Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg!!!

[Steve Roby]

There's very little consistency in overall character, especially with Janeway.

Well, I could try to argue a consistent characterization of Janeway by looking at particular isolated instances, but it wouldn't be a favourable characterization. She damn near tortured an Equinox crew member, she wiped out decades of her established timeline to save just a couple of her crew instead of going back a few years more and saving all of her crew, she abandoned her children (in "Threshold") without a second thought...

But basically I agree wholeheartedly with that post.

 

[KRAD]

she wiped out decades of her established timeline to save just a couple of her crew instead of going back a few years more and saving all of her crew,

Heck, I'd've settled for going back a couple weeks earlier and at least letting Joe Carey's wife and kids get their husband and father back............

 

[kimc]

Oh, no. My opinion isn't "fashionable" at all. I have the same problem with Voyager the TV show that I have always had. It is one of the greatest wastes of potential storytelling I have ever seen. And yes, I kept watching, hoping it would get better. There were gems from time to time, but it also had too many flaws. I have a lot of respect for the actors on the show. But when it comes to the characterizations, it's almost schizophrenic at times. There's very little consistency in overall character, especially with Janeway. With most of the others there's consistency, but she was all over the place as to personality type.

You may not view it as fashionable but the whole "Janeway is inconsistent" and "schizophrenic" seems to be a popular theme. I can't say I've come across any concrete examples as to why she's any more or less so than the other Trek captains though.

 

[kimc]

Well, I could try to argue a consistent characterization of Janeway by looking at particular isolated instances, but it wouldn't be a favourable characterization. She damn near tortured an Equinox crew member, she wiped out decades of her established timeline to save just a couple of her crew instead of going back a few years more and saving all of her crew, she abandoned her children (in "Threshold") without a second thought...

But basically I agree wholeheartedly with that post.

Did what Janeway do in "Equinox" any different from what Archer did in a similar episode? What rights does someone who commits genocide have anyway?

As for "Threshold" Chakotay made the call to leave the lizard babies "in their natural environment" and apparently their father (Paris) didn't have a problem with that either although no one seems to remember that.

I have to agree with your "Endgame" comment though but then I think that episode was a stinker for a variety of reasons.

 

[Steve Roby]

Did what Janeway do in "Equinox" any different from what Archer did in a similar episode?

No, but I don't think much of Archer as a captain or a character, either.

 

[elaithin]

Archer suffers from many of the problems Janeway did, just like the first two seasons of Ent did. By season three and four, however, the writing (and therefore the characters, Archer especially) were much more consistent. Voyager never had that boon.

 

[kimc]

No, but I don't think much of Archer as a captain or a character, either.

Fair enough!

Archer suffers from many of the problems Janeway did, just like the first two seasons of Ent did. By season three and four, however, the writing (and therefore the characters, Archer especially) were much more consistent. Voyager never had that boon.

Never got into Enterprise myself although the dog was dang cute.

 

[LightningStorm]

Did what Janeway do in "Equinox" any different from what Archer did in a similar episode?

No, but I don't think much of Archer as a captain or a character, either.

So, I'm curious is it that you feel her actions in the episode Equinox was inconsistent with her character or was it just that you thought her actions were abhorrent? (Or, I suppose both?) Reason I ask is because her actions being abhorrent to you don't necessarily make them inconsistent.

As for the inconsistency, I don't agree that her actions (however horrible they were) were inconsistent with her character. I say this because, while we haven't seen her do this before, we also haven't seen her in a situation like that before. We do know that she is quite passionate about things and when faced with certain situations a person (in real life even) would act in a manner that isn't typical of how they'd normally act--be it out of rage, confusion, or some other extreme emotion.

I guess I don't view that sort of thing as an inconsistency in her character so much as an enhancement and developing of her character. It was just the kind of character development we don't typically see in Trek, where the "heroes" always do the right thing. She did exactly the wrong thing.

As for Endgame... I greatly disagree that, that proved any sort of inconsistency. A person changes a lot in a couple of years, there were about 20+ years that Janeway had to change. I think Endgame itself actually tackled some of this via the dialogue between Captain Janeway and Admiral Janeway and the fact that Captain Janeway didn't really seem to agree at all with the Admiral at first.

In thinking about these two episodes more, I think more and more now that both are quite consistent with the Janeway character. All 7 seasons of Voyager Janeway has been putting others' well-being and other species' livelihood before that of her own crew, the whole time questioning if that was the right choice. Equinox was one where she ran into a captain who stood in stark contrast to her by putting his crew before EVERYTHING, she found this so appalling that she took just as drastic a measures to stop them. Then 26 years later as time went on she obviously still wrestled with these decisions, and at some key points (Seven's death, Chakotay's death, Tuvok's insanity, and likely others) decided she had made poor choices by putting others before her crew so she decided to go back and change that.

For why she chose the exact moment she did, well there are any number of speculative reasons for that being the best moment, and that being the worst one, so I'd rather not go into all of that (but I would if one would like to further derail the thread ). And even if that was a bad point to go to, it too is consistent with her character's history of not being perfect and not always making the exact right decisions.

