Vote: Worst Voyager character

[WoTe]

Sorry, but the suggetion for Kes would have been no better than the crap those in charge came up with.

Is there no option in which she survives and become her old self?

When she was introduced with the short lifespans, her death became an (unused) element of the show.

You are talking about a character that would have been around 60 in human years. Can't really go back to her old self unless the show just decided to toss it as so many things, and really, the reset button was used too much as it was.

 

[Terok Nor]

Am I the only one who thought "Fury" was a great episode?

When Kes left we were under the impression she'd ascended to another plane of existence and was probably going to use her new powers to be a benevolent force. To bring her back as this senile, vengeful, angry destructive being was the last thing anyone expected. I can understand Kes uber fans being annoyed but I thought it was an inspired choice for the episode. This was a former main character returning to kill the crew! Plus it had the Vidiians and time travel. What's not to love? The ending was kind of heartbreaking given we'd spent 3 years with Kes and this is how her story ended but I don't have a problem with that.

I tend to agree with what Jim Wright wrote about this episode. Which was something along the lines that when one has no attachment to Kes and views the episode dispassionately, it isn't even a terrible episode in itself, but that for a Kes-lover like hemself this episode was disgusting.

Also, I found the 'resolution' unconvincing: she's intent on killing everyone in the past, sees the vid of her own younger self and suddenly sees the light again. "I was going to kill everyone, but now ... no hard feelings guys, right ?" WTF ???

I actually liked Kes. I'd have preferred her not to have been written out at all but if the writers are never going to use the character again then what's the harm in giving her this storyline? I agree the resolution was lame but at least she didn't go through with her plans in the end. I don't think Kes or the events of this episode were ever referenced again so it's easy to just pretend it never happened since it had no long term impact on the series.

 

[Lynx]

Sorry, but the suggetion for Kes would have been no better than the crap those in charge came up with.

Is there no option in which she survives and become her old self?

When she was introduced with the short lifespans, her death became an (unused) element of the show.

You are talking about a character that would have been around 60 in human years. Can't really go back to her old self unless the show just decided to toss it as so many things, and really, the reset button was used too much as it was.

First of all, energy beings can't age. So she should have been the same as she was when she left.

Second, why no reset button for Kes? I mean, there were reset button for each one of the others. Why would Kes be the one and only exception?

 

[Terok Nor]

Lynx, what would you have done for this episode?

I liked how her natural aging process was not halted. It would have been a cop out after being told she will only live for 9 years. The whole reason she wanted to destroy Voyager and change the timeline is because she thought she'd wasted her life and blamed the crew for abandoning her. Kes was always going to be a tragic character with such a short lifespan in my opinion. Had she stayed on board after The Gift she'd have aged and died by the end of the series anyway.

 

[Lynx]

Lynx, what would you have done for this episode?

I liked how her natural aging process was not halted. It would have been a cop out after being told she will only live for 9 years. The whole reason she wanted to destroy Voyager and change the timeline is because she thought she'd wasted her life and blamed the crew for abandoning her. Kes was always going to be a tragic character with such a short lifespan in my opinion. Had she stayed on board after The Gift she'd have aged and died by the end of the series anyway.

First of all, I wouldn't have made that episode at all!

The episode I would have made is the story you find on the Kes Website under the name "Coming Home". It deals with the whole issue.

As for her lifespan, it could have been prolonged in some way without problems.

In a series where people could die and be resurrected (Spock), where people dies and are resurrected by their duplicates (Kim) where people can be separated in to two persons and be fused together (B'Elanna), where two persons can be fused into one personality and then be separated (Tuvok, Neelix), being turned to Borg and restorded (Picard, Seven, Janeway) and being transformed to lizards and restored (Paris, Janeway) everything is possible.

 

[hux]

I really wish that someone would apologize for posting a lot of semi-pornographic, meaningless crap which has bored the s**t out of me for a very long time

You want to apologise to yourself?

 

[Lynx]

I really wish that someone would apologize for posting a lot of semi-pornographic, meaningless crap which has bored the s**t out of me for a very long time

You want to apologise to yourself?

No, I can't remember that I have written any semi-pornographic, meaningless crap the recent time.

