Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg!!!

[William Leisner]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

kimc said:
I really don't get the Janeway hate myself. Mulgrew had an interesting take on it at a convention last summer.

It's really too bad that Mulgrew seems to have taken it personally, as it sounds like, because she was never the problem. The problem, IMHO, was that the producers and writing staff (primarily men, btw) couldn't write her character in a consistent or consistently interesting way.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

William Leisner said:
It's really too bad that Mulgrew seems to have taken it personally, as it sounds like, because she was never the problem. The problem, IMHO, was that the producers and writing staff (primarily men, btw) couldn't write her character in a consistent or consistently interesting way.

I would have to agree. I was never a Voyager fan, but I loved the premise and generally enjoyed her portrayal of Janeway, despite the substandard writing and inconsistent characterization.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

William Leisner said:
The problem, IMHO, was that the producers and writing staff (primarily men, btw) couldn't write her character in a consistent or consistently interesting way.

The head of the writing staff for the first four seasons was Jeri Taylor, and she put a lot of herself into Janeway. Taylor's Janeway was a pretty well-drawn, consistent, interesting character. It was after Taylor left and Braga took over the showrunner position that Janeway's characterization became shallower and more erratic.

 

[William Leisner]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Christopher said:

William Leisner said:
The problem, IMHO, was that the producers and writing staff (primarily men, btw) couldn't write her character in a consistent or consistently interesting way.

The head of the writing staff for the first four seasons was Jeri Taylor, and she put a lot of herself into Janeway. Taylor's Janeway was a pretty well-drawn, consistent, interesting character. It was after Taylor left and Braga took over the showrunner position that Janeway's characterization became shallower and more erratic.

While I admittedly have not seen much of the early Voyager episodes since their initial network run (nor the later eps, to be honest), Janeway never impressed me as a solid, consistent character, no matter who was running the show.

And, to be fair, she's not the only one who failed to do so. It says something when the most interesting character on a TV series is technically just an illusion...

 

[Holytomato]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Janeway killed Tuvix. Enough said.

"It was after Taylor left and Braga took over the showrunner position that Janeway's characterization became shallower and more erratic."

Shhhh...Braga is GOD tm.

oh...my...

"Star Trek XI should be Post Nemesis! Bring Back Voyager! "

:BANG:

Whoooa...dude...what was I smoking?

 

[Trent Roman]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Judging from that post? You.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Holytomato said:
Janeway killed Tuvix. Enough said.

You know, I would have killed Tuvix, too, so that two others may live again. As nice as Tuvix was, his birth killed two other lives.

I'd love to see you explaining, on Janeway's behalf, to the whole Alpha Quadrant, how she let Tuvix live and essentially ended Tuvok and Neelix's chances to live normal long lives.

Just as well for you that Tuvok's stoic Vulcan family would understand it was the logical thing to do, and that Neelix's Delta Quadrant family members are all dead!

What if the combined entity was made up of Tom Paris and Naomi Wildman, for example? How could Janeway have left them to a combined fate, and having to tell Admiral Paris, and Naomi's Dad, why she left them combined. Not to mention having to live in the same ship as Samantha Wildman and B'Elanna Torres.

 

[kimc]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Christopher said:

William Leisner said:
The problem, IMHO, was that the producers and writing staff (primarily men, btw) couldn't write her character in a consistent or consistently interesting way.

The head of the writing staff for the first four seasons was Jeri Taylor, and she put a lot of herself into Janeway. Taylor's Janeway was a pretty well-drawn, consistent, interesting character. It was after Taylor left and Braga took over the showrunner position that Janeway's characterization became shallower and more erratic.

I agree.

Therin of Andor said:

Holytomato said:
Janeway killed Tuvix. Enough said.

You know, I would have killed Tuvix, too, so that two others may live again. As nice as Tuvix was, his birth killed two other lives.

I'd love to see you explaining, on Janeway's behalf, to the whole Alpha Quadrant, how she let Tuvix live and essentially ended Tuvok and Neelix's chances to live normal long lives.

Just as well for you that Tuvok's stoic Vulcan family would understand it was the logical thing to do, and that Neelix's Delta Quadrant family members are all dead!

What if the combined entity was made up of Tom Paris and Naomi Wildman, for example? How could Janeway have left them to a combined fate, and having to tell Admiral Paris, and Naomi's Dad, why she left them combined. Not to mention having to live in the same ship as Samantha Wildman and B'Elanna Torres.

To add to that consider if you were one of those who got melded. What would you have wanted Janeway to do?

 

[Bobatiel]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Overall I really like the new characters and and all the character threads of the "new" TNG.

I found Resisitance and Q&A to be too unoriginal in resuing the Borg and Q yet again, but I did love what the authors did with all of the TNG characters. In particular I really like the T'Lana character. The ultimate Vulcan beyotch. It's so fun read her interacting with Picard and Worf.

