Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg!!!

[Trent Roman]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Xeris said:
there is actually no chance of seeing a Voyager novel until early 09 at the earliest - once we know who has survived the Great Knife Catastrophe.

Actually, Destiny is set at the furthest point in current Trek continuity, several years after the events of the VOY-R, so who (if anybody) dies is not an issue. The lack of VOY books is simply... well, a lack of VOY books (though I'm sure anniversary-a-thon didn't help).

Posted by Baerbel:
I welcomed J/C but then it was dropped like a hot potato. Suddenly Janeway had the idea that all she is entitled to, being a female captain, is a holographic lover! I found it sick. I found it very insulting. After everything that happened, after having returned, coming back to J/C is very difficult if you want to make it believable.

I was glad when they put an end to the sexual tension between Janeway and Chakotay. Not only was there no chemistry (Robert Beltran in love... ugh), but it was terribly cliché to have the female and male leads looking as though they're going to pair up, when one considers how many TV shows and films do exactly that. Sisko and Kira didn't need to shack up, why would Janeway and Chakotay?

However, I should point out that one of the first things the VOY-R did was drop that left-field romance between Chakotay and Seven, and there have been many hints in the VOY-R and Distant Shores about a potential rekindling. So it's not a dead issue, much as I would like it to be.

Finally, I really don't get the hate for the holographic sex toy (apart from that silly, 'no changing the man' thing. He's a simple hologram, not a sentient! Would you refrain from adjusting the settings on a vibrator because you don't want to hurt its feelings? Sheesh.). Janeway's a woman who feels isolated by the pressures of command, particularly since all potential mates are also crewmembers under her command (which often complicates things). I don't begrudge a lonely woman her outlet. Hell, if I had access to a holodeck, you can bet I'd be using it for sexual recreation...

It sold well, at least the first two books. Another question is how much people liked what they bought.

Yep. I bought the first two books, so I'm part of those 'good sales' the initial VOY-R duology garnered. I hated the VOY-R (as forum regulars are no doubt tired of hearing).

Also, you have to find writers who like to write Voyager. I think the best candidates to do that are writers who liked watching Voyager. PAD is certainly not a Voyager fan. I don`t think I ever read a comment by a professional writer admitting that they really enjoyed the series. I don`t think there is another Christie Golden around the corner. Of course also writers who don`t like a series can write good stories with such characters. To me, Voyager is so frustrating – I can see so much potential there that wasn`t used for one reason or the other.

This, I don't buy for a second. I'm sure there are tons of writers out there (and not just the established Pocket stable) who'd leap at a chance to write for Voyager. I know I would.

Posted by Christopher:
Except there was no reason why Kirk had to do that. Admirals can command missions. There's no reason Kirk couldn't have just taken the Enterprise out against V'ger under his flag as an admiral with Decker as the captain. Indeed, he did essentially that in TWOK, with Spock as the captain. And if you want to cite precedent, that admiral/captain arrangement seemed to work pretty well on Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea for several seasons.

For that matter, there's Lit Trek precedent in that Admiral Nechayev uses the Sovereign as her flagship.

Posted by LightningStorm:
The stopper is that this series unlike all of the others completely and utterly wrapped up and finished the entire premise of the show. TOS, TNG, and ENT's premises were simple. Explore the unknown. This can be carried on damned-near forever. DS9's premise (before the whole war arc) was assist Bajor's recovering from the occupation, have a post at the wormhole, explore the gamma quadrant. This too can be carried on for a very long time (really until the station is destroyed and/or Bajor is destroyed and/or the wormhole closes up permanently -- so basically never). Voyager however entire premise was around a ship lost far away from home trying to get home and all the bumps and bruises they endure along the way. Well they go home, premise complete. So Voyager needs a new premise.

Voyager could, at first, simply have followed through on what occured in the series. I mean, they arrived at Earth equipped with state-of-the-art Borg-fighting technology nearly a quarter-century in advance. Imagine what that does to the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant! Tensions surrounding the Federation's sudden military advantage would have made the perfect reason why relations with the Romulans frosted over between DS9 and NEM.

