Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

[S. Gomez]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Okay, I don't think my question was brought up here, so I can ask it. Oh, and since we apparently need to include advance warning in a book's own discussion thread (which no one who wants to avoid spoilers should be looking at in the first place)...SPOILERS.




I liked the idea of making the ridgeless Klingons (I'm too lazy to look up the name) a sub-class among the "true warriors", but it did raise a couple of issues. Here, as in the previous book, we got a picture of ships with ridged Klingons in command and some of the lower grunts having smooth foreheads; so how do Kor, Koloth, and Kang get to command ships and missions? Also, if it's established that only some Klingons don't have ridges...how did those three named above get them? Before, I think it had always been assumed that the whole race went through those changes. I really need to see that ENT episode again...But really my question was whether or not Vanguard would talk about that.

And I *know* there was another question I had (regarding one of the characters, I believe) but for the life of me, I can't remember what it was. Watch it spring to mind later tonight when I'm half asleep and the computer's turned off.

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

The Star Trek: Enterprise episode "Affliction" made it clear that not all Klingons were affected by the change. It therefore stands to reason that there would have been a mix of such Klingons in the Empire.

As for why Kang, Koloth, et al, have commands, etc. -- there are many possible explanations. Despite the affliction, those men seemed to hail from noble houses or else had some other claim to social status. Also, considering that we saw entire crews of QuchHa' in TOS, it might be reasonable to speculate that, just as the Union Army had ethnically segregated units in the American Civil War (and in subsequent conflicts), that a similar course was pursued here. Maybe the "true" Klingons, who disdain mingling with the QuchHa', figured it would be better to let the ridgless ones have their own ships, commanded by their own kind, to be used as expendable fodder in the coming conflicts with the Federation and the Romulans, etc. Then, of course, the QuchHa', suffering a culturally imposed inferiority complex, act even more tyrannical than the "true" Klingons, substituting raw brutality for martial prowess and arrogance for honor.

Like I said, that's just one possible explanation. Your mileage may vary.

 

[S. Gomez]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

David Mack said:
The Star Trek: Enterprise episode "Affliction" made it clear that not all Klingons were affected by the change. It therefore stands to reason that there would have been a mix of such Klingons in the Empire.

Yeah, I knew that. I meant that it had been previously assumed otherwise before that episode, and didn't make that clear. Sorry.

As for why Kang, Koloth, et al, have commands, etc. -- there are many possible explanations. Despite the affliction, those men seemed to hail from noble houses or else had some other claim to social status. Also, considering that we saw entire crews of QuchHa' in TOS, it might be reasonable to speculate that, just as the Union Army had ethnically segregated units in the American Civil War (and in subsequent conflicts), that a similar course was pursued here. Maybe the "true" Klingons, who disdain mingling with the QuchHa', figured it would be better to let the ridgless ones have their own ships, commanded by their own kind, to be used as expendable fodder in the coming conflicts with the Federation and the Romulans, etc. Then, of course, the QuchHa', suffering a culturally imposed inferiority complex, act even more tyrannical than the "true" Klingons, substituting raw brutality for martial prowess and arrogance for honor.

Like I said, that's just one possible explanation. Your mileage may vary.

Works for me.

Oh, and I remembered another question I had: Was the Jinoteur system meant to resemble the Rutherford-Bohr atomic model? Sounded a lot like it. But then I sometimes have problems visualizing things.

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

S. Gomez said:
Was the Jinoteur system meant to resemble the Rutherford-Bohr atomic model?

Basically, yes -- with a few peculiar additions, in the relative motion of the planets' various satellites vis a vis not only their planets but also the system's main-sequence star.

 

[Rosalind]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

S. Gomez said:
Oh, and I remembered another question I had: Was the Jinoteur system meant to resemble the Rutherford-Bohr atomic model? Sounded a lot like it. But then I sometimes have problems visualizing things.

