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USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

There comes a point, where you've retconned so much, that it still ends up a reboot. A reboot by a thousand retcons.

Where's that point, though? Godzilla's reboot in 1984 introduced a completely different suit for the titular monster than was seen in the original, and then did that again with the next movie. Those three movies are part of the same continuity. Does that count as crossing that point?

So does that render all discussion here about interpreting retcons moot?

If one says that the producers have final say, yes. You can still discuss it for fun, I guess. :)
 
Keep in mind the NX-01 had several significant technological updates in the meantime, including a full refit after the XIndi-War and technological exchange with the Vulcan after they changed their leaderships.

It's still possible the Romulan "cloaking device" was the very same magic holographic cloak just turned on to be invisible, instead of aping another ship. And it showed this ship could alter it's warp signature to look like other's, if it's capable to change that on a whim, it's also able to try to make it blend with background radiation.

Really, it might have simply been that Enterprise season 2 sensor weren't up to the task of detecting this holographic cloak, while upgraded season 4 sensors were. It's not that the "Minefield"-cloak was so advanced. But that Enterprise's sensors pre-technology exchange were simply not up to the task.

Which wuld make a lot more sense for how the Romulans acted in that three-parter: If they had a functioning 24th century cloak at that point - one that Vulcans et a. couldn't detect - they would have used it.

It's still treated as a full cloak, complete with space warping effect, not a holoimage disengaging.

This is a nice little merry go round, but it doesn't change anything. Season 2 gave them cloaks and the novels, while not canon entirely, are made to be the continuation of the show as if they were, and they go all out with cloaking. From official sources that worked on Enterprise itself.

I'll be taking that over conjecture and TOS-plaining older shows anyday.
 
It's still treated as a full cloak, complete with space warping effect, not a holoimage disengaging.

This is a nice little merry go round, but it doesn't change anything. Season 2 gave them cloaks and the novels, while not canon entirely, are made to be the continuation of the show as if they were, and they go all out with cloaking. From official sources that worked on Enterprise itself.

I'll be taking that over conjecture and TOS-plaining older shows anyday.

The holographic effect of the warp drone did specifically look like the Romulan ship cloaking and decloaking. The creators were very deliberate in introducing it that way.

This is either:
1) a continuity error
2) a retcon
3) headcanon.

It's definitely the third one. But they producers dropped BIG hints it's the second one as well - and a pretty clever one at that, it literally explains everything without needing it to be spelled out. And works in continuity to both "Minefiel" and TOS seamlessness. But if you prefer it to be the first one...fine?:shrug:

It's just weird to specifically ignore explanations given in-universe in favour of keeping coninuity errors.
Novels are non-canon btw.
 
And works in continuity to both "Minefiel" and TOS seamlessness.
Yeah, but why fix it if it's still a thing in other parts of show. I mean, at the point where Romulans and Suliban use cloaking tech I don't really see the point in retconning the Romulans' cloak into a holo-thing. I'm not opposed to it, personally I think that holo-cloaking sounds kinda cooler than regular cloaking, but the cat is already out of the bag in that case and pushing it back in about halfway doesn't do that much good.
 
Yeah, but why fix it if it's still a thing in other parts of show. I mean, at the point where Romulans and Suliban use cloaking tech I don't really see the point in retconning the Romulans' cloak into a holo-thing. I'm not opposed to it, personally I think that holo-cloaking sounds kinda cooler than regular cloaking, but the cat is already out of the bag in that case and pushing it back in about halfway doesn't do that much good.

Remember: Star Trek holograms are weird. They work via forcefields, and they can be created from inside.
So it's entirely plausible (and in fact logical) to assume both Suliban and Romulans use the same type of cloaking device - a holographic one, that simply makes the ship invisible.
It doesn't make a difference for the Enterprise crew themselves - they still can't detect them without help. But it makes ENT fit with Trek canon as a whole much better: Having a "historic" (22nd century) cloaking device that is basically an invisible field, and a "modern" (23-24th century one) that works by phase-shifting from reality.
It's a bit like the jump from "hull plating" to "shields" - on a narrative level it functions the same. But it still gives a better illusion of technology progressing (the futuristic ones are definitely more advanced), it fixes a whole lot of continuity issues at once (Spock in "Balance of Terror" is amazed to see a ship vanishing from reality - while historically they just turned invisible), and generally improves the "shared universe-ness" of Trek.