 

[Christopher]

What I see in Janeway's character is more of a loss over time than an inconsistency. Originally, when Jeri Taylor and Michael Piller were in charge of writing her, she was a very 3-dimensional figure, strong and commanding but in a very feminine and nurturing way. When Piller and then Taylor left and Brannon Braga was in charge of the staff, it seemed to me that she became more tough and hard and "masculine." She was still a commander and soldier, but she wasn't a mother to the crew anymore, except just once, in "Good Shepherd." This is probably oversimplifying, but it felt like she went from being a woman's idea of what a strong female leader would be to a man's idea of what a strong female leader would be. And she became less complex and dimensional as a result. I really like the Janeway of the first 3-4 seasons. I'm indifferent to later Janeway, except in "Good Shepherd" when the old Janeway resurfaced.

 

[elaithin]

That's it, exactly. I didn't know the behind the scenes details, but that's the exact impression I had.

 

[JD]

Me too. I didn't realize that that was the point where the change in staff occured, but now that I look back I realize that was about the point where the feel of the show and some of the characterisations started to change.

 

[Trent Roman]

I agree with LightningStorm's excellant post. The so-called inconsistency in Janeway's characterization has always seem greatly exagerated to me, and certainly not something that needed 'fixing'. Maybe I'm just not as sensitive to such things as others (I freely admit I'm not a people person) but I don't recall feeling as though Janeway's character took any sudden shift in a new direction. Did she make decisions I disagreed with? Yes. But how does that make Janeway inconsistent? I'd disagreed with some of her decisions in the early seasons; Janeway as somebody who makes hard decisions isn't new.

I agree that Admiral Janeway's actions in "Endgame" should not be seen to impact on the current character of Janeway, any more than another 'alternate future'-type character. Who knows what happened in the twenty-plus years we weren't privy to? I don't hear anybody saying that Kim's characterization was inconsistent becomes he was an embittered badass in "Timeless" (and of course, both Kim, Chakotay and the Doctor also choose to wipe out years of their current timeline in that episode, though arguable with greater motivation since the entire crew had died). Also, I've never understood the focus on that one scene from "Equinox" when so much of the episode treated of ethical shades of grey. Setting aside, of course, that it was necessary for the thematics of the episode for Janeway to get darker in some way or another, concomittant with Ransom becoming lighter--the two captains, moving in opposite directions towards each other, until they reach the titular equinox, the equality of light and darkness between them. That scene, and the ambush on the planet (where the Equinox take on the role of 'our crew', minding their own business and swapping personal history, only to be suddenly attacked by VOY personel playing the role usually filled by hostile aliens), are critical to the beautiful mirroring taking place within the episode. In some ways, one almost feels that Voyager just can't win: when its adventures are by-the-rote, it gets slagged for being bland and repititive (a criticism I myself have frequently leveled against the show), but when it pushes at ethical boundaries in shows like "Tuvix" and "Equinox", suddenly you've got half or more of the fanbase slagging the show because they don't agree with the resolution to whatever moral dilemna was taking place. In that context, it's perhaps not surprising that the showrunners opted for 'safer' storylines, to the point of inanity sometimes ("Fair Haven", ugh), rather than being daring.

Finally, I must say, even if you do think there was inconsistency in Janeway or Archer, the shows themselves provide perfectly good inside-the-box explanations. Archer seems erratic because he's a noviciate commander encountering situations wholly outside the breadth of human experience--he lacks consistency, particularly in early seasons, because he's basically making it all up as he goes along, discovering his own footing and style in a suddenly much larger galaxy. For Janeway, it's the reverse: she becomes more unstable as time wears on, due to the cumulative stress and guilt of her situation, captaining a lost ship. Having, rightly or wrongly, cut herself off affectively from the crew--no more flirting with Chakotay, fewer chats with Tuvok, to the point of turning to a hologram for an affective relationship instead of just sex--Janeway is under intense psychological pressure without any clear release valve. It wears on her, and indeed twenty-odd more years of that pressure may be what results in the dangerously self-involved Admiral Janeway of "Endgame".

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Steve Roby]

So, I'm curious is it that you feel her actions in the episode Equinox was inconsistent with her character or was it just that you thought her actions were abhorrent? (Or, I suppose both?) Reason I ask is because her actions being abhorrent to you don't necessarily make them inconsistent.

As I said a few posts back, "I could try to argue a consistent characterization of Janeway by looking at particular isolated instances, but it wouldn't be a favourable characterization."

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

What I see in Janeway's character is more of a loss over time than an inconsistency. Originally, when Jeri Taylor and Michael Piller were in charge of writing her, she was a very 3-dimensional figure, strong and commanding but in a very feminine and nurturing way. When Piller and then Taylor left and Brannon Braga was in charge of the staff, it seemed to me that she became more tough and hard and "masculine." She was still a commander and soldier, but she wasn't a mother to the crew anymore, except just once, in "Good Shepherd." This is probably oversimplifying, but it felt like she went from being a woman's idea of what a strong female leader would be to a man's idea of what a strong female leader would be. And she became less complex and dimensional as a result. I really like the Janeway of the first 3-4 seasons. I'm indifferent to later Janeway, except in "Good Shepherd" when the old Janeway resurfaced.