I thought when I first read that you mean Boze-Einstein condensate, and wondered how a solar system can look like a Boze-Einstein condensate.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

S. Gomez said:
Before, I think it had always been assumed that the whole race went through those changes.

No, it hadn't. Some fans speculated that the whole Klingon species changed, but it was only one of numerous theories. The Final Reflection assumed that Klingons were naturally ridged and that the smooth-headed ones were genetic "fusions." Issues 53-57 of DC's second TOS comic, written by Howard Weinstein, had scenes set in the Klingons' distant past with smoothies and ridgies coexisting. My own pet theory used to be that the ridgies were native to Qo'noS and that the smoothies were hybrids descended from humanlike colonists -- and that the smoothies naturally grew ridges as they aged, explaining the change in Kor, Kang, and Koloth. (General Chang, with his faint ridges, would've been just beginning this process.) So there has never been one universally accepted theory.

And the idea that the whole species changed simultaneously just doesn't make sense. If it were a natural phenomenon like a disease or mutation, it couldn't possibly propagate through 100 percent of a population spread out over dozens of planets, and couldn't possibly affect 100 percent of the population identically. (And natural mutations would take millennia to spread through the population, not just the 3 years between "Turnabout Intruder" and TMP.) And if it were some deliberate choice to change, there's no way that 100 percent of a species as contentious and strong-willed as Klingons would ever have agreed to go along with it.

 

[JD]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

David Mack said:
The Star Trek: Enterprise episode "Affliction" made it clear that not all Klingons were affected by the change. It therefore stands to reason that there would have been a mix of such Klingons in the Empire.

As for why Kang, Koloth, et al, have commands, etc. -- there are many possible explanations. Despite the affliction, those men seemed to hail from noble houses or else had some other claim to social status. Also, considering that we saw entire crews of QuchHa' in TOS, it might be reasonable to speculate that, just as the Union Army had ethnically segregated units in the American Civil War (and in subsequent conflicts), that a similar course was pursued here. Maybe the "true" Klingons, who disdain mingling with the QuchHa', figured it would be better to let the ridgless ones have their own ships, commanded by their own kind, to be used as expendable fodder in the coming conflicts with the Federation and the Romulans, etc. Then, of course, the QuchHa', suffering a culturally imposed inferiority complex, act even more tyrannical than the "true" Klingons, substituting raw brutality for martial prowess and arrogance for honor.

Like I said, that's just one possible explanation. Your mileage may vary.

Makes sense to me. I've been thinking that it might be something like that. Just out of curiosity how much time passes between RTW and Errand of Mercy? Also did you guys intend for Anna to be a QuchHa or was she ridged pre-infiltration?

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

^ RTW is roughly concurrent with the episode "The Corbomite Maneuver", so approximately a year before "Errand of Mercy".

As for Anna's pre-surgical appearance, we never really discussed it.

 

[S. Gomez]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Rosalind said:

S. Gomez said:
Oh, and I remembered another question I had: Was the Jinoteur system meant to resemble the Rutherford-Bohr atomic model? Sounded a lot like it. But then I sometimes have problems visualizing things.

I thought when I first read that you mean Boze-Einstein condensate, and wondered how a solar system can look like a Boze-Einstein condensate.

Yeah. And also that I really have (had) no idea what you're talking about.

 

[CaptainGold]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

JWolf,

I am trying to find the spolier codes, I am having trouble finding out how to use them. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[CaptainGold]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Christopher,

First, thanks for the reply:


SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

If Reyes were a completely callous, ruthless bastard, then I'm sure he could set aside his direct responsibility for thousands of avoidable deaths, including that of his ex-wife whom he still loved, by blaming it on somebody else. That's how sociopaths deal with such things -- by claiming that everything bad they do is someone else's fault. It's not how decent human beings deal with them.

Maybe, maybe not. A general officer of any service has a lot of classified material entrusted to him, and there are times where officers of high rank have killed themselves instead of giving up important material and information. For somebody like Reyes to do this is quite out of character. He would try to talk to someone at Command first before he blew it all up, at the least. I can see the emotional side of it, I'm not sure it is how a guy ina real-life situation would have done it.