I do! I see quite clearly why he'd do that. Simply put, Mothers don't own the monopoly on putting their family before their career, fathers can too. And in a world where money isn't even in the equation at all, the idea of him being a "bread winner" doesn't apply as it might in today's world. And for the record this is not an idea I think originated in the Relaunch novels, but was expanded upon based on the TV show. I recall a scene where Tom was telling Harry that he has responsibilities now as a father and husband and can't go off doing the fun things on a whim. This to me says Paris realized it's time to become a responsible adult, and if that means shucking the fly-boy attitude (along with the actual flying it entails) then so be it.

I quite agree. Tom Paris isn't any kind of idealist, other than the occasional water world. He's a person whose loyalties lie with friends and family, not organizations. I don't see why, with a new family, he would want to continue in Starfleet, to the extent of abandoning Torres and Miral on Boreth; I certainly don't see why he would seek promotion, when, if anything, the XO has a more dangerous job (leading away teams) then the pilot (although I trust in Paris' ability to find trouble no matter what chair he sits in, really). Just one of the inexplicable mischaracterizations in the VOY-R that makes you wonder if Golden was watching the same TV show you were.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Christopher]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

AuntKate said:
I didn't mean to insult the editors; I should have said that it appears to those of us who love Voyager that the editors have failed to use their imaginations to keep the crew together and have definitely ignored the series when it comes to books.

First, I don't agree that keeping the crew exactly as they were before is somehow more imaginative than finding something fresh to do with them. Second, it is totally untrue that they have ignored the series. You continue to make the false and judgmental assumption that the only possible reason for the lack of books is deliberate neglect, and that's just grossly ignorant about all the factors that affect the scheduling and production of books. There has been as much VGR fiction over the past few years as circumstances permitted.

Since Golden's relauch, we had String Theory, three novels in a series that came out in June 2005, October 2006, and February 2006.

That would be October '05, but yes, that fits what I said about books coming out in '05 and '06.

I adored Distant Shores, which came out in November 2005, but it was a collection of short stories, not a novel.

And it takes more editorial and authorial effort to produce an anthology than it does to produce a single novel. So if you're claiming it somehow counts less as evidence of editorial interest in VGR because it isn't a novel, you're getting it completely backward.

To claim that the short 1/3 of the Mirror Universe Mirror Scaled Serpent was a true "exploration" of the Voyager characters is just a little bit out there.

I made no such claim. I didn't need to. You didn't say there had been no "true explorations of Voyager characters" in years -- you said there had been no Voyager NOVELS in years, period. And that was an untruth. There has been at least one VGR novel published every year since 2002.

Now, lets look at the other examples. The Rihannsu series spans many years, that's true. Were there NO OTHER TOS NOVELS during that timeframe? Nope.

Irrelevant. I'm pointing out that publishing is not a clockwork business, that delays can arise for any number of reasons, and that each situation poses unique challenges. So you have no right to make these judgmental assumptions about the motives of the editors just because there's been a delay. You simply don't know enough about the situation to make a fair judgment. And I'm telling you this as someone who does know the situation and knows that you are wrong in many of your assumptions about what's going on behind the scenes. As you'll find out when the editors are finally ready to announce their VGR plans.

 

[JD]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

AuntKate said:

Counting Christie Golden's books, there have been five VOY novels, one story collection, and one-third of a Mirror Universe book published since June 2003. In that same timeframe, there have been about 12 DS9 books, 7 ENT books, 11 TNG books, and 16 TOS books.

In my mind, that's inexcusable, for any reason. But, that's just my opinion.

See that doesn't work because what you are talking about are more or less 7 different series, not four. IMO you shouldn't compare the number of all DS9 books, ENT books, or TNG book with the number of Voyager Relaunch books because IMO the main series and the Relaunches are more or less seperate series. So if you work that way there have been only 1 DS9 book, 1 TNG book, and no new ENT books since their respective Relaunches began, meanwhile there have been 3 Voyager books. So if you look at it that way VOY has actually had it pretty good.

