Having some architecture and engineering, I'll trust the guys that study such thing. The foundation under the Parthenon is every bit as amazing as the stuff you can see.
Unseen TOS....
- Thread starter Warped9
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Having some architecture and engineering, I'll trust the guys that study such thing. The foundation under the Parthenon is every bit as amazing as the stuff you can see.
Not a problem, as it is a matter of conjecture and artistic license. Do you want Rocket ships, or something totally different. If you keep continuity, then it is equally easy to "devolve" the TOS RBoP into something more primitive...That said, you could also be inspired by the unused line in BoT where the Romulan ship was presumed to be a design created by espionage... Just saying. Oh, and then there is the Vulcan influence...
The line about the Romulans stealing the design was when they were planning to use the smaller Enterprise filming model’s saucer as the Romulan ship. And the TOS Gold Key comics showed Romulan vessels as rocket-style ships (presumably because the artist didn’t see BoT.) The Romulan uniforms were completely different too.
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Warped9 even used “Entasis” on his primary hull.
Speaking of Romulans, I might go the other way. Have things straight, to where it seems to sag. Past glories fading.
For a horror film, say—have the inverse:
The base bows inward…but the tops of the columns bow outward a bit…as if something massive were inside trying to get out…
Pretty sure they planned to use the 11' model saucer. Roddenberry mentions it is "detachable" (in a memo about the script where he is the one who suggests this to the writer). I don't think that was the case with the small model.
I stand corrected.
Seen nearly head-on the BoP could create the impression of a saucer with nacelles, which could somewhat resemble a contemporary or relatively recent Starfleet design. Hence the idea there could be Romulan spies within in the Federation.
But that line of thought never actually made it into the finalized aired episode although it was in James Blish’s adaptation of the episode. Whether you accept this idea or not I don’t think it has any weight when considering designs set a century earlier.
Within the project of this thread we have established the parameters of what a mid to late 21st century Earth starship could look like with the Valiant design. The Enterprise, the Antares and the Astral Queen have shown us some diversity in ship design by the TOS era. For an Earth ship, particularly a combat vessel, it’s a matter of drawing a plausible evolutionary line from the Valiant to the TOS era designs we have already seen and coming up with something set about a century prior to TOS that looks “primitive” by comparison yet more advanced looking than the Valiant.
A century old Romulan ship is basically a blank slate. Besides being labeled as “primitive” and having a bird of prey painted on it we know next to nothing, except Stiles stating the old Romulan ships were painted like giant birds of prey. Note he says they were painted like rather than with giants birds of prey. That distinction, if taken at face value, suggests a possible general form of century old Romulan design that could still be different from the more advanced BoP we see later.
I think it also says something about Romulan culture that would feel it necessary to elaborately decorate a warship expected to be damaged if not outright destroyed at some point. That goes far beyond marking a ship with registry numbers and a name for purpose of identification.
But that line of thought never actually made it into the finalized aired episode although it was in James Blish’s adaptation of the episode. Whether you accept this idea or not I don’t think it has any weight when considering designs set a century earlier.
Within the project of this thread we have established the parameters of what a mid to late 21st century Earth starship could look like with the Valiant design. The Enterprise, the Antares and the Astral Queen have shown us some diversity in ship design by the TOS era. For an Earth ship, particularly a combat vessel, it’s a matter of drawing a plausible evolutionary line from the Valiant to the TOS era designs we have already seen and coming up with something set about a century prior to TOS that looks “primitive” by comparison yet more advanced looking than the Valiant.
A century old Romulan ship is basically a blank slate. Besides being labeled as “primitive” and having a bird of prey painted on it we know next to nothing, except Stiles stating the old Romulan ships were painted like giant birds of prey. Note he says they were painted like rather than with giants birds of prey. That distinction, if taken at face value, suggests a possible general form of century old Romulan design that could still be different from the more advanced BoP we see later.
I think it also says something about Romulan culture that would feel it necessary to elaborately decorate a warship expected to be damaged if not outright destroyed at some point. That goes far beyond marking a ship with registry numbers and a name for purpose of identification.
