Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg!!!

[ClayinCA]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Hardin said:
T'Lana is off the ship? That's fantastic! I completely misunderstood that scene, then, I was sure the transfer request had been denied.

You're not alone - I evidently misread that section as well, and thought T'Lana was staying (albeit against her will). I guess all that set-up of her and Worf's mutual attraction in the previous books really is for nothing, now...which is fine by me, as Worf can definitely do better.

Hardin said:
I take it from the lack of reactions that no one wishes for Seven to remain on the E?

I'd be up for that, actually. Now that we no longer have Data to "discover his humanity," to to speak, Seven would be good in that role, and it doesn't hurt to have another female as a major character.

Christopher said:

Therin of Andor said:
(I'm also hoping you'll slip in a few TMP-era aliens onto the Enterprise-E.)

There is one who plays a somewhat prominent role, but not on the E-E.

That is great to hear. Makes me look forward to your book even more (though with my current financial state, it's just as well that I have to wait awhile)...

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

will GTTS and Destiny attempt some kind of reconciliation/retcon of the inconsistencies of Kadohata and Leybonzon?

although, point of fact, I think their reactions are some what comprehensible. this is a situation unlike any other where the fate of Earth is literally hanging in the balance and Picard's apparently irrational actions are somewhat inexplicable...

am i the only one who liked BD?

 

[Smiley]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

captcalhoun said:
am i the only one who liked BD?

No. It's in my top two for 2007 from Trek Lit.

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I'll just say --- and this is strictly my opinion -- that what Kadohata and the others did in BD was not, strictly speaking, a mutiny. They had conflicting orders: one directive from their commanding officer, and an opposing directive from a flag officer above him. Based on military protocol, it was entirely appropriate for them to obey their last valid order from the most senior officer in the chain of command.

Had the E-E officers seized command on their own initiative, that would have been a mutiny. This was a case of senior officers acting on valid orders to relieve a CO who had defied the chain of command. It's a really difficult position for an officer to be placed in, and I think that Kadohata acted not out of selfishness or arrogance, but out of respect for the chain of command --- but in the end, her trust in Picard won out. And for that alone, I think it's reasonable for her and Picard to put this behind them.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Christopher said:
There is one who plays a somewhat prominent role, but not on the E-E.

What a guy! Thanks Christopher!

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I think this is splitting hairs: When a CO has been relieved in accordance with first officer and/or counsellor because he is unable to do his job (for example because of mental issues), that is acceptable. The same is the case if that CO is giving illegal orders.

But relieving a CO because he does what he thinks is right contrary to orders given is not good enough. If an officer doesn`t like an order he has the right to refuse to obey and bear the consequences. He can also resign. But preserving the chain of command is not a good enough reason to take over the ship by force. In this case, the whole mutiny (and I think this was mutiny!) was done so clumsily that Kahota and the rest of the mutineers had no choice in the matter: They had to work with Picard and learn the hard way that he was right.

What I am hoping for is that the explanations given in future books will provide more than “We had to obey orders and follow the chain of command”.

I am torn. I am not Picard but I would have real trouble to trust Kahota and the others again. I think Picard was very generous at the end of “Before Dishonor” but what happened should not just be forgotten and forgiven.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Baerbel Haddrell said:
But relieving a CO because he does what he thinks is right contrary to orders given is not good enough. If an officer doesn`t like an order he has the right to refuse to obey and bear the consequences. He can also resign. But preserving the chain of command is not a good enough reason to take over the ship by force.

That's wrong. An officer does not have the right to refuse an order he "doesn't like." An officer swears an oath to obey all lawful orders, whether he likes them or not. Heck, if it came down to liking, why would there need to be orders at all?

Besides, the responsibility lies with the admirals who issued the order to relieve Picard of command, not with the junior officers whose duty compelled them to obey that order.

What I am hoping for is that the explanations given in future books will provide more than “We had to obey orders and follow the chain of command”.