Just out of curiosity AuntKate, do you like any Trek other than Voyager? Because if so you should really check out some of the other series books, you might find that you don't miss Voyager as much that way. Especially Titan, which features Tuvok as one of it's main characters.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Christopher said:
Except there was no reason why Kirk had to do that. Admirals can command missions.

Exactly. I said much the same thing on a thread in the TNG forum regarding whether or not Picard would accept a promotion to Rear-Admiral. Most of the objections surrounded his not wanting to give up command because "Admirals don't command Starships and just do a lot of paperwork" or some nonsense. There is even precedence in TOS for Flag Officers being Starship commanders: Commodore Decker and Commodore Wesley.

(Personally, I suspect the only reason Kirk got demoted for the V'ger mission was because it was the tradeoff/penalty for getting Nogura's permission to take command. Otherwise, he could've stayed an admiral. And I know that's not the explanation I gave in Ex Machina, but I've had more time to think about it since.)

That makes a lot of sense & is very similar to my own thoughts on the subject. I hate to say, but I don't recall how you addressed that in Ex Machina (its been a while since I read it), could you refresh my memory? Thanks!

 

[KRAD]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I considered responding to the complaints made by AuntKate and Octavia, but I was very very reluctant to, for this reason:

The lack of Voyager books simply shows that the editors at Pocket books have 1) a limited imagination and 2) a prejudice against Voyager.

Frankly, I'm completely confused and dismayed at the editors' seeming ignorance of the Voyager reader base.

it has literally been YEARS since a Voyager novel was produced.

it IS wrong and an insult to the series to "break them up" so that the editors and writers can abuse and insult the characters through uneven and slanted character development.

Why should I believe that motives are pure when I no longer trust in the competence of the people producing this drek?

That means NO MORE CRAPPY WRITING!

I'm perfectly happy to engage in a discussion about the Trek line. I'm not willing to participate in an insult-fest. Everything I quoted was either a) an insult or b) a lie.

You want to complain about the work, that's one thing. Insulting the people producing it, however, is a different kettle of fish.

Having said that, I do want to point out a thing or two.

Both AuntKate and Octavia took pains to point out that the Voyager fanbase is predominantly female, as if this makes it different from the rest of the Trek fanbase. First of all, it doesn't. All the Treks have had a significant female fanbase. Secondly, the editor in charge of the book under discussion is Margaret Clark.

I was also amused that Octavia was complaining about the death of Janeway in the same post that she was complaining that there should be no reset buttons. Not to put too fine a point on it, but killing off an opening-credits regular on one of the series makes it pretty clear that there is no reset button, and if the character is revived in some way, it's a huge reset button to put "Year of Hell" to shame. You can't have it both ways.

 

[AuntKate]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Christopher said:Irrelevant. I'm pointing out that publishing is not a clockwork business, that delays can arise for any number of reasons, and that each situation poses unique challenges. So you have no right to make these judgmental assumptions about the motives of the editors just because there's been a delay. You simply don't know enough about the situation to make a fair judgment. And I'm telling you this as someone who does know the situation and knows that you are wrong in many of your assumptions about what's going on behind the scenes. As you'll find out when the editors are finally ready to announce their VGR plans.

Respectfully, you're missing my point. My point was that while there was a delay in those series of books, other books were published, many of them, in the interim--but not in the case of Voyager. And you're right, I don't know about the specific situation. I'm just a fan and a one-time avid reader who is tired of hearing the same old tired excuses to explain away or justify the dearth of Voyager novels. It's unfair and, from my point of view, there is no sense of urgency to "make it right." You're right I'm judgmental about it--because I think I represent a vast number of frustrated fans who simply think it's time to rectify this imbalance.

JD said:See that doesn't work because what you are talking about are more or less 7 different series, not four. IMO you shouldn't compare the number of all DS9 books, ENT books, or TNG book with the number of Voyager Relaunch books because IMO the main series and the Relaunches are more or less seperate series. So if you work that way there have been only 1 DS9 book, 1 TNG book, and no new ENT books since their respective Relaunches began, meanwhile there have been 3 Voyager books. So if you look at it that way VOY has actually had it pretty good.

