Unseen TOS....

[Warped9]

If scientific principles are universal throughout the universe then it stands to reason that different species could still arrive at similar conclusions/solutions for like problems. Nacelles for FTL propulsion are definitely not the only solution, but they could well be reasonably effective enough to be adopted commonly.

 

[blssdwlf]

I don’t think there is any episode of TOS where the script makes it clearer Kirk is dealing with more technologically advanced beings. The whole awe and wonder about the Eymorg ion propulsion is as specific as anyone could get that these are not engines like Enterprise’s. Why in the world anyone would expect to see nacelles on such a model baffles me.

Just to be clear, you're saying Eymorg ship shouldn't have nacelles (which the filming model doesn't). Cool.

As I have said over and over and over, nacelles portray a similar level of technology. People can go on half cock, trying to prove some misguided point about there being no nacelles on ships, by mentioning ships on which nacelles would make no sense in the context of the story. I hope anyone reading this thread sees that for what it is - pointless argumentativeness.

Well we apparently are an argumentative bunch. Arguably Mudd's Class-J and the later Woden are of a similar level of technology.

This conversation was about whether Klingons - who were portrayed from the start as being a technologically similar and thus viable adversary for the Enterprise - should have had nacelles on any ship designed for “Errand of Mercy”. Klingons were not said to be far more advanced. They were strongly inferred to be of similar capabilities. That is totally different than the Eymorg, who baffled Kirk et al with their capabilities.

The design should follow the script. It should visualize what the writers wrote, to help the viewer understand the story.

I thought the conversation was that Warped9 was going to attempt to ignore everything in the future and only imagine the "Errand of Mercy" ship based on what had been been done in TOS. Since TOS has such a variety of nacelled and nacelle-less ships it would make sense to just lean into what MJ actually built for the battlecruiser.
The why they should or should not have nacelles argument doesn't change the end result that there is a lot of variety in TOS (unless you switch to TOS-R.)

 

[Warped9]

When both the Romulans and Klingons were introduced there was no indication they would be semi-recurring villains. Yet both were depicted at a roughly similar level of technology as Earth and later the Federation. In the Romulans case Wah Chang designed the BoP in a way that echoed Earth’s technology in that the ship had nacelles as propulsion units. Two years later Jefferies would design the D7 for the Klingons who had since become semi-recurring villains since they first appeared in “Errand Of Mercy.”

Strictly speaking I should ignore the D7 since its design is two years away, but nonetheless it does follow the designers’ general mindset that races with roughly similar level of technology seem to prefer ships with nacelles albeit of widely different forms.

Now never mind the D7 momentarily and let’s look at how the Klingons are depicted. Despite their warlike and militaristic character they come across as being on a similar technological level as the Federation such that nether side displays an unwavering confidence they are technologically superior to the other, the Klingons’ boastfulness notwithstanding. This leads me to think Jefferies’ would have designed something for the Klingons somewhat similar to what he did two years later. And what better way to visually telegraph a similar level of technology than to depict an alien ship roughly similar to that being used by the Federation?

In this case the simplest solution is the most likely, and not just because almost no Klingon backstory is in the story to convincingly suggest otherwise.

 

[Dukhat]

For me the issue would be: If a scene was actually depicted showing the Enterprise in battle with a Klingon warship, or a fleet of Starfleet ships against a fleet of Klingon ships, then I wouldn't want the Klingon ships to resemble the Starfleet ships all that much, because then the audience would be confused as to whose ships are whose.

 

[aridas sofia]

“Arguably Mudd's Class-J and the later Woden are of a similar level of technology.”

Mudd’s ship is an indistinct blob that may or may not have nacelles. The Woden is a 1996, Earth-launched, atomic powered ship that by every visual cue is indistinct from the Botany Bay. Arguably the first is of a similar level of technology but we can tell almost nothing of its shape. The second, since it uses the exact same footage as that of a 1996 ship and we are told Zefram Cochrane died/was lost 150 years pre-TOS at the age of 87, ie was born 237 years pre-2265 in 2028, Earth could not have had warp drive in 1996. So Botany Bay, and Woden, could not have warp drive. Which means those ships should not have nacelles. And even if you want to say Woden somehow should be of the same technology level as Enterprise, you are left with the fact it looks identical to Botany Bay. If it was some heretofore unseen ship without nacelles, you’d have a point. But we know what ships like Woden are because we have been shown them before and told what they are. And the truth is, if there was any desire to give it an impression of having equal tech to Enterprise, they simply could have pulled out the Botany Bay model and slapped nacelles on it — like they did with the Tholian ship. But they didn’t, because Woden was not supposed to be any threat to M-5.

 

[Warped9]

It’s also clear that some things done on TOS were obvious cost-saving measures, things they would not have done given a bit more time and money. Not showing a vessel is one thing (and, yes, not always necessary). Reusing stock footage when story dictates something else is another. A small indistinct blob on the viewscreem, stock footage and minimal tweaking of a previously used miniature are all cost saving measures that can be too obvious as to not be truly consistent with demand of the story.

 

[aridas sofia]

I loved the little blobs. To me it added realism. What kind of image does a sub get of its adversary? A little blob on a sonar screen.

 

[BK613]

Nacelles mean similar levels of technology? Really? So airships and starships are the same level of technology?
Bunk.
Nacelles just tell you that there might be engines contained within. Barring some additional information, the quality of those engines are not specified at all by the appearance of nacelles.

