Voyager is without a doubt the BEST!

[Alpha Romeo]

I'm not sure why, either. But personally, I prefer Voyager to all the other series. Anyone agree? Or not?

I suppose it's a process of elimination. TOS was too ropey, TNG was too stuck-up, DS9 was a soap opera in space and don't get me started on ENT...

Fucking gag me...

 

[kimc]

I'm not sure why, either. But personally, I prefer Voyager to all the other series. Anyone agree? Or not?

I suppose it's a process of elimination. TOS was too ropey, TNG was too stuck-up, DS9 was a soap opera in space and don't get me started on ENT...

Fucking gag me...

This is complete uncalled for.

 

[Alpha Romeo]

I'm not sure why, either. But personally, I prefer Voyager to all the other series. Anyone agree? Or not?

I suppose it's a process of elimination. TOS was too ropey, TNG was too stuck-up, DS9 was a soap opera in space and don't get me started on ENT...

Fucking gag me...

This is complete uncalled for.

Anyone here for one second think I as flaming a poster I don't know and have never interacted with?

 

[Enterpriserules]

Oh........ I thought this was a joke thread.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Fucking gag me...

This is complete uncalled for.

Anyone here for one second think I as flaming a poster I don't know and have never interacted with?

You were however mocking a concept, an idea, thrashing a symbol and killing hope. The chipper sentimentality that is the Voyager forum is even welcome to the glum bums who don't have a glimmer of optimism left in their emptied soul after being mellowed out into a Grisseled drone with the manners of a distopic soviet cold war spy after years of abuse from DS9 and BSG, and because of that incredible ability to be so accepting it's hardly gentlemanly to kick their glowing sense of self worth in the pride sack when we're visitors in their house of gushing.

 

[Gotham Central]

This is complete uncalled for.

Anyone here for one second think I as flaming a poster I don't know and have never interacted with?

You were however mocking a concept, an idea, thrashing a symbol and killing hope. The chipper sentimentality that is the Voyager forum is even welcome to the glum bums who don't have a glimmer of optimism left in their emptied soul after being mellowed out into a Grisseled drone with the manners of a distopic soviet cold war spy after years of abuse from DS9 and BSG, and because of that incredible ability to be so accepting it's hardly gentlemanly to kick their glowing sense of self worth in the pride sack when we're visitors in their house of gushing.

you definately have a way with words

 

[Too Much Fun]

^ Yeah, I kind of agree. I am one of those fans who generally like all of the series. But to be honest, Voyager is hardly at the top of my ranking.

Well I hate Voyager so I have nothing to contribute to the topic of this thread (I clicked on it because I thought it might be a joke and wanted to find out), but I do want to say to "NCC-1701" that I think your animated countdown up there is awesome. How did you ever put that together? Fantastic work!

 

[trilbymonkey]

I like the fact that Voyager actually had a point, not so much exploration, but to get home. While they did make the odd detour to explore, there inevitably had to be an end, not like any other series which could keep on going pretty much forever...

 

[wahwahkits]

I like the fact that Voyager actually had a point, not so much exploration, but to get home. While they did make the odd detour to explore, there inevitably had to be an end, not like any other series which could keep on going pretty much forever...

That's a good point. People come on here and say that Voyager had no arc, yet the whole getting home thing was tha arc. That's what the series was about.
Another criticism levelled at the show is this abandoned the Maquis premise blah blah blah
Nonsense!!
Isn't the 1st officer and Chief Engineer ex-maquis? Aren't they in virtually every episode? I could understand the arguement if every Maquis disappeared without trace but they didn't did they?
Also, the conflict largely disappeared between the two crews because they had a common purpose -- to get home to their families and lives and besides the Maquis crew are at the core good people fighting for (in their eyes) a just cause so why would they cause unecessary conflict?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Isn't the 1st officer and Chief Engineer ex-maquis? Aren't they in virtually every episode?

You couldn't sum it any harder if you were falling down an elevator shaft. Are Chakotay and B'Elanna EX Maquis or Maquis? Are they Starfleet officers or Pretend Starfleet officers? or are they Maquis and Real Starfleet Officers or maquis and fake Starfleet officers? Is there any distinction that 4 years in the academy didn't teach every one else that earned their positions and worked their asses off to get that job? Do the real Starfleet Officers care that terrorists are taking valuable ranking positions that they do not have the training or dicipline to handle? Can you imagine the hand holdingand coddling that would have had to have occurred in the first year?

