Vanguard controversy

[iguana_tonante]

TheLonelySquire said:
Guys, why is it such an issue that I find glorifying adultery wrong and homoexuality equally distasteful? I'm not telling you guys not to read it, so why are you on my case?

C'mon, deal with it.

The issue is that the book (as I understand) doesn't glorifying anything. It tells a story. You rejected the book on the fact that it deals with adultery and homosexuality. Do you return Shakespeare and Dante, too? They surely deal with adultery. Do you return the Iliad? It deals with homosexuality, after all.

The fact that you can find such mature themes in Star Trek books, in my mind, stands to the fact that they are good literature. Flawed heroes, tryind to mend for past mistakes, and characters that depict different behavious and opinions are good stuff for writing and reading about, even if you do not agree with what they do. Reading something had never hurt someone. Not reading, on the other hand, can be very dangerous.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

tenmei said:
Why laugh at that statement?

Who's to say that the Vulcans and Klingons don't have a more open minded view than some people, that they don't see the big problem with a lesbian relationship.

My issue is that I believe conduct such as this is wrong. I don't enjoy reading about it. I returned the remaining books, plain and simple.

I'm not forcing my belief on anyone, so why is everyone getting their panties in a bunch here?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

iguana_tonante said:

TheLonelySquire said:
Guys, why is it such an issue that I find glorifying adultery wrong and homoexuality equally distasteful? I'm not telling you guys not to read it, so why are you on my case?

C'mon, deal with it.

The issue is that the book (as I understand) doesn't glorifying anything. It tells a story. You rejected the book on the fact that it deals with adultery and homosexuality. Do you return Shakespeare and Dante, too? They surely deal with adultery. Do you return the Iliad? It deals with homosexuality, after all.

The fact that you can find such mature themes in Star Trek books, in my mind, stands to the fact that they are good literature. Flawed heroes, tryind to mend for past mistakes, and characters that depict different behavious and opinions are good stuff for writing and reading about, even if you do not agree with what they do. Reading something had never hurt someone. Not reading, on the other hand, can be very dangerous.

I respect your opinion and you make valid points. I would hope you respect my choice to read whatever I want to as well.

I never said the book shouldn't be read by others if they so choose. I choose not to on moral grounds.

 

[tenmei]

Mate, you're stating that such conduct would be okay if the characters sought redemption after the fact. But, there is nothing to seek redemption for.

You're applying your own beliefs and morals to two alien cultures - both Klingon and Vulcan - and whose to say that those two alien cultures don't find such acts acceptable?

So, in effect, you are forcing your beliefs on both Lurqal and T'Prynn by saying their actions would be okay if they sought forgiveness and redemption.

 

[iguana_tonante]

^Thanks. I always try to be reasonable and not too much judgemental (even if sometimes I fail).

The moral ground eludes me (how could be reading something that you object to an immoral act?), but it is your choice.

 

[Therin of Andor]

TheLonelySquire said:
I choose not to on moral grounds.

I assume you walk out of a lot of plays and movies halfway through, and constantly turn off TV shows, and return books and DVDs. I'm curious how you can even watch most episodes of Star Trek. Most popular entertainment manages to show aspects of immoral behaviour all the time. It's what makes them entertaining!

 

[Christopher]

TheLonelySquire said:
Guys, why is it such an issue that I find glorifying adultery wrong and homoexuality equally distasteful? I'm not telling you guys not to read it, so why are you on my case?

C'mon, deal with it.

Many of us find homophobia wrong and distasteful. Deal with that.

I mean, come on, this is Star Trek. This is a universe that has been telling us for 40 years that prejudice against those with different appearances, different biologies, different religions, different cultures and value systems, different whatever is just plain wrong and will have been eradicated from human consciousness within a few centuries. How can it possibly come as a surprise that sexual orientation is included in that blanket philosophy of tolerance? How could you not have seen it coming that the members of a Star Trek board would mostly disagree with your attitude about this?

 

[SeerSGB]

I think I've found a new reason to love Vanguard: Any book that can piss of conservative fanboys get a big thumbs up in my book.

Anyway..smartassness aside,

I don't see what the big deal was. I thought the stories in Vanguard were a refreshing change for the 'Trek novels. As for the whole "OMG they're having Lesbian sex", meh whatever; it wasn't written like a letter to Penthouse and there was a certain amount of internal-logic behind the reason. As for Pennington sleeping around on his wife...oh well, he's not the first man to do that, indeed not the first character in 'Trek that was bed hopping, nothing new there.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Please don't get me wrong. I advocate equal legal protections for everyone, including homosexuals. They are people and deserve ths respect.