I was suprised that I liked Before Dishoonr so much. I like the whole thing, mutiny, Borg evolution and especially the Seven/Spock dynamic not to mention the surprise ending.

I look forward to more "new" TNG.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I finished it last week and enjoyed most of it. I never bought the Kadohata and Leybenzon mustiny though. T'Lana...yeah I can see that doing it. That was my least favorite part of the novel. Nothing else really bothered me. I loved the whole eating of Pluto.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Jack Bauer said:
I finished it last week and enjoyed most of it. I never bought the Kadohata and Leybenzon mustiny though. T'Lana...yeah I can see that doing it. That was my least favorite part of the novel. Nothing else really bothered me. I loved the whole eating of Pluto.

I would have to agree with that assessment. I just read this book and, for the most part, enjoyed it. I think it would have been far stronger without the mutiny though. Initial disagreements with Picard wishing to disobey orders were well founded and he seemed to agree. However, by the time he chose to actually disobey orders it had been readily established that obeying orders would have been a suicide mission. Mutiny at this point was illogical. Of course, much of T'Lana's behavior was illogical. Her certainty and self-righteous behavior seemed to reek of illogic to me, unless PAD was trying to tie her into the mass mis-characterization of the Vulcans in ENT. I'll never understand how someone with such poor interpersonal skills could have gotten a job as a counselor...

 

[Octavia]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I'm sorry to bump this, but I've been out of Trek fandom for a while and need to know. I liked Voyager, believe it or not, and Janeway was one of my favourite chaarcters, atrocious writing aside (tv series and books are guilty here). I can't help but note the lack of Voyager books out there, although since I stopped reading them myself after that appalling relaunch I can't blame anyone else for not wanting them either. (Holding up the enormous suspension of disbelief required to accept that philosopher-suddenly-turned-plant scientist Mark Johnson had one of the only kids in the whole goddam galaxy to chew on a bit of Borg debris squashed me so far into the centre of the Earth that I've only just managed to tunnel back to the surface again...)

Now while I don't want to turn this into a rant as to the apparent inability of Voyager writers to produce anything that a) doesn't have Borg and b) doesn't have plot holes I could drive a truck through and c) doesn't suck - I still love the damn series and hearing of "Before Dishonour" only yesterday gave me something of a shock.

I haven't read the damn thing yet (and am not convinced it's worth buying, given recent attempts) but I have a couple of questions. Please don't worry about spoiling me!

Firstly, is Janeway really dead because of another bloody Borg encounter? Cause if she is, I won't bother getting the book, and will sink back out of fandom again. Poor writing and overused plot devices drove me away from Trek, and more of the same is not gonna win me back. Especially when it kills off my favourite character! I mean, fuck me. Take Harry Kim, why don't you!

If she is, my paranoid mind wonders if is a deliberate attempt to rid TPTB of the need to continue the Voyager relaunch. Which would be a mercy in a way, so I'm in two minds about that. It'd be bloody hard to carry on a relaunch when the main character is dead, and despite the fact that some people don't like her, I'm almost positive that I recall her being seen as one of the favourite Voyager characters by Paramount.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

How dead Janeway is, that is a good question. I don`t think there is any doubt that her body was destroyed, which means she is dead, but on the other hand one of the Q was with her and a lot of “destiny” hints were sprinkled into that chapter – who knows?

I can imagine, if you are a Janeway fan, the way PAD wrote her won`t be to your liking. I think he was accurate but he made no effort to be diplomatic towards Janeway fans. I think he was blunt but he was honest. He showed her arrogance and stubbornness but he also showed how brave and strong Janeway can be. I am not a Janeway fan but nevertheless, I wouldn`t have killed her. (I just want to emphasize that killing Janeway – no matter how dead she is at the end of “Before Dishonor” – came from Pocket Books editors, not PAD himself) If you really want to do it, PAD gave her a noble death, sacrificing herself for saving countless people from the Borg.

On the other hand, PAD`s novel should make Seven fans happy. At least I think PAD wrote her very well indeed, touching many aspects of her character. I enjoyed these parts of the book very much.

The way PAD wrote the Borg is very much typical for him. I think he wrote the Borg very well and introduced some interesting aspects. Others think it was ridiculous and over the top. I think it very much depends if you like PAD`s style or not.

My opinion is, it won`t work to introduce a Voyager Relaunch in which all Voyager characters or most of them find themselves on a new vessel and going on new adventures. I think the way forward is having more novels like “Before Dishonor”, meaning mixing Voyager characters together with other series.

 

[Octavia]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^I don't mind her being shown with negative characteristics. That she wasn't within screaming distance of perfect made her more interesting to me.