 

[hux]

No, I can't remember that I have written any semi-pornographic, meaningless crap the recent time.

Every single one of your myopic Kes fixated posts demonstrates a psychological unbalanced obsession. If this thread was about cheese, you'd somehow manage to bring it back to your unhealthy, perverse fascination with a forgettable character whose sole purpose was to be a tedious, innocent child.

 

[Lynx]

No, I can't remember that I have written any semi-pornographic, meaningless crap the recent time.

Every single one of your myopic Kes obsessed posts demonstrates a psychological unbalanced obsession. If this thread was about cheese, you'd somehow manage to bring it back to your unhealthy, perverse fascination with a forgettable character whose sole purpose was to be a tedious, innocent child.

Wow!

A lot of fine words there!

I'm almost touched with your concern for my health. However, I can assure you that it's nothing wrong with it.

As for your post which started this somewhat heated debate between us, I do have a question: Had it been totally impossible to come up with a comment like: "I just don't like the character" instead of the not so nice and somewhat sadistic comment you did come up with?

I mean, comments phasered faces and brutal deaths are really psychological unbalanced and somewhat sadistic too and to quote Barclay in "Projections: That is not good!.

Not to mention that you almost turned me into the Lynx of old days. That's not good either. Feels grrrreat for a while but not in the long run. It might be a bit unhealthy.

However, now I have had my little outburst for today so please come back another day. Show's over for this time and no extra numbers.

In the meantime, I would suggest that we simply skip the Voyager debates and instead have a nice chat about..............cheese!

 

[hux]

"I just don't like the character" is a dull sentence. I prefer to put some colour into my language. I thought my comment was (for someone who clearly doesn't care for the character) quite amusing but it seems you have no sense of humour when it comes to Kes.

Fury was a fun episode. Fury also proves that Lien was clearly on pretty good terms with everyone after being sacked. The poor-Lien victim narrative doesn't hold up. You may want to believe that she was dragged kicking and screaming from the set and never forgave them for their unforgivable treatment but Fury would suggest otherwise.

 

[Lynx]

"I just don't like the character" is a dull sentence. I prefer to put some colour into my language. I thought my comment was (for someone who clearly doesn't care for the character) quite amusing but it seems you have no sense of humour when it comes to Kes.

Fury was a fun episode. Fury also proves that Lien was clearly on pretty good terms with everyone after being sacked. The poor-Kes victim narrative doesn't wash. You may want to believe that she was dragged kicking and screaming from the set and never forgave them for their unforgivable treatment but Fury would suggest otherwise.

Oh, come on! You know you can't beat me when it comes to colourful comments!

Honestly, there are characters I have disliked but no one I would phaser out the faces on.

As for Lien and the horrible episode we are debating, according to Mulgrew, Lien didn't appear that happy during the filming of that episode. I can't remember where I read it now but I guess you can find that statement via Google.

Not to mention that her acting in that episode was not as good as it used to be in season 1-3. Something that also can be found in several reviews of that episode.

I must admit that I do have a sense of humor but not always when it comes to things I like, no matter if it's the local ice hockey team, a rock band or something else. I must also admit that I didn't find anything humourus at all in the comment, mind you I would have thought the same if it had been directed at Janeway, Neelix or any other character.

I remember many years ago when some poster on another forum wrote something that he wished that Kes used her power to transform Neelix into a plate of Jell-O. I did find that one a bit funny and actually wrote a short story about it too, mostly about Kes coming back to the galley to restore Neelix back to normal and her reaction when she see Captain Janeway eating and really enjoying the Jell-O.

I must also honestly admit that the episode we are debating did really p**s me off. I found it insulting to me and all other fans of the character who had participated in that letter campaign. And it still annoys me.

Besides that, it was a meaningless episode which didn't lead anywhere and had nothing to do with Voyager's ongoing adventures.

 

[HIjol]

I think Fury would have been better if Kes had turned up, instantly apologised for boring the shit out of everyone for so many years then phasered herself in the face (set to kill) and as the flakes of remaining skin and dust floated down to the ground, they spelt out the word "bye."

C'mon, Hux, if you do not like a character, just say so. Plainly. Don't beat around the bush, just be direct.