However, moral conduct is another matter. It's not homophobic to disagree with homosexuality on moral grounds. Same thing with adultery.

 

[William Leisner]

Therin of Andor said:

TheLonelySquire said:
I choose not to on moral grounds.

I assume you walk out of a lot of plays and movies halfway through, and constantly turn off TV shows, and return books and DVDs. I'm curious how you can even watch most episodes of Star Trek.

Not to mention how he can spend as much time on the internet as he obviously does...

 

[TheLonelySquire]

SeerSGB said:
I think I've found a new reason to love Vanguard: Any book that can piss of conservative fanboys get a big thumbs up in my book.

Anyway..smartassness aside,

I don't see what the big deal was. I thought the stories in Vanguard were a refreshing change for the 'Trek novels. As for the whole "OMG they're having Lesbian sex", meh whatever; it wasn't written like a letter to Penthouse and there was a certain amount of internal-logic behind the reason. As for Pennington sleeping around on his wife...oh well, he's not the first man to do that, indeed not the first character in 'Trek that was bed hopping, nothing new there.

It doesn't anger conservatives. It makes us weep for society.

 

[Turtletrekker]

That's funny. Conservatives make me weep for society.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

William Leisner said:

Therin of Andor said:

TheLonelySquire said:
I choose not to on moral grounds.

I assume you walk out of a lot of plays and movies halfway through, and constantly turn off TV shows, and return books and DVDs. I'm curious how you can even watch most episodes of Star Trek.

Not to mention how he can spend as much time on the internet as he obviously does...

What is really funny is that some of you preach tolerance, yada, yada. You don't seem to be very tolerant of opposing opinions. You really seem to get upset very easily, which is unfortunate.

Practice what you preach.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Turtletrekker said:
That's funny. Conservatives make me weep for society.

Well, seeing as most conservatives are Christians, you can have the world after we're gone. In the meantime we'll maintain the moral compass.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Yeah, right.

Like I said in the other thread. I'm not sure that homosexuality is in any way a sin, but I am convinced that bigotry toward them is a sin. But that's allright, I forgive you. I'm just tolerant that way.

 

[William Leisner]

TheLonelySquire said:
What is really funny is that some of you preach tolerance, yada, yada. You don't seem to be very tolerant of opposing opinions. You really seem to get upset very easily, which is unfortunate.

Practice what you preach.

Ah, yes, the old "You are intolerant of my intolerance" whine! Bravo, sir!

I don't see anyone here "upset"... at least not "Me no likey stories about imaginary gay people; me demand me money back" upset. We're merely pointing out the flaws in your thinking and your professed philosophy, which are tremendous.

 

[JD]

TheLonelySquire said:

William Leisner said:

Therin of Andor said:

TheLonelySquire said:
I choose not to on moral grounds.

I assume you walk out of a lot of plays and movies halfway through, and constantly turn off TV shows, and return books and DVDs. I'm curious how you can even watch most episodes of Star Trek.

Not to mention how he can spend as much time on the internet as he obviously does...

What is really funny is that some of you preach tolerance, yada, yada. You don't seem to be very tolerant of opposing opinions. You really seem to get upset very easily, which is unfortunate.

Practice what you preach.

Actually, what we are having trouble with is your lack of tolerance. The thing I must most ironic about this whole situation, is that fact that the stuff people like you find find so objectionable is part of what I liked about the book. Don't get me worng, I'm not a perv or anything, I just thought it was nice to see Star Trek starting to deal with more mature themes and ideas.

 

[Sci]

TheLonelySquire said:
It's not homophobic to disagree with homosexuality on moral grounds.

You're right. It's actually heterosexist.

 

[tenmei]

If you're maintaining the moral high ground on this because it says the bible (and thus, God) told you so, then I have to presume you're also in favour of slavery, never come into contact with a woman whilst she's on her period, never work on Sunday, don't approach an alter in a church if you have a sight impediment, never cut your hair and never blaspheme.

Oh, and never eat shellfish.

Because if you don't believe in slavery, cut your hair, come into a contact with a woman whilst she's on her period, work on a Sunday and approach the alter at church if you have a sight impediment and eat shellfish, then you're a huge sinner.

Especially the shellfish thing, because God hates us eating them shellfish, and specifically says that it's an abomination.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I open a thread on the "Vanguard Controversy," and I was expecting something on the pro-Iraq politics of the series.

Instead, we've got people whining about sex? I mean, shit, Gene Roddenberry would be dancing with joy at the lesbian sex.

Times like this I repeat John Lennon's phrase: "Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I am right and have been proven right."