Unseen TOS....

[Warped9]

That’s an interesting thought exercise. I have the feeling that the since the TOS Gorn were big, slow lizards, their ship design would have probably followed suit. Something simple, yet brutal.

I would be trying to think about how the Gorn see themselves. I don’t think it should be too evocative of a lizard. It shouldn’t be obvious, but as you suggest something that has the right connotations.

Look how the original Klingon D7 doesn’t really gel with what they did with Klingon ships later. The D7 has a grace to it’s design even as it also looks ghostly or wraith like. It has an animalistic quality to it while not looking like an animal. Later Klingon ships were dark, heavy, clanky and austere looking as they redefined the Klingons. After the D7 and K’Tinga their ships were no longer, well, beautiful to look at. They now look like heavy machinery.

The only thing avian like about the TOS Romulan BoP is the upswept pylons accentuated by the bird-of-prey graphic. Otherwise the BoP looks rather manta ray like with a suggestion of submarine to it. As I said upthread the Romulan BoP has a pulp sci-fi look to it largely because of that tailfin which serves no obvious function other than appearance.

 

[drt]

I would be trying to think about how the Gorn see themselves. I don’t think it should be too evocative of a lizard. It shouldn’t be obvious, but as you suggest something that has the right connotations.

Not so much lizard like, but sort of solid and brutish. Maybe something as simple as a cylinder with warp engines.

Look how the original Klingon D7 doesn’t really gel with what they did with Klingon ships later. The D7 has a grace to it’s design even as it also looks ghostly or wraith like. It has an animalistic quality to it while not looking like an animal.

“Ghostly or wraith like” definitely fits their sneakier (if you will) tactics and disposition in TOS.

 

[StarCruiser]

I like the bow on approach shot. We never saw it quite that way in any of the episodes. I can hear the Romulan theme music in my head.

CRACK! And that one's out a here!

Out of the ball park, so to say.

 

[publiusr]

What Franz Joseph came up with in his Technical Manual might be closer to what could work more convincingly in TOS.

There is some fan art perhaps before the manual that just showed modules being moved into place by small craft…fanzine art I think.

Can’t wait to see your take on the Gorn.

 

[Warped9]

Can’t wait to see your take on the Gorn.

Some of what drt said has prompted ideas I’m tossing around in my head.

 

[Warped9]

CRACK! And that one's out a here!

Out of the ball park, so to say.

Thanks!

Of course I try to mimic the TOS aesthetic albeit cleaned up. And the starfield is actually a screencap from “Balance Of Terror.”

 

[Warped9]

The fact that the bulk of the Starbase is apparently planet bound makes me wonder if you would have one major orbital facility for ship maintenance and repair or multiple smaller ones. Note that in TMP the orbital drydock was not physically part of a bigger complex, but rather a separate structure orbiting some distance away.

Hmm…

Another thing to keep in mind. This project is founded on the conceit of what could be feasible if TOS had had a bit more time and money in hand and what could they have done at the time.

It’s safe to assume they wouldn’t (or couldn’t afford to) have fabricated something for the 11 footer. But they could have have fashioned something to work in tandem with the 33in. miniature sufficient for a brief establishing shot. Also, it would have to be the 33 incher because the AMT model kit was not yet available to be utilized in any first season episodes. Just as well because the 33 incher was a better and more detailed replica than the AMT kit even if it differed in some respects from the 11 footer (most notably in the contours of the saucer hull).

Hmm…

I also think it would have been cool if later, when we saw Scotty’s quarters in “By Any Other Name,” they could have displayed the 33 incher there. It fits with Scotty’s love for the Enterprise that he could have a replica on display in his quarters.

 

[STEPhon IT]

^^ You raise some interesting points.

At the time of TOS’ production no one knows when the Federation was established or when the Vulcans were first encountered. Both fanon and TNG: FC peg the Vulcans as the first species Earth encounters, although fanon and “official” Trek differ on how it happened (I prefer the fanon viewpoint).

But subtext in TOS suggests the Federation might be only some decades old rather than a century. And Vulcans might not have been the first species Earth encountered. And/or the Vulcans simply elected not to get involved in Earth’s war with an unknown enemy. One can speculate on whether the Vulcans might have suspected who Earth was fighting yet chose to keep their thoughts to themselves and avoid risking any possible conflict with their newly encountered “friends.”

It does sort of make sense that Vulcans were the first species encountered if we accept 40 Eridani as the Vulcan home system. At about 16 light years distant it’s pretty close to Earth. TOS seems to suggest that Earth moved out into space on our own (an understandable viewpoint from a 1960’s perspective) and that Earth and Vulcan were roughly on the same technological level. But later “official” Trek rewrites that as Vulcan definitely having a significant technological edge early on and nursemaiding Earth along. If so then doesn’t Vulcan have its own form of Prime Directive and are they not violating it by revealing themselves to a technologically inferior species and sharing advanced knowledge with them? That never struck me as well thought out.