<...phasered in the face?...kill?...flakes of skin?...bye?...whoa!...>

@Lynx Kes was an OK character, I suppose, but my issue and what I never really got was her linkage with Neelix. To me, it was weird and creepy at times. But, to each her/his own.

 

[at Quark's]

I actually liked Kes. I'd have preferred her not to have been written out at all but if the writers are never going to use the character again then what's the harm in giving her this storyline? I agree the resolution was lame but at least she didn't go through with her plans in the end. I don't think Kes or the events of this episode were ever referenced again so it's easy to just pretend it never happened since it had no long term impact on the series.

If you look at it rationally ('it's only a show, we can do what we want as long as we are making good stories and entertaining the viewers'), that's true. But if you're going to 'dump' a character that has been on the main cast for several years, gathered a fanbase, and not giving him or her an at least somewhat nice sendoff, that fan group is going to be annoyed (and I'm just talking about moderate fans here). There's a difference between doing it to such a character and to the one-time-alien we never saw before this episode.

Suppose Tuvok had been revealed to be a Romulan spy in Endgame and met his demise just minutes before VOY reached the alpha quadrant. I suppose the Tuvok fans wouldn't have liked it. Even though in all likelihood, writers were never going to use the character again.

People didn't like the "unneccesary death" of Kirk. The ENT fans didn't like the casual death of Trip- and neither of them went on a rampage and tried to kill their former friends. I suppose people like to see their "hero" end on a positive note.

There is one scene I do like in Fury though, which is the goodbye scene between Kes and Neelix in the transporter room.

 

[WoTe]

First of all, energy beings can't age. So she should have been the same as she was when she left.

You mean if she really evolved like that guy in TNG's Transfigurations after Gift?

Well, as she was older in 'Fury', I guess it's that pesky reset button again

Second, why no reset button for Kes? I mean, there were reset button for each one of the others. Why would Kes be the one and only exception?

I just don't like the reset button. It was Voyager's weakest point undercutting the entire premise of the show time and again.

 

[Lynx]

I think Fury would have been better if Kes had turned up, instantly apologised for boring the shit out of everyone for so many years then phasered herself in the face (set to kill) and as the flakes of remaining skin and dust floated down to the ground, they spelt out the word "bye."

C'mon, Hux, if you do not like a character, just say so. Plainly. Don't beat around the bush, just be direct.

<...phasered in the face?...kill?...flakes of skin?...bye?...whoa!...>

@Lynx Kes was an OK character, I suppose, but my issue and what I never really got was her linkage with Neelix. To me, it was weird and creepy at times. But, to each her/his own.

When it comes to the Kes/Neelix relationship, I thought it was OK for the beginning of the series. he saves her from the Kazon and becomes her hero.

But as we could see, they were going in different directions from the moment they were accepted as crew members on Voyager.

Kes found a new life on Voyager. Interesting people to hag out with , the Hydroponics Bay and her project to grow food there, Then later on sickbay and the job with The Doctor and on top of that the opportunity to explore and discover "to seek out new worlds and new civilizations, to boldly go where no Ocampa had gone" wghich is exactly what I mean when I'm from time to time stating that "she personified the spirit of Star Trek".

Neelix, on the other hand realized that his contributions were very small. He didn't have such a good knowledge of the Delta Quadrant as he sometimes stated, he was a lousy cook and his mechanical skills and survival skills weren't up to Starfleet or Maquis standards either. His sometimes hysterical efforts to make everyone happy and his self-made role as "moral officer" were just a way for him to try to be useful in some way. He was frustrated and took it out on Kes by being over-protecting and jealous, knowin that she was slowly slipping away from his possesive control of her.

Therefore it was obvious already in Season 1 that they were drifting apart. What surprises me is why the writers didn't end the relationship in season 2, around "Parturition" when his jealousy and over-protection had become a mad obsession. They waited until season 3 when they finally ended something what was doomed from the middle of season 1 and they couldn't even do it in a decent way. The break-up in "Warlord" was ridiculous and happened because Tieran controlled Kes's mind and body at that time.

Instead, the break-up should have taken place during 2-3 episodes in season 2, maybe with Neelix acting like a jerk and Kes simply telling him "I have had enough! You're out of my life! Out!