Yeah, I've been unfair. VOY had three non-relaunch books (albeit one story) while DS9 and TNG fans only had one each. I don't know though. Maybe those fans were able to ease their pain with the 11 DS9 relaunch novels or the 10 TNG relaunch novels while we lucky Voy fans got to read and reread our 3-part String Theory books ad nauseum. Dunno. I think I'd trade places with either series in a heartbeat. You see, I don't think fans care whether it's a relaunch or not--they just want books, whether novels or short story collections, about their favorite series. It's impossible to deny that Voyager has gotten the short end of the stick.

Trent Roman said:I was glad when they put an end to the sexual tension between Janeway and Chakotay. Not only was there no chemistry (Robert Beltran in love... ugh), but it was terribly cliché to have the female and male leads looking as though they're going to pair up, when one considers how many TV shows and films do exactly that. Sisko and Kira didn't need to shack up, why would Janeway and Chakotay?

Hmmm. I have to disagree here. I think there are many instances where that sort of unresolved sexual tension sends the ratings higher--no matter how many times it's used. There are many examples to point to, including Moonlighting, The X Files, and Lois and Clark, to look at more recent times--with the understanding that the relationship stay unresolved. Lois and Clark pretty much jumped the shark once the two leads were married. But a speculation about the "closeness" of the J/C friendship and a few nicely placed hints and clues could have been a great boost to show. An example of that from the books is the stellar novelization of "Equinox" by Diane Carey, who does a wonderful job of hinting at the intimacy of the command team's friendship and the high level of trust they share. That the relationship between other captains and their execs didn't go in that direction is no reason not to exploit the chemistry that I saw between the two characters, especially if it helps sell soap.

And, yes, JD, I started watching TOS in 1966 and was a rabid TNG fan for years until Voyager came along. In fact, TNG is probably my second favorite behind Voyager (only because I put TOS in a category all its own).

I'll echo an earlier poster's comment. I'm a died-in-the-wool, true-blue Trek fan who went to two conventions last year alone. I used to love the Trek books, and I have bought every one of the Voyager ones and dozens of the TNG, as well. If I've stopped buying Trek books, it signifies a serious problem that the editors at Pocket Books should take to heart.

I want Voyager books, and I'm angry that I have to wait another year to get one--especially when my favorite characters are being siphoned off and killed in other series' books instead of having their own adventures in books that focus on Voyager.

Rant over.

 

[AuntKate]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

KRAD said:
I considered responding to the complaints made by AuntKate and Octavia, but I was very very reluctant to, for this reason:

The lack of Voyager books simply shows that the editors at Pocket books have 1) a limited imagination and 2) a prejudice against Voyager.

Frankly, I'm completely confused and dismayed at the editors' seeming ignorance of the Voyager reader base.

it has literally been YEARS since a Voyager novel was produced.

it IS wrong and an insult to the series to "break them up" so that the editors and writers can abuse and insult the characters through uneven and slanted character development.

Why should I believe that motives are pure when I no longer trust in the competence of the people producing this drek?

That means NO MORE CRAPPY WRITING!

I'm perfectly happy to engage in a discussion about the Trek line. I'm not willing to participate in an insult-fest. Everything I quoted was either a) an insult or b) a lie.

You want to complain about the work, that's one thing. Insulting the people producing it, however, is a different kettle of fish.

Having said that, I do want to point out a thing or two.

Both AuntKate and Octavia took pains to point out that the Voyager fanbase is predominantly female, as if this makes it different from the rest of the Trek fanbase. First of all, it doesn't. All the Treks have had a significant female fanbase. Secondly, the editor in charge of the book under discussion is Margaret Clark.

I was also amused that Octavia was complaining about the death of Janeway in the same post that she was complaining that there should be no reset buttons. Not to put too fine a point on it, but killing off an opening-credits regular on one of the series makes it pretty clear that there is no reset button, and if the character is revived in some way, it's a huge reset button to put "Year of Hell" to shame. You can't have it both ways.