Whether you personally like it or not, in a military organization that's the only explanation that's necessary. You wouldn't do it just because someone told you to, and neither would I; but for someone who's voluntarily joined an organization that follows military discipline, someone who's sworn an oath to obey every lawful order issued by a superior officer, it really is as simple as that. Picard chose to violate that sworn oath to serve a greater good, and Kadohata chose to follow her oath and obey an order she disagreed with. There's no simple way to claim that one choice is absolutely right and the other is absolutely wrong. It comes down to the individual's own conscience.

And putting aside value judgments, speaking purely in terms of legal definitions, Dave is right that what Kadohata and the others did was not a mutiny. Picard was the one committing mutiny by defying his superior's orders. For better or for worse, Kadohata simply did her duty as a Starfleet officer. (Well, so did the others, but in their case, they didn't disagree with the order.)

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

How often has Picard defied direct orders from the Admiralty, though (and then later turned out to be correct)?

I don't like the actions of the T'Lana Cabal, for a variety of reasons. But, looking back now, I also don't necessarily like that Picard seems to have picked up the "Enterprise CO that thinks he knows better than Command, and oftentimes does" mantle from Kirk.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Vixen said:
But, looking back now, I also don't necessarily like that Picard seems to have picked up the "Enterprise CO that thinks he knows better than Command, and oftentimes does" mantle from Kirk.

That mantle seems to be an artifact of Trek movies. Kirk didn't acquire that reputation until The Search for Spock, essentially. There was only one time in TOS ("Amok Time") that he actually violated a direct order from his superiors. Sure, he bent the letter of the Prime Directive on occasion, but the PD wasn't really as strictly defined in TOS as it was in TNG, and there were other occasions where Kirk strove to defend the PD at all costs.

As for Picard, it basically comes from First Contact (where he defied orders to join the battle against the Borg) and Insurrection. I guess the hero defying superiors to save the day is kind of an action-movie convention.

 

[CaptainGold]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Folks,

With all respect to Vixen the many folks who have panned BD, count me in as one of the people who like it. It is not the best ST novel I have read, but it is a good book with a lot of action, and my guess is it is about the end of the Borg.

It's a good book and PD did a good job writing it.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^The Borg are still around. There's that little bit at the end where the assimilated U.S.S Einstein is traveling.

Christopher said:
That mantle seems to be an artifact of Trek movies. Kirk didn't acquire that reputation until The Search for Spock, essentially. There was only one time in TOS ("Amok Time") that he actually violated a direct order from his superiors. Sure, he bent the letter of the Prime Directive on occasion, but the PD wasn't really as strictly defined in TOS as it was in TNG, and there were other occasions where Kirk strove to defend the PD at all costs.

As for Picard, it basically comes from First Contact (where he defied orders to join the battle against the Borg) and Insurrection. I guess the hero defying superiors to save the day is kind of an action-movie convention.

I know that Patrick Stewart wanted more "action" for Picard (hence Vash and all the action episodes). I'm also assuming that Shatner was the same with Kirk.

It's just that there's always this perception (stereotype, even) that Enterprise captains are "teh best" and can get away with defying Command, usually because they're correct. Or think they're correct, anyway.

 

[8of5]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Vixen said:
^The Borg are still around. There's that little bit at the end where the assimilated U.S.S Einstein is traveling.

And whatever remains of the Collective in the rest of the galaxy...

I really enjoyed Before Dishonor. Sure the new characters were completely messed up and the mutiny was horrible. But the rest was thoroughly enjoyable. Not up to the standard of Q&A, but much better than Resistance and generally pretty good I thought.

 

[LightningStorm]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

For me the issue with the "mutiny" wasn't the mutiny itself. And technically, yes, I agree with David and Christopher that it most certainly was not a mutiny by definition. The problem with it (for me anyway) was the way it came off of each of those characters, the most egregious one being Kadohata. The whole "difficult situation" of being forced to remove their captain from command by order of the Admiralty wasn't difficult AT ALL. It came across as more of a "Thank God, Now we have a reason to mutiny and get away with it!" They all showed a very VERY clear lack of respect for Picard (which yes Kadohata did try to come back later and pretend to respect him -- more bipolar BS on that character's part). The lines all throughout were referring to Picard (and Worf and Geordi and Beverly by extension) in a very disrespectful and I'd even say hateful manner.