 

[aridas sofia]

Warp nacelles. And I am talking what I suspect was the intent of the designer Jefferies, not some absolute rubric against which all technology can be measured.

 

[Redfern]

Less debate, more "ship pr0n"!

 

[Warped9]

Ultimately it comes down to interpretation. How I read the tea leaves will likely be different than how someone else reads them.

For the record, as my head cleared some yesterday evening, I managed to fashion the nacelles, er, power pods. All the major components of the design are done and it’s now a matter of detailing. There are times when I’m tempted to go with something more elaborate, but I reign myself in by remembering these miniatures cannot be overly complex to build for their intended purposes and scant screen time. Nonetheless I try to incorporate little subtleties that add nuance to the overall simplicity of the design—a familiar element of Matt Jefferies’ and Wah Chang’s approach.

 

[Henoch]

Glad you're feeling better!

 

[blssdwlf]

Mudd’s ship is an indistinct blob that may or may not have nacelles.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what is shown on screen.

The Woden is a 1996, Earth-launched, atomic powered ship that by every visual cue is indistinct from the Botany Bay. Arguably the first is of a similar level of technology but we can tell almost nothing of its shape. The second, since it uses the exact same footage as that of a 1996 ship and we are told Zefram Cochrane died/was lost 150 years pre-TOS at the age of 87, ie was born 237 years pre-2265 in 2028, Earth could not have had warp drive in 1996. So Botany Bay, and Woden, could not have warp drive. Which means those ships should not have nacelles. And even if you want to say Woden somehow should be of the same technology level as Enterprise, you are left with the fact it looks identical to Botany Bay. If it was some heretofore unseen ship without nacelles, you’d have a point. But we know what ships like Woden are because we have been shown them before and told what they are.

It sounds like you have it mixed up... The Botany Bay is a DY-100, 1996, Earth-launched, atomic-powered ship that is told to us by dialogue. It is also "much older" than the similar in appearance DY-500 according to "Space Seed" which allows for later generations of that ship design to look like the Botany Bay to have different technology.

The only thing we know about the Woden is that is an "old-style ore freighter converted to automation" and the re-use of a ship looking like the Botany Bay fits the script. We know "old-style" automated stations like that seen in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" has equipment compatible with the Enterprise so the Woden can have similar level of technology.

Like on Mudd's Class-J, we'll have to agree to disagree on what is shown on screen.

 

[trynda1701]

I like the idea that despite the stock footage of the Botany Bay, the Woden could have been a DY-500!

@Warped9

In regards to the "Errand of Mercy" design you've shown us and are currently now detailing, you mentioned another design. Do you think that the EofM ship could have been reused (if it had been built) for "Fridays' Child", or are you considering keeping the other design for use in FC? Or the later episode "The Trouble with Tribbles", because in FC, the Klingon vessel is described as "a Klingon warship, cutting directly across our path", and in TTWT, Koloths' ship is described as a Klingon battle cruiser that has approached Deep Space Station K-7?

It would hint at a variety of Klingon ships, if, as this project is about, the producers had a bit more time and money. And they did build K-7. But that could have meant reuse of either the EoM or FC designs you come up with!

 

[Warped9]

To say my design could be reused in “Friday’s Child” is just being more specific than saying this miniature could be reused in some future episode. Certainly the Romulan BoP was to be reused if it hadn’t gone missing.

The other design concept I had in mind might be somewhat simpler in form. When I’m done the current one I may try to flesh out the other idea a bit more.

 

[publiusr]

I don’t think there is any episode of TOS where the script makes it clearer Kirk is dealing with more technologically advanced beings. The whole awe and wonder about the Eymorg.

The design should follow the script.

I agree.

That’s why I feel **only they** should have had a ringship…it is the only design more elegant than Enterprise herself:
https://blog.trekcore.com/2018/01/review-eaglemoss-star-trek-uss-enterprise-xcv-330-ringship/

TMP would have to be remastered again to put a Daedalus in place of Declaration…though the TMP warp ring fits a ringship perfectly.

But I repeat myself.

Oh well

 

[Warped9]

Will try to post something soon.

Meanwhile I was thinking...

Matt: "Jeff, you done making that little ship I sent you a sketch for? It's been two weeks."
Jeff: "Oh, yeah, boss. It's right here."
Matt: "Good... Uh, this is great...amazing, but...you realize this is gonna be on the screen for like two or three seconds maybe?"
Jeff: "Really? Hmm... Well maybe they can use it for something else down the road?"
Matt: "Yeah. This is nice. I'm sure we can use this again sometime."

 

[Albertese]

So, with reference to Mudd's Class-J, I keep seeing:

....

... I’m pretty sure a model would have been built and not a knife scratching some film stock.

....

Is this established somewhere? I can kinda see it, but I don't know where it comes from. I have wondered if it might have been maybe a model from some other cheap production that was photographed out of focus to obscure the provenance. Some B-movie from the mid-60s also? I just wanna know if the scratched filmstock is definitely the real case.

--Alex

 

[Warped9]

After all these years, and with so many things revealed about TOS, if there had been some sort of model used for Mudd’s ship it would most likely be known. But it really does seem like it was merely some form of cheap photographic trickery to create an indistinct glowing blob on the screen.

 

[Warped9]

Not yet finished, but something to look at. I figure the main hull is about four decks thick. That means this is smaller than the Enterprise’s saucer hull.

The Klingons like that predatory look. And this one has something of a submarine vibe to it.