So really, there is no disadvantage in accepting this little retcon, but a whole lot of improvements on continuity issues. Doesn't mean it has to be true. But TPTB heavily implied it is, and it makes a lot of sense, and there aren't really any drawbacks. Except maybe for non-canon material like books being affected. Depends on which of those one deems more important.
 
Remember: Star Trek holograms are weird. They work via forcefields, and they can be created from inside.
So it's entirely plausible (and in fact logical) to assume both Suliban and Romulans use the same type of cloaking device - a holographic one, that simply makes the ship invisible.
It doesn't make a difference for the Enterprise crew themselves - they still can't detect them without help. But it makes ENT fit with Trek canon as a whole much better: Having a "historic" (22nd century) cloaking device that is basically an invisible field, and a "modern" (23-24th century one) that works by phase-shifting from reality.
It's a bit like the jump from "hull plating" to "shields" - on a narrative level it functions the same. But it still gives a better illusion of technology progressing (the futuristic ones are definitely more advanced), it fixes a whole lot of continuity issues at once (Spock in "Balance of Terror" is amazed to see a ship vanishing from reality - while historically they just turned invisible), and generally improves the "shared universe-ness" of Trek.

So really, there is no disadvantage in accepting this little retcon, but a whole lot of improvements on continuity issues. Doesn't mean it has to be true. But TPTB heavily implied it is, and it makes a lot of sense, and there aren't really any drawbacks. Except maybe for non-canon material like books being affected. Depends on which of those one deems more important.

Well, I think the Suliban got their cloaking tech from the Future Guy in the 28th century, so I'd assume that's legit cloaking, but on the other hand he could have given them 22nd century cloaking to better fit in, knowing that it couldn't be detected anyway. It may actually have been a smart move to protect future knowledge from falling in the wring (well, right from our perspective) hands, for example there's the Suliban pod or whatever it was the NX-01 crew captured. I'm starting to really like this retcon :D

I'm not quite sure what exactly the novels made of the cloaking stuff and if and how they explained it, it's been some time since I read the Mangels ENT novels and I have little to no desire to revisit them...
 
Well, I think the Suliban got their cloaking tech from the Future Guy in the 28th century, so I'd assume that's legit cloaking, but on the other hand he could have given them 22nd century cloaking to better fit in, knowing that it couldn't be detected anyway. It may actually have been a smart move to protect future knowledge from falling in the wring (well, right from our perspective) hands, for example there's the Suliban pod or whatever it was the NX-01 crew captured. I'm starting to really like this retcon :D

Or he actually gave the Suliban the futuristic cloaking technology, but everyone later on only encountered the "invisible fields" of Romulans, ande everyone just assumed the Suliban were using the same more simply type, and forgot about them.:lol:

Really, I think this is a great example for the official company line on canon: "Everthing is consistent. If there are any contradictions, a logical explanation can be assumed". Like, there are several possible explanations on how all this stuff can fit with each other, and we already found a few good ones. The creators don't hand-feed us the "real" or "true" solution, but it can be assumed to be one of the logical ones.
 
In this case, I prefer the much simpler and tidier explanation, namely that in "Balance Of Terror" Spock merely means it's his working theory based on his immediate observations that the ship made itself disappear by the method suggested—just as he would later say again in "The Enterprise Incident" (TOS) and The Undiscovered Country—and no doubt overexplaining it to Kirk, in typical Spock fashion. After all, Spock knows firsthand of at least two other ways such a trick could be accomplished: through the illusions of the Talosians and/or the transmutative powers of the Thasians...:vulcan:

:shrug:

-MMoM:D
 
One thing I find interesting, is that the show team made the deflector more like the TOS design compared to John Eaves’ submitted design. Eaves’ original design had dual antennas like every other DSC ship
 
Two deflector prongs?

What year is this? 2238? (*Yells and shakes fist at interstellar gas cloud*)
 
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