Hells, even Tuvok was a only a pretend Maquis and he still spazzed out and started killing people.

 

[wahwahkits]

Isn't the 1st officer and Chief Engineer ex-maquis? Aren't they in virtually every episode?

You couldn't sum it any harder if you were falling down an elevator shaft. Are Chakotay and B'Elanna EX Maquis or Maquis? Are they Starfleet officers or Pretend Starfleet officers? or are they Maquis and Real Starfleet Officers or maquis and fake Starfleet officers? Is there any distinction that 4 years in the academy didn't teach every one else that earned their positions and worked their asses off to get that job? Do the real Starfleet Officers care that terrorists are taking valuable ranking positions that they do not have the training or dicipline to handle? Can you imagine the hand holdingand coddling that would have had to have occurred in the first year?

Hells, even Tuvok was a only a pretend Maquis and he still spazzed out and started killing people.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[TheGodBen]

I like the fact that Voyager actually had a point, not so much exploration, but to get home. While they did make the odd detour to explore, there inevitably had to be an end, not like any other series which could keep on going pretty much forever...

That's a good point. People come on here and say that Voyager had no arc, yet the whole getting home thing was tha arc. That's what the series was about.

It wasn't really an arc though, it was just random episodes throughout the series and then in the final episode they get home. For it to be an arc you can't use the reset button like Voyager liked to do, and you have to build towards something, you can't just have the final episode be removed from nearly everything which happened before.

Examples of successful plot and character arcs can be seen in the following shows: Deep Space Nine, Battlestar Galactica, Lost, The West Wing, The Sopranos, and even comedy series such as Scrubs and Arrested Development.

Voyager is closer to The Simpsons because very little changed and things reset back to normal by the beginning of next week's episode. Occasionally they do a follow-up to a previous episode (such as Frank Grimes Junior trying to kill Homer) but it is very rare.

I actually thought that Voyager was going to have an arc towards the end of season 7 which would end with them getting home. In the penultimate episode (I didn't know it was the penultimate episode when I first watched it) Janeway talks to Chakotay about entering a region of space with extreme environmentalists who were going to confiscate their warp drive. I thought that this was an enemy they would have to fight for a few weeks before they could get home, but instead it was all some dumb ruse by the Doctor and the finale was some stupid Borg/time travel plot.

 

[wahwahkits]

I agree the finale wasn't the best episode but it was still good!! Cast your mind back to the DS9 finale, although it was good it felt like a rush job. IMO the only perfect finale has been All Good Things.
You see where I'm going with this? I think the criticisms thrown at Voyager can be thrown at least at one of the other series as well.
Lack of story arc --- see Next Gen

Reset button? --- See Next Gen and TOS

 

[TheGodBen]

Lack of story arc --- see Next Gen

Reset button? --- See Next Gen and TOS

Agreed, but the problem is that those shows didn't really have anything else to compare them to while Voyager did. DS9 started taking risks in terms of story arcs and character development and plot twists that would change the entire dynamic of the show. You also had Babylon 5 on the air, and even though I never managed to watch past the fourth episode I know by its reputation that it was doing the same things. We didn't have DS9 or B5 to compare TOS or TNG to, but we did for Voyager.

If Voyager had the same special effects as TOS then I would rightly criticise them, but since TOS was made in the sixties it can be excused for the crappy effects. It is like that only about the state of the writing.

 

[Praetor]

I actually thought that Voyager was going to have an arc towards the end of season 7 which would end with them getting home. In the penultimate episode (I didn't know it was the penultimate episode when I first watched it) Janeway talks to Chakotay about entering a region of space with extreme environmentalists who were going to confiscate their warp drive. I thought that this was an enemy they would have to fight for a few weeks before they could get home, but instead it was all some dumb ruse by the Doctor and the finale was some stupid Borg/time travel plot.

Seconded, and the 'warp environmentalists' while already having been done in a different way in TNG would have probably made a better episode than the one in question. Here was an opportunity to expand on TNG in a way that was actually relevant to the premise! (ZOMG!) I don't recall the name of that ep, but if it's the one where the Doc goes around drugging everyone to help the 'Watchers' - yeah, that sucked.