Kadohata was especially silly in this due to her allegedly being apart of the crew for quite some time. The "new" people vs the "old" people mentality was sickening especially since the "old" people were extremely widely known for all of the good they've done and all the honors they've received.

Leybenzon was allegedly someone who has a "tendency to piss people off," doesn't like officers and "has little use for admirals." That sounds like he should be against Picard due to that alone, I'd agree, however power higher than Picard came down and said "do this!!" and he suddenly bends over and says "YES, SIR!" And is now magically a "chain of command trumps all" kind of guy. Bi-Polar! And he only came to the Enterprise because he RESPECTED Worf they liked each other were fellow "warriors." Oh wait, all of that was in Q&A which was apparently completely disregarded and somehow the readers are supposed to not care about this?

T'Lana ok, she's been a bitch the whole time that's fine, however shes suddenly a caricature of her former self and absolutely oozing with emotions of hate, disrespect and general disdain for Picard and his command. She feels (yes FEELS) like she is always right and can do no wrong, exactly the same thing she's accusing Picard of. Logical? NO.

And that's just the peanut gallery... let's not get started on the misrepresentation of Worf and Picard... And suddenly Worf can't be stunned?? Since when are Klingons immune to standard-issue Starfleet phasers on stun?

Anyway back on the "Mutiny" word, I'm going to still refer to it as "the mutiny" even though it isn't specifically a mutiny because it read like and felt like one.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

^Another issue is that Leybenzon seemed very willing to "do whatever" in order to force Picard to cooperate. Kadohata managed to keep him in line for the most part, but...

 

[Hardin]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

something else: Starfleet Command didn't know the plan Picard & Co (including Seven, who with Picard makes it the two utmost experts on the Borg, and living legend Spock!) had come up with. They couldn't be told without the risk of the Borg intercepting communications (extremely likely). Therefore the order to go back was given on partial information and on the grounds that the Enteprise was apparently refusing to comply with no good reason.

But T'Lana, the idiot and Kadohata knew perfectly well this wasn't the case and why, exactly, Picard wasn't going back to Earth. Sure, it was a long shot, but better odds than facing the planet-devouring-Borg or trust them to leave Earth alone after getting Picard & Seven (coincidently, the only two human with deep, personal knowledge of how the Borg work - this can't be stressed enough. Now, what the Borg could possibly want with them, mhm? Too difficult to grasp for poor, illogical T'Lana and her silly playmates evidently).

So on one hand we have an order on partial information and a Kobayashi Maru situation. On the other we have a captain with a history of saving the galaxy every other weekend, the guy who used to do it even more often back in the day with Kirk, and the gal who's been a Borg, has beaten them over and over on Voyager and has intimate knowledge of the former human parading as the Borg Queen to boot (not to mention three brilliant officers who have helped the captain saving the galaxy all those times). All of them think there may be a better chance. At the very least they deserved much more respect and trust than they were shown, as LightingStorm has perfectly pointed out.

Personally, I would have sided with Picard without a second thought. Actually, I would have hid somewhere until the whole thing was over, but I'm not Starfleet material But neither is Leybenzon, who wants to torture Beverly (c'mon!), for example.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

Maybe I shouldn`t have used the word “like”. On previous occasions I have said that no officer should disobey an order lightly. The officer should have very good reasons to disobey, for example when lives are at stake or for very strong moral reasons.

Star Trek is military but more than that. Star Trek has episodes in which it was emphasized that officers have to follow orders but also about the cost if such orders are followed blindly. There were even a few occasions when officers were praised for having disobeyed orders, meaning that Starfleet needs officers who are able to think for themselves. I am sure, Starfleet officers didn`t join Starfleet in order to be turned into mindless robots, who are given orders and execute them, no matter what. They know that the chain of command is important but there have to be exceptions of the rules.