I don't mean to insult anyone, I'm just telling you what the editors look like from out here in "reader land." Aren't the editors responsible for which books are published and what plots are approved? If someone else is, I'll gladly shift my attention to them. You see, I am the customer and I'm under the impression that the editors want me to buy their books. So I'm telling you, straight out, what I think. It's cool that Trek writers post here, and I'm not trying to insult anyone who writes. I'm glad for you. I'm just calling it as I see it--Voyager has been neglected and its characters have been appropriated into other series' books. Frankly, I've had enough.

I'm blaming the people in charge. As far as I'm concerned, they're responsible.



BTW, not all of those quotes above are mine. I'd really appreciate it if you would please distinguish between two people when quoting. Thanks.

 

[KRAD]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^ You're missing my point -- I wasn't complaining about what you and Octavia said, it's how you said it. It's perfectly possible to express one's distaste for a line of fiction without saying that the editors are incompetent, ignorant, prejudiced, and have limited imaginations, and that the writers are crappy and slanted.

I do apologize for lumping both of your quotes together, but I read them all at once, and the aggregate effect of seeing my friends and colleagues being personally maligned was considerable.

Like I said, take the work to task all you want. TrentRoman has expended considerable pixels on the subject of why he hates Homecoming, The Farther Shore, and Spirit Walk, but never once in any of those diatribes has he ever directly insulted Christie herself.

That's what I take issue with -- the veering into personal insults.

And BTW, thanks for adding the caveat about respect to the author of The Mirror-Scaled Serpent, since that author is me. I'm perversely proud of my record of writing several Voyager stories that don't take place in the Delta Quadrant.........

 

[Christopher]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

AuntKate said:
Respectfully, you're missing my point. My point was that while there was a delay in those series of books, other books were published, many of them, in the interim--but not in the case of Voyager.

You keep twisting the facts by referring to a lack of post-finale VGR fiction as a lack of VGR fiction, period. That is a categorical falsehood, and Keith is right: if you can't be bothered to formulate your assertions in honest terms, there's no use trying to have a discussion with you.

It's impossible to deny that Voyager has gotten the short end of the stick.

And if that were all you'd said, I wouldn't disagree. For a variety of reasons, post-finale VGR fiction has been slow in coming for a few years. And that's too bad. But you went beyond that by trying to place blame, by accusing the editors of incompetence or malice just because they didn't give you what you wanted. That is not a healthy or constructive way to address a grievance.

 

[AuntKate]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

KRAD, The last two quotes in your list aren't mine, so please don't think of me when you read them. The others, I'll take the blame for--even though they seem a bit more extreme than I thought they were when I see them out of context. If one of the first four quotes strikes you as personal rather than professional, then I owe everyone an apology. I'm passionate about this particular subject and tend to resort to purple prose once I get up a full head of steam. Sorry.

If I didn't like to read Trek books, I wouldn't be posting about this. I wouldn't care one way or the other. But I do care, and I know that I speak for a lot of fans who are too intimidated to speak up or who have just given up altogether and turned to fanfic for their Voyager fix instead of the books. That's a loss of revenue. That's a problem. Why not publish more Voy books that take place in the DQ? I've almost worn out my copy of Distant Shores, and I think "Brief Candle" is one of the best Trek stories I've ever read, bar none. So congrats on that!

This is my plea . . . oh, forget it. You KNOW what it is!

 

[KRAD]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^ Thanks, but I didn't write "Brief Candle." That was Christopher.

I wrote "Letting Go," the story focused on the folks left behind in the AQ when Voyager fell down the rabbit hole. I also wrote The Brave and the Bold Book 2 (the Voyager part of which took place prior to "Caretaker"), and The Mirror-Scaled Serpent, which was an MU story in which Kes and Neelix wind up trapped in the AQ.

 

[AuntKate]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Christopher said:

AuntKate said:
Respectfully, you're missing my point. My point was that while there was a delay in those series of books, other books were published, many of them, in the interim--but not in the case of Voyager.

You keep twisting the facts by referring to a lack of post-finale VGR fiction as a lack of VGR fiction, period. That is a categorical falsehood, and Keith is right: if you can't be bothered to formulate your assertions in honest terms, there's no use trying to have a discussion with you.

