Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind
- Thread starter David Mack
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She doesn't so much swim as she "sinks with style."
She doesn't so much swim as she "sinks with style."
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
Thanks for the spoiler, TurtleTrekker.
Thanks for the spoiler, TurtleTrekker.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
Hell, in the Gorkon series, KRAD tells us that those Chancellor-class ships hold 3000 warriors. You can assume the Klingons have always used BIG ships. Apparently they've never heard of not putting all their eggs in one basket - do any of their animals lay eggs?
I gathered that, Dave, hence my saying that the Feds don't use BIG ships, meaning that the Klingons do.
Hell, in the Gorkon series, KRAD tells us that those Chancellor-class ships hold 3000 warriors. You can assume the Klingons have always used BIG ships. Apparently they've never heard of not putting all their eggs in one basket - do any of their animals lay eggs?
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^ Sorry if I came off as pedantic, Xeris. I just wanted to make certain there hadn't been any miscommunication.
^ Sorry if I came off as pedantic, Xeris. I just wanted to make certain there hadn't been any miscommunication.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
There are plenty of Klingon ships that hold small numbers of people. You'll recall that the birds of prey in the TOS movie era only have a dozen on board. The Chancellor-class ships, though, were created to be frontline warships, with a complement of 2700. Of those, 1500 are ground troops who are, bluntly, expendable. And the Chancellor ships are designed both to serve on their own far from the empire and also to lead larger fleets.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
I know, I am a fan. I was just trying to make the point that the Federation do not do big ships on that scale. The largest Federation vessel is the Galaxy-class that holds 1000 or so.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
^^Well, that's the largest Starfleet vessel class that we've seen. Not all Federation ships are Starfleet ships. There could easily be civilian liners or colony ships that could hold larger numbers.
Also, 1000 people is only the default complement of a Galaxy-class ship on a typical exploration mission, in the "luxury liner" mode we saw on the show with abundant extra space and power. If a Galaxy-class ship were configured in more of a Klingon way, a bare-bones military situation, it could hold far more people. According to the TMP Tech Manual, there are enough unoccupied quarters available to support a crew of up to 6,500 people in the short term. And in an emergency evacuation situation, with cargo and shuttle bays converted into living space, a Galaxy-class ship could hold up to 15,000 people.
I expect that all those Galaxy-class ships we saw in the Dominion War fleets were used as troop carriers, ferrying infantry in massive numbers. I can't see any other reason to keep those bloated saucer sections attached rather than going with just the battle hull alone. And come to think of it, the ship in "Yesterday's Enterprise" seemed far more crowded than it did in the main timeline, so I wouldn't be surprised if it had a complement of 5-6000.
^^Well, that's the largest Starfleet vessel class that we've seen. Not all Federation ships are Starfleet ships. There could easily be civilian liners or colony ships that could hold larger numbers.
Also, 1000 people is only the default complement of a Galaxy-class ship on a typical exploration mission, in the "luxury liner" mode we saw on the show with abundant extra space and power. If a Galaxy-class ship were configured in more of a Klingon way, a bare-bones military situation, it could hold far more people. According to the TMP Tech Manual, there are enough unoccupied quarters available to support a crew of up to 6,500 people in the short term. And in an emergency evacuation situation, with cargo and shuttle bays converted into living space, a Galaxy-class ship could hold up to 15,000 people.
I expect that all those Galaxy-class ships we saw in the Dominion War fleets were used as troop carriers, ferrying infantry in massive numbers. I can't see any other reason to keep those bloated saucer sections attached rather than going with just the battle hull alone. And come to think of it, the ship in "Yesterday's Enterprise" seemed far more crowded than it did in the main timeline, so I wouldn't be surprised if it had a complement of 5-6000.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
Loved RTW, David. Even though it had been some time since I'd read STT, and haven't yet had the chance to read DEW for some of the background, I fell back into the storyline with a great deal of ease. There were some wonderful twists and turns along the way. My only quibble I had was that
It was still a wonderful read, though.
Actually, we know that even the Excelsior class can hold more than that number - The USS Grissom from DS9's "Field of Fire" had a wartime complement of 1250, and she's way down on the Galaxy in terms of volume.
In that episode, Tasha in fact states that the battleship Enterprise is "capable of transporting over 6000 troops".
Loved RTW, David. Even though it had been some time since I'd read STT, and haven't yet had the chance to read DEW for some of the background, I fell back into the storyline with a great deal of ease. There were some wonderful twists and turns along the way. My only quibble I had was that
the use of Clark Terrell reduced the sense of danger for his situation, at least in my view, as we know he must survive with no major injuries. Indeed, I also felt it lessened the sense of danger for the Sagittarius as well.
It was still a wonderful read, though.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
^ Thanks for your comments on RtW.
^ Thanks for your comments on RtW.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
Back on topic, I eagerly await RTW knowing that it being a Mack it will be great if not better, and judging from the other responses, I won't be disappointed.
All true, but the Feds tend not to put all their eggs in one basket because it is bad tactical strategy. The Klingons are generally too focussed on "no one can stop us" and "bigger is better" so several thousand troops on one vessel isn't a problem for them. I can't see Starfleet StratOps doing the same thing. They're more likely to have a dozen smaller ships than one big one to transfer personnel either troops or convoy. Take the New Earth series, Enterprise was watching over a convoy of ships. Smaller colonies need fewer (or one) ship(s), like the Conestoga heading for the Terra Nova.
