seven of Nine had not always been the center or focus in a lot of Borg episodes. Yeah I know it would make sense because of the character's origins to play a prominent role in those but the Borg Queen being interested in her or Unimatrix Zero? I feel we could have done without those episodes.

As for Pocket Book Relaunches of Star Trek TNG and Voyager, that is kind of a different subject now but I have also not been very impressed by their releases in the main TNG/DSN/VGR era post Nemesis/Endgame or their Original Series era (which I mostly turned to because I did not like the TNG/DSN/VGR book continuations).
I do not like the Destiny trilogy either, the origins in the Borg told in it, and how the Borg are dealt with once and for all, "making room" for political esque conflicts a la Star Wars such as the tensions between the Federation and the Typhon Pact, or the endless "bringing back elements from old TNG, DSN, and VGR" in the books.
A couple of times is fine but dammit, this is starting to feel like "Member Berries" from South Park, "Member this from that episode?" when in a book yet another element once mentioned on any of the series makes its appearance.

And don't talk to me about the Mirror Universe, I honestly truly am starting to hate that idea. It went from an interesting "What if..." to something I feel that has been milked to death and has become a joke. It is basically the evil DC universe in which evil prevails and good sucks!
Might as well now introduce Nazi Starfleet universe in which the Nazis won world war 2 and conquered the world (how unlikely that would have been even in reality) and now is conquering the universe, allowing for even more books with a crapsack universe theme. How will alternate LaForge and Harry Kim with Obergruppenführer Bashir's latest evil scheme to establish galaxy wide genetic purity?

I followed the DSN Relaunch for a while before I called it quits and never even started on TNG Relaunch or Voyager Relaunch, and eventually I even stopped reading the Original Series books because they could no longer hold my attention any more.
Only ST prose book series I still like is New Frontier and it is doubtful that that will continue in the future.
These days the only thing Star Trek I still follow is what John Byrne produces on the franchise.

No problem, you didn't need to know about me not being a big fan of TNG. I find it boring most of the time ... And Picard really really suffers when he has to smile ... I saw the whole thing once and then on second viewing I gave it up. I'm considering watching it again though ... we shall see if I can get myself to do so one day.

I don't like mirror universe stories, it seems that everyone is a jerk there no matter whether they are likeable or not in the prime universe. Perhaps one of the reasons why LIVING WITNESS is so enjoyable is the fact that you know from start it can't be right and in this sense that it's not set in a mirror uni? Probably. DS9 is full of those stories ... and I think they are a pain to watch.

THE REST OF THE POST IS FULL OF SPOILERS RE RELAUNCH BOOKS (but after all this time spent on this forum, I still don't know how to make the 'spoiler' sign' ...) !!!

As concerns me, I actually like about the (VOY) relaunch books that so many episodes are revisited. What I don't like is that they kill off Janeway, they kill off the Borg ... and most importantly, Voyager to me has always been about a ship lost in space. Now that in the books you can reach the Delta Quadrant in about two hours and it's not only Voyager that goes back but a whole fleet of ships - I think this takes away everything I like about the show.

 

[Prax]

THE REST OF THE POST IS FULL OF SPOILERS RE RELAUNCH BOOKS (but after all this time spent on this forum, I still don't know how to make the 'spoiler' sign' ...) !!!

Like this:
[ SPOILER ] Janeway is really a Klingon spy [ / SPOILER ]

(Remove spaces)

 

[JirinPanthosa]

For the Hirogen to be a good villain we would have had to meet Hirogen who didn't give half a crap about the hunt and found out it was only one facet of a complex society.

 

[Prax]

For the Hirogen to be a good villain we would have had to meet Hirogen who didn't give half a crap about the hunt and found out it was only one facet of a complex society.

Good thing we met Hirogen like that.

 

[Refuge]

The Hirogen in Tsunkatse grew tired of the hunt mentality and achieved a more sympathetic reading from me at least. Also in Flesh and Blood that young Hirogen technician, Donik, had more light and shade to his character.

I didn't 'like' the Hirogens but they were good villains in my opinion because they were relentless and the way the hunt was like a game to them made them cunning and threatening.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Good thing we met Hirogen like that.