It's impossible to deny that Voyager has gotten the short end of the stick.

And if that were all you'd said, I wouldn't disagree. For a variety of reasons, post-finale VGR fiction has been slow in coming for a few years. And that's too bad. But you went beyond that by trying to place blame, by accusing the editors of incompetence or malice just because they didn't give you what you wanted. That is not a healthy or constructive way to address a grievance.

I am not twisting anything. I don't care whether VOY novels are post-Endgame or not. All I'm saying is that there have been fewer Voyager books printed of any kind since 2003 than for any other series, and I even provided figures to show that it's true. I would think that the editors would be more equitable in making sure all series get a novel now and then--wouldn't you? I want more Voyager books, post-Endgame, DQ, I don't care. Period.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

AuntKate said:
If I've stopped buying Trek books, it signifies a serious problem that the editors at Pocket Books should take to heart.

On the other hand, I had stopped buying Trek books completely in the 90's because they had become so nausiatingly bland, and only came back when the current editorial practices started (consistant continuities between series, and on-going storylines). I would drop Trek books in a heartbeat if that ever changed back to the way things were in the pre-DS9-R days.

You obviously can't please everyone, and respectfully, I believe you are in the minority here. For my part, I consider Marco and co-horts as the heir-apparents to the title of "Great Bird" (Much moreso than J.J. Abrams ever will be and more than Rick Berman ever was). Trek books, and indeed Trek itself, has never been better thanks to the current book-line.

 

[AuntKate]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

KRAD said:
^ Thanks, but I didn't write "Brief Candle." That was Christopher.

I wrote "Letting Go," the story focused on the folks left behind in the AQ when Voyager fell down the rabbit hole. I also wrote The Brave and the Bold Book 2 (the Voyager part of which took place prior to "Caretaker"), and The Mirror-Scaled Serpent, which was an MU story in which Kes and Neelix wind up trapped in the AQ.

Then kudos to Christopher for a really fine story! I keep my copy of the book by the tub (blush). Since my hubby has gone to bed, I couldn't fetch it to check for sure. Your story was the "Mark" story, then. I thought the treatment of his relationship with the captain was real and touching, and I really felt sorry for him as he grieved and finally moved on.

I can't really complain about the Voyager novels I've read. I just want to read more, that's all.

 

[KRAD]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Your story was the "Mark" story, then. I thought your treatment of his relationship with the captain was real and touching, and I really felt sorry for him as he grieved and finally moved on.

Thanks! :thumbsup:

 

[Christopher]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

AuntKate said:
I am not twisting anything. I don't care whether VOY novels are post-Endgame or not. All I'm saying is that there have been fewer Voyager books printed of any kind since 2003 than for any other series, and I even provided figures to show that it's true.

That is not all you are saying. Go back and read your own post. You said, and I quote, "it has literally been YEARS since a Voyager novel was produced." That is a false statement. You then repeated that falsehood: "other books were published, many of them, in the interim--but not in the case of Voyager." And that repetition, even after you had been corrected, made it an egregiously false statement. And now you're making another factually incorrect statement by claiming you were saying something else when the facts clearly show otherwise. So you're either lying or scuttling your own credibility by failing to express yourself carefully enough. Either way, if you make false statements, we have to respond to what you say, not what you might putatively have meant to say.

I would think that the editors would be more equitable in making sure all series get a novel now and then--wouldn't you? I want more Voyager books, post-Endgame, DQ, I don't care. Period.

In a perfect world, sure, that would be good. But this isn't a perfect world. Delays happen, often unpredictably. Plans have to be juggled. You can't churn out books on an assembly line, not if you want them to be any good. Sometimes getting them right takes time. There will be more VGR books, there are plans in the works right now, but you just need to have some patience.

 

[AuntKate]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^^
I stand corrected. There have been books published since the last VOY Relaunch book. Better?

I've been patient. Two long years with nothing is too long, so I've decided to be a squeaky wheel for a bit. Take it as a compliment--I like Voyager books!

