(US) Do you support a $15 minimum wage?

[Kai "the spy"]

Meanwhile, countries like Germany take the opposite tack where labor and corporate interests work together in the best interests of their members and employees, because they know that happy and secure workers are productive workers, and you can hardly argue that Germany is not a successful economy.

You should be careful in the future using Germany as a good example. I know, compared to the U.S., the situation in Germany is still great, but Angela Merkel, and Gerhard Schröder before her, worked hard to implement the same (or similar) policies concering worker's rights and social security as American politics since Reagan.

We also have seen an artificial weakening of unions and employee representatives, we've seen a drastic increase of low wage jobs with less privileges replacing better paid jobs with more privileges, and the success of the German economy in the last decade and a half has been largely due to the export surplus, as in having the wages stagnate to get relatively cheap labor to manufactur products for export, but with these lower wages people can't buy as many products, like products that would have to get imported from other countries.

Normally, this would get relativized by upgrading the currency, but Germany has the same currency as many other European countries suffering from Germany's dumping wages, and these countries with their deficits keep the Euro low for the benefit of Germany.

It's been a public debate for years now that the economic boom doesn't reach the middle and lower classes, as well as the fact that Germany is basically exploiting its European neighbours. Merkel and her fans in the media try to silence that debate with the simplified "Germany is doing fine" statements, as well as arguing that "it's not Germany's fault that those other countries don't produce anything Germans want to buy", but the dissatisfaction is getting stronger, and is only slowed down by the second big political party being too close to Merkel's policies, as well.

You should probably try to find a better place to work. An assistant manager shouldn't be making minimum wage, whatever that minimum is.
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Easy to say, but there simply are no better jobs available. I'm preparing for a course of advanced job training right now, and I can't look at the job offers in the papers because it's too demoralizing. All offers in my field are part-time jobs which would be better than minimum wage, but by cutting my hours I'd still be left with a smaller income.

So your boss has given you all the responsibilities he doesn't want for the same pay? That's pretty shitty. I wouldn't stay there another day if I had other options.

At least, you added that last part.

Actually, the owner and the manager are two different people, and the manager can only work inside the budget given by the owner (who only comes by once or twice per month).

 

[psCargile]

You don't need a body of people who have no idea what they are doing determine wages. The market decides. If an employer can't solicit workers at a low wage, they have to raise that wage and offer other incentives. That is why I support no minimum. You don't have too. It corrects for itself.

 

[BillJ]

You don't need a body of people who have no idea what they are doing determine wages. The market decides. If an employer can't solicit workers at a low wage, they have to raise that wage and offer other incentives. That is why I support no minimum. You don't have too. It corrects for itself.

Which is bullshit or else we wouldn't be facing an economy with no real wage growth over the last thirty years.

 

[feek61]

You don't need a body of people who have no idea what they are doing determine wages. The market decides. If an employer can't solicit workers at a low wage, they have to raise that wage and offer other incentives. That is why I support no minimum. You don't have too. It corrects for itself.

Exactly!

 

[Robert Maxwell]

You don't need a body of people who have no idea what they are doing determine wages. The market decides. If an employer can't solicit workers at a low wage, they have to raise that wage and offer other incentives. That is why I support no minimum. You don't have too. It corrects for itself.

What in the world do you think "the market" is? Some kind of magic?

Let's try that again:

If an employer can't solicit workers at a fair, living wage, they don't deserve to stay in business. Human society is not a machine that exists to grease the wheels of capitalism; it's the other way around. Businesses must adapt to behave humanely; human beings must not be forced to sink to whatever depths the capital class considers necessary to line their pockets.

 

[feek61]

What in the world do you think "the market" is? Some kind of magic?

Let's try that again:

If an employer can't solicit workers at a fair, living wage, they don't deserve to stay in business. Human society is not a machine that exists to grease the wheels of capitalism; it's the other way around. Businesses must adapt to behave humanely; human beings must not be forced to sink to whatever depths the capital class considers necessary to line their pockets.

No, the free market determines fair wages and price for goods & services. Artificially increased wages only will raise the cost of goods & services and doesn't get the economy anywhere. Competition and increased productivity is what drives the market and causes the need for higher wages.

 

[psCargile]

Each person decides their value to themselves and their society, and to their employer. You want higher wages, you need to be worth more to your employer through education, job skill and experience, and dedication. If your employer will not pay you what you think you are worth, you are free to find one that will.

Economies are simply exchanges of value. When prices and wages are higher than their value, it damages that economy, and it will correct itself.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

No, the free market determines fair wages and price for goods & services. Artificially increased wages only will raise the cost of goods and doesn't get the economy anywhere. Competition and increased productivity is what drives the market and causes the need for higher wages.