I thought "First Contact"'s Vulcan revelation of Earth's first encounter with Vulcans was lazy and uninspiring. I'd rather a silhouette of the first aliens and allow our imaginations to run wild on who it might be? I like thinking humans worked and earned their stripes in outer space and didn't require assistance from Extraterrestrial beings.

I’ve been looking at sci-fi and conceptual space art from the 1950s/60s. The era’s concept of a large space station is pretty much always a wheel. In that respect Franz Joseph was in the ball park with his Starfleet Headquarters concept found in his Star Fleet Technical Manual.

We know Starbase 10 proper was planet bound. The chart on Commodore Stone’s wall suggests several ships currently at the base (supposedly). I think that really suggests some facility or facilities in orbit to service those ships given the idea in TOS is that starships generally do not land. And when I’m referring to starships I mean that in the broader sense of the word and not just Constitution-class ships. I don’t believe for a second that all those ships listed on Stone’s chart were Constitution-class. I’m not interested in deciphering that chart—I’m simply interested in what it suggests in terms of starbase operations.


Concurrently I’m also musing on what form the Gorn ship could take. Hmm…

That episode never established the title "Constitution - Class", and no other episodes of TOS quite frankly, so any thinking other than those ships being sister/brother ships of the Enterprise is drown in retroactive thinking. Stone's facility is very large, it's possible there are other rooms where there's charts for other ships for their own designation.

 

[aridas sofia]

It goes without saying that episode established there was a NCC-1700. And that phaser diagram DID establish “Constitution Class”. Make of that what you will. If there is a 1700, and Enterprise’s engineer is studying the phaser diagram of Constitution Class starships, then it is not proven, but very strongly inferred, that Enterprise is Constitution Class, and Constitution is 1700.

For anything else to be true, he is studying phasers from another class, and 1700 is either another class, or an unnamed ship built previous to Enterprise of Enterprise’s class.

But at this point, what does it matter? We know it was on the list of starships the production staff used to establish other ships like Enterprise- ships mentioned and shown, like Lexington, Excalibur, Potemkin, Exeter, Defiant, etc. What is the actual likelihood it was NOT intended to be the lead, class ship of Enterprise’s class?

 

[blssdwlf]

It goes without saying that episode established there was a NCC-1700. And that phaser diagram DID establish “Constitution Class”. Make of that what you will. If there is a 1700, and Enterprise’s engineer is studying the phaser diagram of Constitution Class starships, then it is not proven, but very strongly inferred, that Enterprise is Constitution Class, and Constitution is 1700.

For anything else to be true, he is studying phasers from another class, and 1700 is either another class, or an unnamed ship built previous to Enterprise of Enterprise’s class.

The only way you'd know that the phaser diagram was for a Constitution class is to see the prop behind-the-scenes. The class name is obscured by the monitor in the episode. If you were just watching the episode without that behind-the-scenes knowledge you'd have no idea what Scotty was looking at.

 

[Warped9]

Stone's chart shows only registry numbers without names--a neat little way of sidestepping matching up registry numbers with names. The only registry number on that chart we know for certain (at that point) is the Enterprise.

One can assume that chart is referring to starships currently at the base for maintenance/repair or perhaps just temporarily stopped over. But that isn't a given since we don't know how much thought went into the chart and what it was meant to convey to the viewer. It could also be referring to starships currently undergoing maintenance/repair yet not all of them are happening at Starebase 11--they could be being serviced at other bases and the chart is merely an update.

After Stone refers to that chart he next mentions the name Intrepid. The implication is the Intrepid is indeed berthed at Starbase 11. And thus we know of one other starship that must match up with one of the registries on the chart. What we don't know, with any real certainty, is whether the Intrepid is the same class as the Enterprise. We will learn later (re: "The Immunity Syndrome") the Intrepid and Enterprise are most likely of the same class.

It's not resonable to believe that all the ships listed on that chart are the same class as the Enterprise. Given the limited number of ships supposedly the same as the Enterprise how could so many of them would be berthed at Starbase 11 at the same time? The chart makes somewhat more sense if it's referring to ships being serviced somewhere else besides Starbase 11--the implication being Enterprise class ships were spread out far afield.