 

[TheGodBen]

I don't recall the name of that ep, but if it's the one where the Doc goes around drugging everyone to help the 'Watchers' - yeah, that sucked.

Yeah, that's the one. Neelix had just left and I was under the mistaken impression that there was at least five episodes to go and so I thought this was the beginning of the end. I should have known better.

What I don't understand is how they passed up on that opportunity. When they wrote the episode they must have realised that the idea about the warp environmentalists was better than the actual episode they were writing, so why did they continue to write that episode? Imagine a world where Michaelangelo is eating some potatoes and he comes up with the idea to do a statue based on the biblical King David, so he ends up making a statue of a potato.

Even I don't understand what I was trying to say that time.

 

[Praetor]

I don't recall the name of that ep, but if it's the one where the Doc goes around drugging everyone to help the 'Watchers' - yeah, that sucked.

Yeah, that's the one. Neelix had just left and I was under the mistaken impression that there was at least five episodes to go and so I thought this was the beginning of the end. I should have known better.

Yeah, I thought so too. It seemed a bit ridiculous to cut Neelix out so early and not have a final arc of some kind.

What I don't understand is how they passed up on that opportunity. When they wrote the episode they must have realised that the idea about the warp environmentalists was better than the actual episode they were writing, so why did they continue to write that episode? Imagine a world where Michaelangelo is eating some potatoes and he comes up with the idea to do a statue based on the biblical King David, so he ends up making a statue of a potato.

Even I don't understand what I was trying to say that time.

Actually, I did understand anyway. Now I'm scared

It's like the end of that Enterprise episode where they rescue a ship from some organ-stealing attackers and the rescused folks turn out to be the Axanar ('Silent Enemy?' I dunno.) At the end, there's a line from Archer saying something like 'we spent three weeks with the Axanar - turns out they're all androgynous and have an interesting culture' or something like that.

Um, helllooo? Would fifteen minutes to show us that not have been more interesting than a whole hour that amounts to a bad mishmash of 'Balance of Terror' and 'Darmok'?

But I digress.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Some shite went down with Garth of Izar on Axanar too.

That would have been one sweet TOS overlap considering the bloke is inhuman enough to have god knows what sort of life span.

 

[Gotham Central]

I like the fact that Voyager actually had a point, not so much exploration, but to get home. While they did make the odd detour to explore, there inevitably had to be an end, not like any other series which could keep on going pretty much forever...

That's a good point. People come on here and say that Voyager had no arc, yet the whole getting home thing was tha arc. That's what the series was about.
Another criticism levelled at the show is this abandoned the Maquis premise blah blah blah
Nonsense!!
Isn't the 1st officer and Chief Engineer ex-maquis? Aren't they in virtually every episode? I could understand the arguement if every Maquis disappeared without trace but they didn't did they?
Also, the conflict largely disappeared between the two crews because they had a common purpose -- to get home to their families and lives and besides the Maquis crew are at the core good people fighting for (in their eyes) a just cause so why would they cause unecessary conflict?

You seem a bit confused about difference between the premise and an arc. The voyage home was part of the premise. Lost in Space had the exact same premise, but the show had no arcs. You could watch the episodes in virtually any order. A good way to determine whether or not a show is working with arcs is to look and see if the episodes can be shown in virtually any order. Is there fore shadowing? Is there any indication that the writers had a plan for the overall story? Is the story/show building to anything? If the answer to those questions is no, then the show has no arc.

Now compare Voyager to DS9. There are whole sequences of episodes that MUST be watched in the correct order in order to follow the story. The first few episodes of season 6 was was one long story. Conversely, the last TEN episodes of season seven was specifically called the final arc. Each episode built on the previous one. Hell by your own admission "What You Leave Behind" felt rushed. The reason that was the case was because DS9 had ALOT of ground to cover even after having 10 straight episodes telling a continuous story. (actually the folks running DS9 actually wanted an 8th season since they still had quite a few stories to tell).

Voyager had none of that.

 

[Gotham Central]

Some shite went down with Garth of Izar on Axanar too.

That would have been one sweet TOS overlap considering the bloke is inhuman enough to have god knows what sort of life span.

You're asking too much of the writers on Enterprise. They had a tendency to forget members of their own cast. So you can hardly expect them to have knowledge of something that happened on some old show from the 1960s.