Kinda, not really. Like one or two of them? One of them a technician trying to make the hunt less bloody, and if I recall one guy who was a fellow captive? We never got any hint that any part of their culture did not revolve around the hunt.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Like this:
[ SPOILER ] Janeway is really a Klingon spy [ / SPOILER ]

(Remove spaces)

Thanks.

So Janeway is a Klingon spy? I'm shocked ... Especially because she is very good at masking her Klingon facial features ...

 

[cosmic mouse]

@Thomas Eugene What was it about haunting of Deck Twelve that you didn't like again? It's not my favorite episode, but I thought it was pretty good. But, then again, I like the Borg kids, Mezoti and Icheb, in particular, so that might explain why. I did think the main topic of the ep was interesting though (the nebula alien wreaking havoc on the ship)...


I, however, wasn't a huge fan of Fury and I can understand why this episode is maligned by some (and that's coming from someone who wasn't even a big Kes fan early on). There were parts of the ep I liked, but on the whole it seemed an odd and rather pointless affair to me.
Life Line was pretty cool though and I liked that Picardo got to act in a slightly different role. Even if a person is not a fan of the Doc you have to admit that Picardo is a really good actor. He was able to play his creator and his creation (with all their basic similarities to each other, as well as some differences) with what I consider to be some subtle nuances.

I have only one ep left in season 6: Unimatrix Zero....I can't believe I'm almost up to s7 already, but I did start watching season 1 in June, so it's been awhile.

 

[cosmic mouse]

Oh, one other tiny, little thing I liked about Haunting on Deck 12 was the shot from within the replicator (when Chakotay gives Janeway his repair report and she's replicating a cup of coffee). I actually freeze-framed that shot for a minute when I watched the ep since I thought the camera angle looked so cool...

 

[Thomas Eugene]

@Thomas Eugene What was it about haunting of Deck Twelve that you didn't like again? It's not my favorite episode, but I thought it was pretty good. But, then again, I like the Borg kids, Mezoti and Icheb, in particular, so that might explain why. I did think the main topic of the ep was interesting though (the nebula alien wreaking havoc on the ship)...


I, however, wasn't a huge fan of Fury and I can understand why this episode is maligned by some (and that's coming from someone who wasn't even a big Kes fan early on). There were parts of the ep I liked, but on the whole it seemed an odd and rather pointless affair to me.
Life Line was pretty cool though and I liked that Picardo got to act in a slightly different role. Even if a person is not a fan of the Doc you have to admit that Picardo is a really good actor. He was able to play his creator and his creation (with all their basic similarities to each other, as well as some differences) with what I consider to be some subtle nuances.

I have only one ep left in season 6: Unimatrix Zero....I can't believe I'm almost up to s7 already, but I did start watching season 1 in June, so it's been awhile.

LIVE FAST AND PROSPER, MUSE, THE HAUNTING OF DECK TWELVE - these are all episodes that I find pretty boring compared to VOY eps in general. Of the three I find THODT the most boring one ... And in the middle of this there's FURY which I hate outright. The only one I really like is LIFE LINE at the end of the season (did you know that Robert Picardo had written it?) and then of course, UNIMATRIX ZERO but that's partly Season 7 already.

 

[Prax]

Kinda, not really. Like one or two of them? One of them a technician trying to make the hunt less bloody, and if I recall one guy who was a fellow captive? We never got any hint that any part of their culture did not revolve around the hunt.

We've had more Predator movies than Hirogen episodes, and in every Hirogen episode, we are given at least one guy to relate to, and/or sympathize with. Do we need to see Hirogen animal rights activists? Or Hirogen ascetics? They're nomads. There's no Hirogen Homeworld that we know of.

We have met Hirogen that don't care about the hunt, in Killing Game, we have the Hirogen reformer, in Tsunkatse, we have the Hirogen advocate, and in

Spoiler

Flesh n Blood, we have the Hirogen engineer, who gets on better with humans than his hunter brethren, and who has his own redemption arc, and bully arc.

For only showing up 5 times, they've been treated at least as good, if not better than Klingons, as a race.

 

[Prax]

@Thomas Eugene What was it about haunting of Deck Twelve that you didn't like again? It's not my favorite episode, but I thought it was pretty good. But, then again, I like the Borg kids, Mezoti and Icheb, in particular, so that might explain why. I did think the main topic of the ep was interesting though (the nebula alien wreaking havoc on the ship)...