The Enterprise herself introduced us to the idea that her sister ships were most likely of the 1700 series, but thats not an absolutely given even if it is a neat-and-tidy idea. But that idea is potentially blown out of the water on two occasions. In Season 1 (re: "Courtmartial") reference is made to the starship Republic number 1371. That means one of two things: either the Republic is the same class as the Enterprise and such ships don't automatically have a 1700 series registry or the Republic is actually of a different class and as such does not sport a 1700 series registry. The next bomb goes off in "The Doomsday Machine" when we see the Constellation with registry 1017. WTF!--does this mean for certain Enterprise class ships don't all have 1700 series registries?

Now we really start reading the tiniest of tea leaves. On the face of it the AMT model kit used to represent the Constellation could most likely have been meant to represent a ship identical to the Enterprise in the most cost effective way possible at the time--they certainly weren't going to deliberately damage the valuable 33 incher do depict a wrecked starship. On the other hand if we allow ourselves to indluge in hair splitting we can see there are notable detail differences between the AMT model and the Enterprise onscreen. Could those differences indicate the Constellation is not actually the same class as the Enterprise? Maybe it could be an older class of ship and thus explain why it doesn't have a 1700 series registry? And if so then maybe that lends weight to the idea the previously mentioned starship Republic 1371 is also not the same class as the Enterprise.

Througout the rest of the series we hear and see other starships referred to yet none of their registry numbers are mentioned or seen. Visually, because they used stock footage of the Enterprise, the implication of the ones actually seen is they are indeed of the same class as the Enterprise. It is only in later publications and references that numbers are assigned to the names, but strictly speaking none of that really carries much weight because none of it appeared within any of TOS' seventy-nine episodes. It's all interpretation.

One small possible exception: because footage of the wrecked Constellation is used to depict the wrecked Excalibur in "The Ultimate Computer" could that mean the Excalibur is of the same class as the older Constellation? Then again a reuse of an Enterprise stock shot was used to depict the Excalibur in formation with other starships so that creates a contradiction. Make of that what you will.

Note I'm not bothering to refer to whatever TOS-R did. Thats decades after the fact and has zero bearing on what the creators of TOS were doing or what they intended. TOS-R is nothing but sloppy retconning I have zero interest in indulging.

 

[Warped9]

The only way you'd know that the phaser diagram was for a Constitution class is to see the prop behind-the-scenes. The class name is obscured by the monitor in the episode. If you were just watching the episode without that behind-the-scenes knowledge you'd have no idea what Scotty was looking at.

True, but the diagram was on the screen even if it was partially obsured. The intention is there no matter what it was supposed to mean. We never really see the port side of the 11 footer on the screen, but we accept it's supposed to be symmetrically identical to the always seen starboard side. We never see a bathroom on the Enterprise, but we accept they have to be there to support the reality of the universe depicted on the screen.

 

[blssdwlf]

True, but the diagram was on the screen even if it was partially obscured. The intention is there no matter what it was supposed to mean. We never really see the port side of the 11 footer on the screen, but we accept it's supposed to be symmetrically identical to the always seen starboard side. We never see a bathroom on the Enterprise, but we accept they have to be there to support the reality of the universe depicted on the screen.

Actually those are three different things though.
1. The 11' model behind-the-scenes is unfinished on one side, yet on screen we have seen the Enterprise from both sides. We do not need to argue or accept that the 11' model should be identical on both sides as we've been shown both sides (through camera trickery).
2. The diagram with the phaser label and Constitution-class has the label and class partially-obscured. You have to argue to accept the behind-the-scenes prop as there is no other evidence to support it on screen.
3. The bathroom is never seen on the Enterprise and we have to argue to accept that TOS's humans have normal biological functions as there is no evidence to support it on screen.

I get the intent but Aridas' assertion that the diagram establishes the class and phaser diagram isn't supported on screen.

From that standpoint, you could interpret the Starbase repair chart however you want to what class of ships they are as not all were were established on screen. I'd put several repair docks in space and maybe one or two on the planet in an angle not visible from the Starbase. IMHO.

 

[Warped9]

I think it's reasonable to accept Scotty is looking at a main phaser component for a Constitution-class starship. I agree beyond that we don't know for a certainty this establishes the Enterprise as a Constitution-class ship.

But aridas asks a fair question: why would Scotty be looking at a phaser component for a different class of vessel than the one he is serving on? And why would they put that schematic on the screen if not to subtly imply Scotty is studying a component of a class of ship of which the Enterprise belongs to?

 

[blssdwlf]

I think it's reasonable to accept Scotty is looking at a main phaser component for a Constitution-class starship. I agree beyond that we don't know for a certainty this establishes the Enterprise as a Constitution-class ship.

But aridas asks a fair question: why would Scotty be looking at a phaser component for a different class of vessel than the one he is serving on? And why would they put that schematic on the screen if not to subtly imply Scotty is studying a component of a class of ship of which the Enterprise belongs to?