Back on topic, I eagerly await RTW knowing that it being a Mack it will be great if not better, and judging from the other responses, I won't be disappointed.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
IMO just because we never heard about or saw the UFP using one big ships to transport a huge group of people doesn't mean that they didn't. I would think they a originzation as big as the UFP would have to have at least once class of ships that could transport thousands of people at once. It would deffinitely make it easier to get people of a planet quickly or rescue survivors from a huge DW type battle. Sending in one ship would deffinitely have to be alot less complicated than trying to coordinate a huge rescue fleet.
IMO just because we never heard about or saw the UFP using one big ships to transport a huge group of people doesn't mean that they didn't. I would think they a originzation as big as the UFP would have to have at least once class of ships that could transport thousands of people at once. It would deffinitely make it easier to get people of a planet quickly or rescue survivors from a huge DW type battle. Sending in one ship would deffinitely have to be alot less complicated than trying to coordinate a huge rescue fleet.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
I'd think it would depend on the needs of the mission. If you have to get massive numbers of troops somewhere in a hurry, you pack them in full, especially if the number of ships you have available is limited. No sense having a single inflexible strategy for every scenario. I'm sure there are situations where the Klingons would use more ships with smaller complements.
Again you're conflating "Starfleet" and "Federation" as though they were the same thing. They aren't. The convoy in New Earth was a civilian fleet that Enterprise was assigned to escort. And the Conestoga was neither a Starfleet nor a Federation operation, since neither of those institutions existed yet. So neither of those is representative of what Starfleet might do in a tactical situation.
Besides, it's on record that the Galaxy-class is designed to be capable of carrying a crew of up to 6500 at a time if the mission calls for it. Arguably that's even canonical, since it was stated onscreen that the "Yesterday's Enterprise" version of the ship could carry 6000, and that ship was clearly the same design as the Galaxy Class we know.
I'd think it would depend on the needs of the mission. If you have to get massive numbers of troops somewhere in a hurry, you pack them in full, especially if the number of ships you have available is limited. No sense having a single inflexible strategy for every scenario. I'm sure there are situations where the Klingons would use more ships with smaller complements.
Again you're conflating "Starfleet" and "Federation" as though they were the same thing. They aren't. The convoy in New Earth was a civilian fleet that Enterprise was assigned to escort. And the Conestoga was neither a Starfleet nor a Federation operation, since neither of those institutions existed yet. So neither of those is representative of what Starfleet might do in a tactical situation.
Besides, it's on record that the Galaxy-class is designed to be capable of carrying a crew of up to 6500 at a time if the mission calls for it. Arguably that's even canonical, since it was stated onscreen that the "Yesterday's Enterprise" version of the ship could carry 6000, and that ship was clearly the same design as the Galaxy Class we know.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
I'm about 60 pages away from finishing this novel (after I couldn't put it down last night for 150 pages... thanks for keeping me up late and barely arriving on-time for my 9am meeting, Mr. Mack
). I should have a review up on my site this weekend, but in the short-term, let me just say... very nice. :thumbsup:
I'm about 60 pages away from finishing this novel (after I couldn't put it down last night for 150 pages... thanks for keeping me up late and barely arriving on-time for my 9am meeting, Mr. Mack
). I should have a review up on my site this weekend, but in the short-term, let me just say... very nice. :thumbsup:
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
Glad you've enjoyed it, Julio.
Glad you've enjoyed it, Julio.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
Christopher, it isn't my intention to conflate Starfleet and the Federation, but even civilian ships within the Federation are classified as Federation ships. While Starfleet is the quasi-military, scientific and exploratory arm of same, the majority of ships won't be Starfleet, but will most likely have been built at the same shipyards.
I can't see Federation civilian craft being Galaxy-class size because while practical carrying troops - which are just people - a colony would need livestock, foodstuffs and an infrastructure and one ship (even a Galaxy-class ship) just isn't big enough for thousands of colonists and all that. It would make more sense to have a small convoy, and there is safety in numbers.
Christopher, it isn't my intention to conflate Starfleet and the Federation, but even civilian ships within the Federation are classified as Federation ships. While Starfleet is the quasi-military, scientific and exploratory arm of same, the majority of ships won't be Starfleet, but will most likely have been built at the same shipyards.
I can't see Federation civilian craft being Galaxy-class size because while practical carrying troops - which are just people - a colony would need livestock, foodstuffs and an infrastructure and one ship (even a Galaxy-class ship) just isn't big enough for thousands of colonists and all that. It would make more sense to have a small convoy, and there is safety in numbers.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
But it would have room for the colonists and a couple of industrial replicators, which would be sufficient to get a colony's infrastructure up and running and provide temporary foodstuffs long enough to get crops growing. As for livestock, I guess it would depend on whether or not the planet in question had any native animals that would fit the bill.
But it would have room for the colonists and a couple of industrial replicators, which would be sufficient to get a colony's infrastructure up and running and provide temporary foodstuffs long enough to get crops growing. As for livestock, I guess it would depend on whether or not the planet in question had any native animals that would fit the bill.
Re: Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind excerpt is up
Yes, obviously, but my point is that they aren't Starfleet ships. You're talking about the civilian Federation fleet in New Earth as if it set a precedent for how Starfleet would handle troop movements, and that's apples and oranges.
Yes, obviously, but my point is that they aren't Starfleet ships. You're talking about the civilian Federation fleet in New Earth as if it set a precedent for how Starfleet would handle troop movements, and that's apples and oranges.
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