So how come American workers haven't benefited from decades of massively increased productivity? Why have wages continued to fall or stagnate?

Each person decides their value to themselves and their society, and to their employer. You want higher wages, you need to worth more to your employer thought education, job skill and experience, and dedication. If your employer will not pay you what you think you are worth, you are free to find one that will.

And if you have lots of education but no experience, so nobody will hire you, what then? Can't wait to hear your solution for that.

Economies are simply exchanges of value. When prices and wages are higher than their vslue

I hope the communists didn't drag you away from your keyboard mid-sentence.

Economies are simply exchanges of value. When prices and wages are higher than their value, it damages that economy, and it will correct itself.

Ah, you fixed it. Also, that's not how the economy works. Just because you took an intro economics class doesn't mean you know how it works in the real world.

 

[scotthm]

And then you get the denialists--let's be honest about what they are--thinking this status quo is fine, that people are paid poorly and have crummy jobs because they're lazy and don't work hard enough.

If by "denialist" you mean people who don't agree with your point of view then you're wrong. I don't think for one minute that people who work for minimum wage are lazy or lacking in work ethic. There are a wide variety of reasons one might work for minimum wage and being lazy is probably the least of these.

Another thing to consider is how unrealistic is to think that some people can learn new skills. My mom is 60 years old. How many 60 year olds are going to really be able to adapt to new skills.

Virtually all of them that are mentally sound and sufficiently motivated.

You want the one with the economic power to have fair dealings with the one who does not have it? ROFLOL

Yes, that is what I want.
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[psCargile]

Well Robert, if you study for a field that's over saturated, and not one that needs people, not my problem. Your problem.

I've been poor. I've worked shit jobs. I got a good paying job now, and no college education. I'm not even using my military technical experience in avionics. So, it's hard for you to speak to me against my employment experience. I used capitalism to pull myself out of poverty. As have many.

I even used to be liberal and a little left-wing. Didn't work out for me.

 

[Scout101]

Not sure how it works out in the long run. Give everyone a $5 bump to $15, businesses are going to raise prices to cover the labor costs (while also laying off people, so they'll likely come out ahead). people don't have any more buying power than they did before, and it's probably worse. Giving people a bump to $15 while nothing else changes would likely be very useful, but I can't see one happening without the other.

isn't there also a corresponding bump that has to happen throughout most of the pay scale, too? If I'm making $15 in a world of $10 minimum wage, going to be pretty pissed if everyone else gets bumped to $15 and my pay doesn't change to reflect that I have actual marketable skills that were worth 150% of minimum wage the day before. Guy making $20 before is looking at the guy that just went from $15 to $20, etc. Basically, just giant inflation. everyone has more money, but it's worth less, so nothing changed. meanwhile, CEO still makes $5k/hour (or much more, sadly) and complains that he's gotta pay someone an extra buck and having a hard time making a go of it.

Whole system is broken, but don't see how changing minimum wage drastically without other huge changes is going to fix things.

I get the concept of living wage, but internally also struggle when I see arguments that a single wage earner can't afford a 2 bedroom apartment on minimum wage. Are you supposed to? They probably can't afford a 3 bedroom house and a BMW either, but they'd certainly be nice things to have. I get it, single mother with kids, etc. but that's the reality of having to get multiple jobs, or share an apartment, or live with family, etc if you're in that situation and are unskilled labor. I'd rather see a 'guaranteed income' situation from the government in place of welfare programs than raise the minimum wage for that type of situation, and it would likely be cheaper to administer too, but OMG Socialism, so that won't get much traction.

 

[suarezguy]

Gosh, I guess you guys are right, we just have to keep the minimum wage at poverty levels otherwise we'll destroy the economy.

Or we could see what the effects are of having it at a much higher level and/or raise it to the level of Canada or $9 or $10.

The article says nothing of the kind. Noting it is a preliminary study and the full effects are not yet known.

That wasn't the way it was described by Robert, he said that the effects of raising the wage to the $15 level were minimal (you did include that it was a preliminary study but not how partial it was).

What do people think all this rising political tension and conflict is about?

The estimated electoral turnout in 2016 was under 55%, fairly low in both absolute terms and compared to other elections, to me that shows that not enough people are participating in politics rather than that conflict is too high. But yeah, of course dissatisfaction about economic policies and inequalities empowers populists like Trump and Sanders, it would be the only way that you would get the Democratic Party talking about a $12 or $15 minimum wage or trade pacts being rejected which if I'm not mistaken you consider to be good things.