It's not over those things. It's about the fact that his own rigid insistence on secrecy, his deliberate decision to put people in harm's way rather than bend the letter of his orders even slightly, led directly to their deaths. It's about the damage that secrets and lies do when they're placed above people's safety. And it's about a man making a decision to be a good man rather than just an obedient soldier.

Maybe this is just restating my point, but most of the time, it is not an either/or case. If it is an either/or here, fine with me. But if he felt that strongly about it, or if Starfleet Command felt so strongly about the secrecy of it, then someway would have been found to make sure the colonists don't get to the planet. If it's that important, the colony couldn't say no like they did. The Federation can't survive if it doesn't. It just seems to be a shame that Reyes mentally breaks here, it never came across to me as a Starfleet version of the Pentagon Papers as it was intended. Otherwise he finds a way somehow to stay out of the situation with the colony in the first place.

"Just another Connie?" There's nothing "just" about the Constitution class. Best. Starship. Ever. And always welcome.

Speaking more objectively: VNG is a TOS-era series, and including a Constitution-class ship gives it a stronger tie-in to TOS, provides a familiar "look and feel" to connect the series to that era.

My point exactly, though not stated well by me at first. I'm not trashing the Connie, I agree with you it is the best ST ship. But somehow I would think Starfleet finds more ships than a scout, a Dadaleous, and one Connie. Even after losing the first ship, there has to be other ships available for Vanguard than just three or four ships. Is Reyes a station commander with a couple of ships, or a Sector commander with a greater call on resources?


END SPOILERS

BTW, I'm working ont he spoiler code stuff.

Thank you!

 

[CaptainGold]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

David,

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate them very much, and while in my reply to Christopher I sort of talk over your stuff about why no other shipe to Vanguard, I appreciate your thinking on the issue.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

CaptainGold said:
But somehow I would think Starfleet finds more ships than a scout, a Dadaleous, and one Connie. Even after losing the first ship, there has to be other ships available for Vanguard than just three or four ships. Is Reyes a station commander with a couple of ships, or a Sector commander with a greater call on resources?

Remember, this is a remote outpost, well beyond the UFP's borders. Starfleet has only just begun to explore the region -- and it's just one region out of a big galaxy. If it hadn't been for the meta-genome mystery, they wouldn't even have finished building the starbase yet. So yes, Reyes can call on all the resources of that sector, but it's a sector that Starfleet has a very limited presence in at this point.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

I just finished today. It does not end very satisfactorally for me.

 

[Rat Boy]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

David, a question: were the Brassicans a reference to a species of the same name from the PC game Star Trek: Judgment Rites?

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

^ No, I had never heard of that game; I named the animal-plant hybrid species by looking up the Latin root word for "broccoli" and tweaking it slightly. Any similarity to another fictional creation was coincidental and unintended.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

OK, I'm a bit of a starship geek, so I hope no one minds if I ask a starship geek-y question.

In the minipedia, the Zin'za is mentioned as being a D5 class ship, but on the cover of RtW, it is a D7. (Assuming that is in fact the Zin'za, but since it seems to be depicting a specific scene from the book, I'm guessing it is.)

In the text of RtW itself, I don't remember the ship being referred to as a specific class, just as a "battlecruiser". Was a particular class mentioned in Summon the Thunder?

Loved the book, BTW!

 

[David Mack]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

^ It's a typo in the minipedia.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

Quick (slightly embarrassing) question:

"es-per" or "e-s-p-er"?

 

[Avro Arrow]

Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind

David Mack said:
^ It's a typo in the minipedia.

Ah, thanks!

Admiral Valeris said:
"es-per" or "e-s-p-er"?

In "Where No Man Has Gone Before", they pronounced it as "es-per". (At least Dehner did, IIRC.)