 

[William Leisner]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^ Yeah, I used to compliment my mother's baking all the time by whining, "I wanna cookie! I want one, I want one, I want one!" for hours on end...

 

[AuntKate]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^ I'm betting she let you have it, too. I know I would.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Wow, this is a long and interesting discussion. If I would try to pick out individual postings, cut and paste quotes and insert my comments, it would give me a bad headache and I am not very good at that anyway. I am writing some comments referring to what I have found after I went to bed yesterday.

It is good to know that there are plans for more Voyager books, also books that take the series, the characters forward after the four Voyager Relaunch novels. I wish I could say more but obviously, until at least the first Destiny book is out, nothing will be revealed what is planned beyond. It seems whatever happens in Destiny will be huge and affect everything. On the one hand, this is exciting. It could be great! On the other hand, it makes me nervous. If I don`t like whatever huge thing/s will be introduced in that trilogy, it would spoil and spill into so many series and aspects. Not having any idea what Destiny is about and if the hype will even be justified, I am left with very mixed feelings.

I understand AuntKate. Each time I am coming here or to Psi Phi I am hoping to finally find some news when the next NF novel will be out. I am patient and I understand that the wonderful variety we have nowadays in Star Trek also means that this is one reason why we readers can`t have everything as quickly sometimes as we would like. As long as I know that NF will continue, I am happy although when I finally will be able to hold a new NF novel in my hand, I will be even more happy.

I want to say something more about J/C. Why do so many TV shows have a male and female lead where there is a strong attraction that can lead from being “just” friends to a certain level of sexual attraction up to being an outright couple? It is because many viewers enjoy a good team in which a man and a woman complement each other. To me, that is a selling point. I had no interest in Bones until I read a discussion about this series on this board. The comments I read about the main characters, the way they are written and how they interact with each other made me buy the first boxed set although I never watched any Bones before. I loved it! I am a big fan now and I have turned my husband into a fan, too.

This made J/C special. It was still just hinted at for the most time, but the potential was there in Voyager. Just look at the rest of Star Trek that existed at that time. There was nothing comparable in TOS and TNG. Also in DS9, I wouldn`t compare Sisko and Kira with J/C. It didn`t feel the same to me. I like Sisko and I also like Kira. They are good friends but, no, I don`t think there was ever a special attraction between them.

When J/C appeared, there was the potential to start something brave and fresh in Star Trek, something so different to what I remember Kirk having said, something like he is married to the ship. New Frontier was ground breaking at its time when there was a relationship between Captain and First Officer on the same ship. From there, books got much bolder and having relationships on board is nothing unusual any more. We even have a captain married to a counsellor on the same ship (Titan) and an intimate relationship between captain and his CMO now (TNG Relaunch).

But books are not “canon”. Yes, of course J/C was controversial. The idea of having relationships on board is controversial. But because Voyager is what it is, the series would have been ideal to explore this, looking at various attitudes, various problems but also the strengths and advantages of such relationships. It didn`t happen because whoever was responsible for the direction of Voyager lacked the courage to do it. I would have loved more J/C. Part of it is, I am a romantic at heart and enjoy a good love story but it would also have been very interesting if the authors and producers would have been brave and bold, challenging the viewers to think about such aspects.
Voyager could have been something special. Dropping J/C was a wasted opportunity, one of so many.

About the hololover, if the series would have been written in a way that this artificial holo construction was indeed nothing else but a sex toy, it would at least be better than what we were left to believe, that Janeway cared for him like for a real life, flesh and blood lover.

It rubbed me the wrong way when it was mentioned that it was right that Paris shucked the fly-boy attitude. Paris loves flying. I don`t think it is right to belittle that with vocabulary like “fly-boy”. It also doesn`t mean that pilots are less responsible than other Starfleet officers with other jobs. Paris is passionate about flying, which is something beautiful, something to be encouraged, like when engineers are passionate about what happens in the engine room. Of course also Paris, the pilot, can be a responsible family man. When I read one day that Paris will want to introduce his daughter to what he loves, I will welcome it very much and feel with him. It also makes me happy when my daughter enjoys something I love, something we can share.

OK, enough for now. The posting is long enough already.