I'm also upset that - once again - it seems that Voyager fans get the short end of the stick. If you simply must kill her, at least do it in one last Voyager book! But no... let's just tack her death into another series. She was only one of the five Trek captains, and the only woman, so what does it matter? Christ, but the attempts at character and plotting in this series/show piss me off.

I swear, ST has done less for my blood pressure than any other series out there!

Am so annoyed.

Thanks for the answer, though. I appreciate it, if only because it's saving me time and money!

*drops back out of Trek fandom*

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

The way PAD wrote the Borg is very much typical for him. I think he wrote the Borg very well and introduced some interesting aspects. Others think it was ridiculous and over the top. I think it very much depends if you like PAD`s style or not.

Not so sure about that - I like his stuff but thought this was very poor.

 

[Sxottlan]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I haven't posted a reaction to this book because for the most part, everyone else has already expressed the same feelings as I had.

Basically, it's a fun and addictive read, but the instant the book is finished, it falls apart. The constant attempts at witty and sarcastic banter regularly undermine any real moments of tension or terror. Thousands die in space battles, but it's glazed over and then rubbed in our faces when we're told the battle has already been given a name before it's even over, which struck me as rather silly.

It may well have been intended for us to dislike the new bridge officers with that lame mutiny, but I doubt they expected this amount of negative backlash towards Kadohata and Leybenzon. At this point, I find them both irredeemable and would rather they just go. It's annoying too because I was looking forward to seeing a new crew dynamic, especially after it seems like forming a new TNG crew has taken bloody forever (going back to all the shifting around in the A Time To series) and this is what we get? Even prior to BD, I unfortunately found these two incredibly boring. Where's the Xindi when you need them?

Baerbel Haddrell said:
My opinion is, it won`t work to introduce a Voyager Relaunch in which all Voyager characters or most of them find themselves on a new vessel and going on new adventures. I think the way forward is having more novels like “Before Dishonor”, meaning mixing Voyager characters together with other series.

At this point, I think the best way to go would be to split up the Voyager crew among the other series. Maybe if we're lucky, Seven will join the TNG crew. While it may not be desirable to replicate any previous relationship dynamic, she'd be a good substitute for Data.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I didn`t feel the same when I read the book. I tend to visualize what I read and I found PAD`s descriptions of what the Borg did, how they changed very chilling. The sense of terror was certainly tangible. I can only say, it worked for me even if it didn`t for everyone. I don`t think a long description of the actual battle was needed. I think that there was already a name for it before it finished, it only underlines how desperate that battle was and that it was obvious before it even started that it would be at least on the same level as in “Best of Both Worlds”, if not bigger and more disastrous.

I couldn`t agree more about the mutiny and the treatment of Kadohata and Leybenzon. As I keep saying, I love this book but minus this aspect. I already learned that these characters, at least these two, will stay around and I also keep saying, some damage control is necessary. I will try to keep an open mind but from where I am standing, this damage control won`t be an easy job. I certainly need much more than the broken record PAD presented, telling us readers about the necessity of following orders no matter what. Or what I got in replies, that in legal terms this wasn`t a mutiny after all.

I am sure that Seven would be a good substitute for Data but this is not something I would support. My question would be, why would Seven want to be Data`s substitute? Let her find her own path.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Sxottlan said:

It may well have been intended for us to dislike the new bridge officers with that lame mutiny, but I doubt they expected this amount of negative backlash towards Kadohata and Leybenzon. At this point, I find them both irredeemable and would rather they just go. It's annoying too because I was looking forward to seeing a new crew dynamic, especially after it seems like forming a new TNG crew has taken bloody forever (going back to all the shifting around in the A Time To series) and this is what we get? Even prior to BD, I unfortunately found these two incredibly boring. Where's the Xindi when you need them?

I read the books that introduced those characters after this. So I think the effect is even worse if you pick this up as a causal reader of trek or just as someone who watched the series and picked up the book, you read it and think "who are those people? why doesn't Picard just fire them out of an airlock and get on with the story?"

They all come across as deeply unlikable and I couldn't make any sense at all (although it's not a major plotpoint) why that Vulcan woman (I forget her name) would be a counselor.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Baerbel Haddrell said:

I am sure that Seven would be a good substitute for Data but this is not something I would support. My question would be, why would Seven want to be Data`s substitute? Let her find her own path.

Is Data going to remain dead? isn't that trump card for pocket to pull out when sales slump or need a shot in the arm.

 

[Trent Roman]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

JoeZhang said:
Is Data going to remain dead? isn't that trump card for pocket to pull out when sales slump or need a shot in the arm.

We've been told by Pocket people that they intend to leave Data dead, in order to preserve the versimilitude of the universe and not cheapen the impact of character deaths. Of course, we've already had Tucker 'resurrected' for ENT, who was about as dead as Data (writers' intent was that he be dead, seemed to be on his way out of film, discussed as dead afterwards, but no body)... so who knows?

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman