Spoilers Voq Theory (graphic/violent)

[Lord Garth]

If any of you saw After Trek, after Trek, you will have seen the writers still being cagey about the Tyler - Voq connection. Why was this? I thought the theory that Tyler was Voq was pretty much spelled out in the episode (the prayer supposed to awaken the sleeper agent but somehow failing).

Were the writers bluffing us, is the Voq theory a red herring? Is it a double bluff, the Voq theory is correct but they're keeping us hanging?!

"He's a sleeper agent." "Sometimes memory is correct, memory is incorrect." "There's a certain sort of primal instinct that comes out that is not the Tyler that we know."

I think it's Talking Heads. They don't want to speak in absolutes so they can keep discussion going on After Trek. One-sentence answers are the last thing people want to go with in a free-flowing open forum.

I think it's less about whether or not Ash is Voq (as far as I'm concerned it's spelled out now that he is) and more about two personas in conflict with each other. Where does one begin and other end? How do you cope with being one thing when you thought you were something else entirely?

Memory can be incorrect because you're misinterpreting something that happened or it's incorrect because they never did. It can be both.

 

[Tuskin38]

Shazad Latif is going to be on After Trek tomorrow, so we're probably going to get more Tyler/Voq stuff on tomorrow's episode, only reason I can think why they would have him on.

 

[dahj]

Shazad Latif is going to be on After Trek tomorrow

Will Javid Iqbal be there too?

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Will Javid Iqbal be there too?

Shazad has to "leave" momentarily, then comes back out wearing glasses. No one was the wiser.

 

[KittyHAWK]

That would definitely be crazy creepy if that's the way they "constructed" Ash/put Voq in a human body. Would they have the technology to transplant Voq's consciousness into Ash's body? Isn't it more likely extreme plastic/reconstructive surgery? Or is it even possible to make a Klingon as "small" (relatively speaking) as a human?

I'm curious to see how it all gets revealed. It seems very apparent that Ash doesn't remember that he's Voq so I wonder how he's going to react when Voq's memories come back. I do wonder if L'Rell really raped Ash after he was Ash to give him PTSD/make his memories more authentic, or if he's remembering consensual sex with L'Rell when he was Voq, but misinterpreting it as rape.

Hahah
its so unlike the Klingons to be able to acheive that. Transplant consciousnes? that is the discipliine of psionics - psychic impersonation. Do they have tech for exterme alteration of anatomy and muscle-skeletal structures of a human? it would be pointless if Klingons can do the former. Hardly appear so from those flashbacks. Damn freaking gruesome torture to break him and maybe some possible hynotic suggestions to implant a Voq contruct.

 

[Cyrus]

Will Javid Iqbal be there too?

Shazad said that was the name of his late father and he used it as a tribute to him.

 

[Prax]

Isn't that exactly what they did, though? We haven't met the real Ash. The one we know, is Voq, dramatically surgically altered, stuffed full of human organs, and made to be identical in every way, to the real Ash.

 

[BRT]

On After Trek, Matt asked for clarification if Tyler was turned into Voq or Voq was turned into Tyler. Huh? Was there ever any confusion that Voq became Tyler and not the other way around?

 

[ITDUDE]

Time to take off the spoiler tag from this thread?

 

[Lord Garth]

The former mod in me is kicking in. We might talk about stuff in upcoming episodes that people haven't seen yet. I also think the spoiler policy is for a month (though I could be wrong?) Someone could be discovering Discovery for the first time, they might stumble into this, and then the next several episodes (including this half of the season) are spoiled.

 

[F. King Daniel]

On After Trek, Matt asked for clarification if Tyler was turned into Voq or Voq was turned into Tyler. Huh? Was there ever any confusion that Voq became Tyler and not the other way around?

My mother thinks there is/was a real Ash Tyler whose personality was transplanted into Voq. I disagree, but it's plausible in Trek's world of magical thought-transfer tech

 

[BRT]

My mother thinks there is/was a real Ash Tyler whose personality was transplanted into Voq. I disagree, but it's plausible in Trek's world of magical thought-transfer tech

Wouldn't there HAVE to be a real Ash Tyler? No one seemed to have any questions when he was "rescued" from the Klingons that he was who he said he was. That suggests there was an Ash Tyler in the Starfleet database who had gone missing.

 

[ITDUDE]

Someone could be discovering Discovery for the first time, they might stumble into this, and then the next several episodes (including this half of the season) are spoiled.

A month is a good period. After that it's tough luck for those joining in late.
It's like for someone who hasn't seen Empire Strikes Back and get spoiled about the end. I take no responsibility if they get spoiled by the biggest reveal in the last 30 years of cinema

 

[Lord Garth]

^ Did you hear Kirk's son gets killed and the Enterprise gets destroyed?! O_O

The crew, they're all fugitives now.

 

[ITDUDE]

^ Did you hear Kirk's son gets killed and the Enterprise gets destroyed?! O_O

The crew, they're all fugitives now.

 

[Tuskin38]

A month is a good period. After that it's tough luck for those joining in late.
It's like for someone who hasn't seen Empire Strikes Back and get spoiled about the end. I take no responsibility if they get spoiled by the biggest reveal in the last 30 years of cinema

It hasn't been a month though, the theory was only proven yesterday.

 

[Tuskin38]

On After Trek, Matt asked for clarification if Tyler was turned into Voq or Voq was turned into Tyler. Huh? Was there ever any confusion that Voq became Tyler and not the other way around?

It was confirmed in an IGN article that The real Tyler was grafted on Voq.
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2018/01/...ylers-journey?abthid=5a5c15c5143251f34c000007

 

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[EnderAKH]

Wouldn't there HAVE to be a real Ash Tyler? No one seemed to have any questions when he was "rescued" from the Klingons that he was who he said he was. That suggests there was an Ash Tyler in the Starfleet database who had gone missing.

Yeah, I agree. In a time of subspace transmissions, its not like they wouldn't declare Tyler no longer missing/captured/dead and transfer Tyler to the Discovery in Starfleet's records. Otherwise when Lorca to got back to the Discovery from the Klingon ship, it would have been "Make this guy my new chief of security!" "Sorry, sir, he doesn't exist in Starfleet records. You sure you spelled his name right?" "Aw hell."

 

[Top41]

So is it safe to assume the real Tyler (or his body) is dead? That all that's left of the real Tyler is what was grafted onto Voq?

I'm really curious to see what happens going forward. Because in the episode it seemed like Voq completely took over once he was triggered, but I wonder if going forward Ash's personality--the part that is presumably in love with Michael--is going to be in conflict with Voq or if Voq is just totally going to dominate.

Also, are we to assume that the rape memories were Ash misinterpreting consensual sex between Voq and L'Rell, or was L'Rell raping Ash before Voq came along and found a way to basically make her unwilling human lover a real Klingon? I did notice last week she called him "Sweet Tyler" which didn't sound like a Klingon-like endearment at all....