Or something like that.

On the contrary to some people here, I don't find the age difference that creepy considering the fact that they were both aliens, Kes actually 17-18 years old and Neelix about 34. OK, maybe a little creepy if you think that a 17-18 years old shouldn't hang out with a 34 year old guy.

It was more his behavior I did find creepy, his jealousy and over-protection of her.

But I also want to state that I don't dislike Neelix in any way. I actually like him and I feel sorry for him because he was a victim of his traumatic past which made him behave the way he did, not only considering Kes but his total behavior on Voyager.

 

[Kilana2]

In the meantime, I would suggest that we simply skip the Voyager debates and instead have a nice chat about..............cheese!

A discussion about cheese? Where is Laser Beam?????

BTW, I came to recognize hux' provocative streak........

I used to have radical thoughts towards T'Pol. I avoid her by simply not watching Enterprise. Most of my aversion is due to poorly written scenes with that character together with boring episodes.

As to Kes: she is not one of my favorite characters, nor do I hate her....

 

[Lynx]

In the meantime, I would suggest that we simply skip the Voyager debates and instead have a nice chat about..............cheese!

A discussion about cheese? Where is Laser Beam?????

BTW, I came to recognize hux' provocative streak........

I used to have radical thoughts towards T'Pol. I avoid her by simply not watching Enterprise. Most of my aversion is due to poorly written scenes with that character together with boring episodes.

As to Kes: she is not one of my favorite characters, nor do I hate her....

Honestly, I have nothing against hux, he can actually be very funny sometimes. I just reacted badly on that comment, probably a result of the recent news from Tennessee and all the debates which have flared up since then.

Not to mention that I had started to write down a new Kes story and have totally lost all inspiration due to recent events, I just hope I'll get it back in time before my normal workload takes over. We'll see.

As for Enterprise, I never liked that series for different reasons and I do find T'pol the worst Star Trek character ever.

The only character I liked was Trip.

I did find Archer woody but I like Bakula in NCIS New Orleans.

 

[Kilana2]

In the meantime, I would suggest that we simply skip the Voyager debates and instead have a nice chat about..............cheese!

A discussion about cheese? Where is Laser Beam?????

BTW, I came to recognize hux' provocative streak........

I used to have radical thoughts towards T'Pol. I avoid her by simply not watching Enterprise. Most of my aversion is due to poorly written scenes with that character together with boring episodes.

As to Kes: she is not one of my favorite characters, nor do I hate her....

Honestly, I have nothing against hux, he can actually be very funny sometimes. I just reacted badly on that comment, probably a result of the recent news from Tennessee and all the debates which have flared up since then.

Not to mention that I had started to write down a new Kes story and have totally lost all inspiration due to recent events, I just hope I'll get it back in time before my normal workload takes over. We'll see.

As for Enterprise, I never liked that series for different reasons and I do find T'pol the worst Star Trek character ever.

The only character I liked was Trip.

I did find Archer woody but I like Bakula in NCIS New Orleans.

Archer is a good choice for the captain. T'Pol is the failed experiment of trying to introduce a sexy . And her German voice sucks. I only watched a few ENT episodes, so I guess it's normal that I find Trip bland.

Kes had her moments and I enjoy most or the moments when I encounter her in the Litverse (at least when she appears in the older novels as she isn't present in the relaunch).

 

[Lynx]

Archer is a good choice for the captain. T'Pol is the failed experiment of trying to introduce a sexy . And her German voice sucks. I only watched a few ENT episodes, so I guess it's normal that I find Trip bland.

Kes had her moments and I enjoy most or the moments when I encounter her in the Litverse (at least when she appears in the older novels as she isn't present in the relaunch).

Which is one reason that I find it hard to read the relaunch books.

I prefer the season 1-3 books where the whole old gang is together. The scenario in the new books where Tuvok, Neelix and Kes are gone and replaced by characters I find rather uninteresting isn't really my thing.

Kes is mostly brilliant in the old books, especially in "The Black Shore" and "Marooned".

 

[stardream]

Kes shows up in The Eternal Tide. Its a brief appearance. Problem is the re-launch novels are an ongoing story so you would have to read the preceding books to know what is going on.