Which leads to why would Scotty be studying something he knows like the back of his hand? From an on-screen POV, Scotty could be looking at some random new device that was just installed on the Enterprise that he is needing to familiarize with. We only debate the phaser and class because of the bts props label.

I don't want to derail your thread so I'll stop here as I understand now that your project includes also Unseen Props of TOS as well.

 

[aridas sofia]

“I get the intent but Aridas' assertion that the diagram establishes the class and phaser diagram isn't supported on screen.”

aridas did not assert the diagram establishes the class and phaser diagram, whatever that means. aridas asserts the preponderance of evidence establishes the producers’ intent. If it didn’t matter to them, why didn’t they fill the phaser diagram with Lorem Ipsum placeholder text instead of actually removing whatever text the pre-existing USAF schematic had and replacing it with pseudo Starfleet nomenclature? It certainly would have been easier, less expensive, and required less valuable time. Instead, somebody went to the trouble of finding one of the names from that “list of starship names” memo, copyfit it, typeset it, and pasted it up. Somebody making the show apparently cared - alot - about something that wasn’t going to be visible onscreen.

Maybe they wanted it to be right just in case it was shown onscreen. In which case, it might be better to just assume it had been, because we know fully well what’s on it.

 

[blssdwlf]

“I get the intent but Aridas' assertion that the diagram establishes the class and phaser diagram isn't supported on screen.”

aridas did not assert the diagram establishes the class and phaser diagram, whatever that means. aridas asserts the preponderance of evidence establishes the producers’ intent. If it didn’t matter to them, why didn’t they fill the phaser diagram with Lorem Ipsum placeholder text instead of actually removing whatever text the pre-existing USAF schematic had and replacing it with pseudo Starfleet nomenclature? It certainly would have been easier, less expensive, and required less valuable time. Instead, somebody went to the trouble of finding one of the names from that “list of starship names” memo, copyfit it, typeset it, and pasted it up. Somebody making the show apparently cared - alot - about something that wasn’t going to be visible onscreen.

Maybe they wanted it to be right just in case it was shown onscreen. In which case, it might be better to just assume it had been, because we know fully well what’s on it.

I apologize to Warped9 as I said I'd stop but I felt I should ask this in reply - why did they go to all that trouble and then in the camera shot obscure that very same text with the monitor? Perhaps it wasn't that expensive to do? Or it wasn't that difficult or important dollar-wise and someone on the production staff thought it would be fun to include and now it's taken a behind-the-scenes life on its own?
(Although you might've answered your own question on why they removed the USAF info. If you're already going to remove the USAF stuff so it wouldn't look dated then why not swap it with Starfleet text?)

 

[Warped9]

I don't want to derail your thread so I'll stop here as I understand now that your project includes also Unseen Props of TOS as well.

Such a tangental discussion to this project is not a derailment as I, too, enjoy such exchange of ideas. Besides I have already included an unseen prop of TOS by designing a TOS era phaser rifle.

 

[Warped9]

Some years ago aridas used a turn of phrase that stuck with me: “beyond the bulkhead.”

This project I call Unseen TOS could easily have been called Beyond The Bulkhead because it deals with the idea that TOS excelled, whether deliberate or not, at conveying a sense of a fleshed out universe beyond the confines of the Enterprise’s sets. Whatever TOS showed us left us wanting more—left us speculating what else was there we weren’t yet seeing. And we wanted to see it.

Many of us became fascinated and obsessed with studying and dissecting every smallest part of the show to wrest more meaning to the greater whole. It was our way of becoming part of Star Trek’s fictional universe and to make it feel even more convincing, even more real than it already seemed.

No doubt many could think we were crazy, including the show’s creators. But is it any crazier than those who dissect the smallest sports statistics to predict likely outcomes? Hell, analytics have become part of professional sports—it’s actually a job you get paid for.

For Star Trek, and for genre and mainstream entertainment as well, I think three distinct publications really got this interest going, besides the show itself: The Making of Star Trek and Franz Joseph’s Booklet of General Plans and Star Fleet Technical Manual. The show lit the fuse, TMoST breathed on it and FJ’s publications set it off.

The success of those publications, in tandem with the focused Star Trek conventions, changed the nature of fans’ relationship with their entertainment of choice. Entertainment for fans was no longer just passive where you simply read, listened or watched. Now you participated.

This interest means something to us. It’s also a helluva lotta fun.

 

[caveat_imperator]

I also like the idea of the E/R war being a significant impetus to form the UFP. That could mean the Federation would be only 50-70 years old by the time of TOS.

I feel like before whatever happened at Axanar the Federation was somewhat like a mix of NATO and the EEC, and afterwards it quickly evolved into something more like the EU or the US under the Articles of Confederation.