I very much agree. The main inconsistency is to me the dropping of the Chakotay/Janeway angle and going to the extremes when Janeway chose a holographic boyfriend.

Janeway`s erratic behaviour is not so much inconsistent but it certainly is one reason why this character lost more and more of my respect the longer the series ran. I usually only watched each episode once, therefore my memory is somewhat patchy. But after this discussion I re-read my about 10 year old postings archived on Google in order to refresh my memory here.

“Equinox” and “Endgame” are prime examples but there is also the episode in which Janeway punished Paris by putting him into solitary confinement (which is nothing else but a form of torture).

What added to it was a first officer who was reduced to her yes-man and faithful servant instead of standing up to her and giving her the perspectives she needed. His inaction in Equinox amazed me – he stopped Janeway from committing murder (which is the absolute minimum) but he didn`t challenge her ability to be a captain. More, like a sheep he allows himself to be put under house arrest and also the rest of the crew, including Tuvok, did extremely little to absolutely nothing. There was no real challenge at the end of the episode, too and as it is also typical Voyager, the topic was forgotten afterwards.

The problem is the writing. No, I was not happy with Archer`s ruthlessness in third season Enterprise and welcomed it a lot that it was spelled out in book form that Archer recognized this himself and is determined to do better in future. But Enterprise managed to explore why Archer did what he did and shows a crew who is not acting like sheep. In Voyager, I was left with the feeling that sometimes the author in question just felt the need to shock the audience, show “bad Janeway”, but without showing any build up and any consequences.

 

[kimc]

What I see in Janeway's character is more of a loss over time than an inconsistency. Originally, when Jeri Taylor and Michael Piller were in charge of writing her, she was a very 3-dimensional figure, strong and commanding but in a very feminine and nurturing way. When Piller and then Taylor left and Brannon Braga was in charge of the staff, it seemed to me that she became more tough and hard and "masculine." She was still a commander and soldier, but she wasn't a mother to the crew anymore, except just once, in "Good Shepherd." This is probably oversimplifying, but it felt like she went from being a woman's idea of what a strong female leader would be to a man's idea of what a strong female leader would be. And she became less complex and dimensional as a result. I really like the Janeway of the first 3-4 seasons. I'm indifferent to later Janeway, except in "Good Shepherd" when the old Janeway resurfaced.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. What I view as a lack of character development in the later seasons others view as inconsistency which makes sense to me now. It's apparent that Braga & Co. didn't know how to write a female leader and the character became a shadow of her former self.

However, trying to make up for this inconsistency by introducing some alien-influenced character swings in the books was an even worse move imo. What a horrible stereotype!

 

[JoeZhang]

Talking of Janeway`s character - what episode is the bit at 25 seconds in this from? it's been bugging me from ages:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LghbXH7Zm0

 

[William Leisner]

Okay, well, now that we've got this army of Janeway defenders, would anyone care to tackle my prior question: What, precisely, in Before Dishonor constituted "character assassination"?

 

[Steve Roby]

Talking of Janeway`s character - what episode is the bit at 25 seconds in this from? it's been bugging me from ages:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LghbXH7Zm0

From http://www.treknation.com/columns/briefing/briefing_150401.shtml:

A UPN television promo for Voyager’s fifth season revealed a line that was cut from the fourth season episode “Hunters,” in which Janeway seems to face the possibility of a relationship with Chakotay. The aired scene between the two characters is still very touching, yet this snippet of dialogue is a tantalising taste of what might have been:

Janeway: So what’ll it be Chakotay? Indulge my feelings, hold fast to protocol, what?
Chakotay: You have plenty of time to think about it.

 

[Sxottlan]

^ I enjoyed the first two books, and I've nothing against Heather Jarman, or her oeuvre,more broadly speaking. I liked This Grey Spirit and still think that The Officers' Club is a daring, stand-out story, handled with impressive nerve. But the third book of the trilogy just fell apart, overstretching itself fatally (IMO, as always). Had it been just that, I would have shrugged it off, blamed it on ambition not matched by execution, and stuck with best two out of three. But I thought the book takes on this snide tone towards the end, which personally was repellant. What was done to Janeway (and, by extension through the not-quite reset button of 'let us never speak of it again', to the trilogy as a whole) pissed me off, coming off as high-handed and presumptuous. I can assess Voyager's flaws for myself; I don't need to be talked down to, told this-or-that is a flaw, and one so severe that we should go to such extreme lengths to patch it up. And plot-wise, it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If one agrees with the statement that Janeway's characterization becomes erratic in the later seasons, it is simpler to just attribute the instability to the cumulative effect of the psychological pressures, the isolation and the guilt, heaped, fairly or unfairly, on her. I have no problem with that hypothesis; Janeway is only human, was relatively new to the top job, and under exceptional strain. This overwrought conspiracy, if it was intended to rescue the character, assumes a weakness that I don't agree was present. And I know how Janeway would respond to anybody who slighted her character and abilities by assuming she was incapable and in need of rescue.

The thing with Kes, though, just left me befuddled, asking myself just what had happened and why. Which was irritating.

Is it possible to have this post bronzed?