 

[Jayson1]

I'm still curious as to were all the customers are supose to come from if nobody can afford anything a small business has to sale? I guess a rise in crime isn't any concern either. Technology replacing humans are also going to destroy many jobs but at least people dying in the streets can take comfort in knowing that the system is working for a few people at least.

Jason

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Well Robert, if you study for a field that's over saturated, and not one that needs people, not my problem. Your problem.

Your compassion is overwhelming. But I didn't say anything about which field, I said the problem was a lack of experience. What would you propose to do about that, if nobody will hire or train you?

I've been poor. I've worked shit jobs. I got a good paying job now, and no college education. I'm not even using my military technical experience in avionics. So, it's hard for you to speak to me against my employment experience. I used capitalism to pull myself out of poverty. As have many.

Wow, good for you. Guess what? So did I. I've been very poor, and yes, I worked my way up--and I don't have a college degree, either. What I do have are skills that are in demand that I get paid plenty of money for. I also recognize that a lot of this was down to luck and good fortune: having the right knowledge at the right time, knowing the right people, etc. I wonder, how many people helped you along the way that you now casually dismiss as "capitalism pulled me out of poverty"? How often did you benefit from luck that you now assign to your own hard work? People who consider themselves completely self-made are typically kidding themselves, downplaying all the lucky breaks, fortunate opportunities, and other happy accidents of life that helped them along the way.

I even used to be liberal and a little left-wing. Didn't work out for me.

Strange, working out pretty well for me.

 

[psCargile]

Other than being told about job openings, no, no other help. Oh wait, good employment references. Guess that counts, but it does fall back on work ethic. I personally don't want to be offered a job or position only because I know someone. If I can't do the job, I'm not taking it. It's fraudulent.

If no one will hire or train you (why wouldn't they, especially at entry level?) Then you got to take a shit job. You got to stock shelves, run a lawnmower, flip burgers, deliver pizza, be a security guard, clean houses, or serve coffee. What ever you can do.

You know this.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Other than being told about job openings, no, no other help. Oh wait, good employment references. Guess that counts, but it does fall back on work ethic. I personally don't want to be offered a job or position only because I know someone. If I can't do the job, I'm not taking it. It's fraudulent.

You do realize references are "knowing someone"? Often times it is the difference between getting a job... and not. I sure hope you've never used a reference to help you land a job, since it would be "fraudulent."

If no one will hire or train you (why wouldn't they, especially at entry level?)

Are you serious??

Then you got to take a shit job. You got to stock shelves, run a lawnmower, flip burgers, deliver pizza, be a security guard, clean houses, or serve coffee. What ever you can do.

So what do you do when you are doing all that and you still don't make enough to cover basic necessities? You're working 3 jobs, making crap money, you barely sleep, you have no luxuries, but it's just not enough because the jobs don't pay enough.

Just shit out of luck, huh?

You know this.

I have certainly gotten a clear impression of you, yes.

 

[BillJ]

If no one will hire or train you (why wouldn't they, especially at entry level?) Then you got to take a shit job. You got to stock shelves, run a lawnmower, flip burgers, deliver pizza, be a security guard, clean houses, or serve coffee. What ever you can do.

No one is arguing that. What is being argued is that folks that work hard at those kinds of jobs should be paid a wage that is capable of supporting them.

The funny thing is I see no criticism of the people at the top who are abusing the system to further their wealth, while people on the lowest rungs are treated like pariahs for wanting a living wage. Seriously, $15 an hour is putting no one on Easy Street.

 

[BillJ]

That wasn't the way it was described by Robert, he said that the effects of raising the wage to the $15 level were minimal (you did include that it was a preliminary study but not how partial it was).

Did you not actually click on the link before responding? You know, work from an educated point of view...

 

[Robert Maxwell]

No one is arguing that. What is being argued is that folks that work hard at those kinds of jobs should be paid a wage that is capable of supporting them.

The funny thing is I see no criticism of the people at the top who are abusing the system to further their wealth, while people on the lowest rungs are treated like pariahs for wanting a living wage. Seriously, $15 an hour is putting no one on Easy Street.

People with the power to vote themselves raises while laying off others obviously deserve every penny. That's capitalism, friendo. Moochers need to fuck off and die.

 

[Nyotarules]

You don't need a body of people who have no idea what they are doing determine wages. The market decides. If an employer can't solicit workers at a low wage, they have to raise that wage and offer other incentives. That is why I support no minimum. You don't have too. It corrects for itself.

The market, this invisible market which means in the real world someone with larger pockets decides how much of the little guy they can screw and get away with. When the 1% has made the 99% so dirt poor and destitute that there is no one there to buy their products, that is the day they, the 1%, will turn on each other like economic cannibals.