Fine, technically what Kahota & Co. did was not a mutiny, then. But to me, it feels like one and when officers who are supposed to work with the captain think the chain of command is more important than trusting a captain who has a record of having saved the Earth (among other planets) from the Borg more than once try to take over the ship by force, it might be legally right but morally, it is very wrong indeed. And, yes, this is my personal feeling but why not? We are talking about people here and trust, something that can`t be dictated by what the letter of the law describes.

Also, what lesson should we readers take from this mutiny that is technically not a mutiny? That we should be forgiving and understanding because according to the letter of the law it was perfectly all right to take over the ship in order to preserve the chain of command? I hope the coming books won`t simply stick to legal arguments but make a good effort to understand the motives of Kahota and Leybenzon that go beyond the broken record presented in “Before Dishonor”.

I take it that Kahota and Leybenzon are intended to stay around in TNG Relaunch and I think it is important to do some damage control here. I don`t think I will ever agree that what they did was right and certainly not that it was a good idea but I want to be able to find them at least somewhat likeable and interesting in future. Otherwise, why should I care what happens to them in coming books?

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

KADOHATA! KADOHATA! KADOHATA!

GET IT RIGHT!


jeez!

*simmers down*

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

All right, all right, I got it!

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

It's not one of the easier names to spell. Neither is Leybenzon.

I think one of the problems with this book is the difference between what really happened and what is thought to have happened. I thought that what Kadohata, Leybenzon, and T'Lana did was a mutiny. Meeting in secret, saying that they didn't agree with Picard's decision (despite having more knowledge about it than Command), and that they were going to find officers "not that loyal" to Picard and the "Old Guard"? It sure sounds like a mutiny. What made it worse was the way that the characters were portrayed. Leybenzon goes from an "anti-establishment, anti-command" sort of guy (who said that he could respect Picard) to a person who suddenly cherishes the chain of command and an admiral's orders. Now, granted, Earth was involved. (Which leads me off on another tangent, actually. Yes, Earth is the capital, and headquarters, for the Federation and Starfleet. Yes, it's very important. But it's almost like the rest of the Federation doesn't matter very much, based on the characters' attitudes sometimes. Again, perception problem. This is really more of a criticism on the series in general, actually, not just on this novel).

There are a few more issues with what is thought to happen, and what actually happens. The perception of things was important to this novel, and another reason why I didn't enjoy it.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Re: Vixen tries to do Before Dishonor or: Motherf**king Borg

I've just finished the book and while it's still fresh in my mind I'd like to get a few things down.

Overall, I enjoyed the story and was fully immersed in it. But that is where it ends. I thought the Borg evolution was stupid and the discussion of Pluto being a dwarf planet and then eaten(WTF?) was ridiculous.

I can accept killing characters off when it serves a purpose but killing Janeway did not and I would rank her "death" as more pointless than Trip's.

The number of ships lost was a rehash of Wolf 359 and no military strategist worth their salt would knowingly fire at an enemy if it meant providing said enemy with more power.

As for the mutiny, it was the Crimson Tide situation all over again. Yes both sides were right and both sides were wrong, but in this instance, Picard did what he thought best and his crew should have followed his orders, even if they disagreed, making note of it in various official logs for later perusal by the admiralty.

I've read reviews that state the new folks were acting contrary to previous novels and I agree on that point for the three bridge officers. T'Lana should understand that following the chain of command is sacrosanct and her loyalty is to her commanding officer, not further up the chain of command. Kadohata has served on the Enterprise and should have shown more loyalty to Picard, knowing that his actions more often than not were the right ones regardless of whether they followed Starfleet regulations - which act as a strict guideline but are not always adhered to. As for Leybenzon, I never liked that stick-up-his-ass officer and I always believed that he was the one who would instigate such a mutiny because he's an egotist and believes that officers are thick as two planks. He's lucky that Picard was so forgiving otherwise his Starfleet career would be over.

All that said and done, I am looking forward to Christopher L Bennett's Greater Than The Sum to see how the crew of the Enterprise resolve these conflicts. And let's hope it doesn't take 15 years for T'Lana and Worf to hook up.