I, however, wasn't a huge fan of Fury and I can understand why this episode is maligned by some (and that's coming from someone who wasn't even a big Kes fan early on). There were parts of the ep I liked, but on the whole it seemed an odd and rather pointless affair to me.
Life Line was pretty cool though and I liked that Picardo got to act in a slightly different role. Even if a person is not a fan of the Doc you have to admit that Picardo is a really good actor. He was able to play his creator and his creation (with all their basic similarities to each other, as well as some differences) with what I consider to be some subtle nuances.

I have only one ep left in season 6: Unimatrix Zero....I can't believe I'm almost up to s7 already, but I did start watching season 1 in June, so it's been awhile.

Did you see Muse?

 

[cosmic mouse]

LIVE FAST AND PROSPER, MUSE, THE HAUNTING OF DECK TWELVE - these are all episodes that I find pretty boring compared to VOY eps in general. Of the three I find THODT the most boring one ... And in the middle of this there's FURY which I hate outright. The only one I really like is LIFE LINE at the end of the season (did you know that Robert Picardo had written it?) and then of course, UNIMATRIX ZERO but that's partly Season 7 already.

Yes, I think I recall you saying previously that you found THODT to be boring; I guess I was curious more as to why you found it boring. But, no need to answer that directly... sometimes there is no tangible answer.
I did love that "inside the replicator" shot though. I'm keeping my eyeballs peeled for more of those shots from within a piece of equipment. Not sure I really noticed that before, although it may have occurred in other eps.

Did you see Muse?

I did... and now realize that I forgot to comment on it. I thought it was a great episode. I see what you mean about it being meta, since it really is (among other things) about the process of writing/creating for an audience, so it has that "self-aware" capacity to it. I haven't read any trivia on this ep, but some of the inspiration has to be from Greek/Roman times, yes? The similarities (amphitheater setting, etc) were very close. The costumes were also good, and I thought Dawson did a great job here. Her performance in relationship to her captor/devotee was realistic and genuine. Having said all that it's not my favorite ep (though probably in my top 5 for season 6), mainly because I just prefer the episodes when our heroes are out in space or on the ship, but that's like 90% of the series, so this was a nice diversion of sorts.

 

[Prax]

Yes, I think I recall you saying previously that you found THODT to be boring; I guess I was curious more as to why you found it boring. But, no need to answer that directly... sometimes there is no tangible answer.
I did love that "inside the replicator" shot though. I'm keeping my eyeballs peeled for more of those shots from within a piece of equipment. Not sure I really noticed that before, although it may have occurred in other eps.



I did... and now realize that I forgot to comment on it. I thought it was a great episode. I see what you mean about it being meta, since it really is (among other things) about the process of writing/creating for an audience, so it has that "self-aware" capacity to it. I haven't read any trivia on this ep, but some of the inspiration has to be from Greek/Roman times, yes? The similarities (amphitheater setting, etc) were very close. The costumes were also good, and I thought Dawson did a great job here. Her performance in relationship to her captor/devotee was realistic and genuine. Having said all that it's not my favorite ep (though probably in my top 5 for season 6), mainly because I just prefer the episodes when our heroes are out in space or on the ship, but that's like 90% of the series, so this was a nice diversion of sorts.

There was an inside the replicator shot in THOD12? I remember the "Inside the equipment" shot in Voyager Conspiracy.

Yeah, I liked Muse. B'elanna is not a very empathetic person towards others.
"Cut me free. Of course I'm a god, now cut me free."
"Go get me a piece of metal, gold plated"
"Do you have any idea how much that would cost?"
"You want the story? Go get the gold"

"Go get me some of those rocks"(dilithium?)
"That's the King's land! I could get killed! And it's far away!"
"Then you better get movin!"

For some reason, I like her like this. Then, she gets caught up in her own story, and making sure he doesn't screw it up.
I also like the scene where Harry finds her, and they hug.
And my favorite scene is where the director says "but what about the reveal, the reversal, etc?" B'elanna says "the what?" and the old man says "modern tricks! Find the truth of your story, and you won't need that stuff."

It's true. So many modern shows and movies rely very heavily on "reveals," plot twists, reversals, slow reveals, endless cliff hangers, and "mystery boxes." They might retain audiences(so does "Days Of Our Lives), but they don't have that same satisfaction that a solid, complete story has, imo.