And the Blish adaptation refers to them as cylindrical.
Well, under all your thinking, the Romulan ships would have to show some aspect of the Vulcan ship-building ideology. They need not have a warp ring, but a lot of their general design knowledge would be Vulcan biased.
I did these models to show the Romulan-Vulcan war that Q mentioned that happened before the Earth-Romulan war rendered by my great friend Tus:
in this case the designs are virtually identical, but the Vulcan has it's ring, and the Rom has nacelles and the fin.
I did these models to show the Romulan-Vulcan war that Q mentioned that happened before the Earth-Romulan war rendered by my great friend Tus:
in this case the designs are virtually identical, but the Vulcan has it's ring, and the Rom has nacelles and the fin.
No, they don’t have to show any Vulcan influence as established in TNG and ENT as that concept didn’t yet exist when “Balance Of Terror” was produced. Yes, the ringship idea was something Matt Jefferies considered when working out a concept for the Enterprise, but there is zero indication that was something considered for Vulcan ships back then. The ringship was still an Earth centric idea when TMP was made, more than a decade after “Balance Of Terror.”
At this point in this thread it’s still 1966. Whatever came later isn’t known yet.
At this point in this thread it’s still 1966. Whatever came later isn’t known yet.
I agree 100%. All I am saying is that Romulans are Vulcans. That said, how much of their (Romulan) thinking would be influenced by their ancestor's. Romulans just didn't embrace suppressing their emotions... So would their thinking might be more daring, and less conservative? I do not know... As Vulcans seem to be slow to take chances, if they did/do at all.
To me, one would need to think of Vulcans first, or if you do a Romulan vessel first, you will have to use that as a landmark to devolve into aspects that would be Vulcan. The two are intrinsically linked.
Yes, there would be some commonality. And I agree later you would have to devolve into aspects recognized as Vulcan. During the first season, and particularly so early on, we see nothing of Vulcan other than Spock in Starfleet uniform and his logical mindset. If they had shown us an old Romulan vessel how deeply would the designer(s) have thought about the possible Vulcan-Romulan connection mentioned in the episode? It wasn’t until early second season we finally see a bit of Vulcan itself and it is through the lens of a formal ceremony. How they dress in this ceremony is quite different from what we see Sarek wearing a bit later in “Journey To Babel.” And both instances are different again from the military uniforms we see Romulans wearing in “Balance Of Terror” and later in “The Enterprise Incident.”
I always found it odd how they started dressing Sarek in robes in the movies and in TNG. It struck me as so counter to how he was dressed in TOS and TAS. Then again I find a lot if stuff in the movies don’t seem to gel with TOS.
Correct...Nevertheless the link was established, and that's where we are at. One can use many outsourced info of the time to insert as needed as justification, but the question now would be the obvious one of how to proceed? Will one use the Vulcan ancestry, or will it be totally different concept? Either way, if it were me, I'd work the easier way of doing a Vulcan ship first...then extrapolate from that. The Vulcan ship would have to be an Exodus ship concept, as that would be the tech that was available to the Romulans. Even if just a few sketches, and not a full fledged design...it would help to at least create the Vulcan aesthetic, and latter the Romulan one.
But that is just me.
I wonder if Jefferies had been tasked with designing a Vulcan ship would he have gone back to his early concept sketches for the Enterprise to look for a kernel of an idea to build on. Wah Chang designed the BoP so he strikes me as the most logical candidate for designing a century old Romulan warship. Would he have devolved his BoP design or would he have come up with something different? Was the BoP really based on the idea of Romulans maybe mimicking Starfleet design or was it mere coincidence?
I resist going to the ring concept for a Vulcan ship because for so long I accepted it as an Earth centric idea. Making it Vulcan says Earth adopted the concept, albeit briefly, rather than coming up with it on their own. This also ties into my issues with the TNG film First Contact and its take on 21st century Earth and how we got into the galaxy. Like a lot of post TOS stuff it just rubs me the wrong way.
I resist going to the ring concept for a Vulcan ship because for so long I accepted it as an Earth centric idea. Making it Vulcan says Earth adopted the concept, albeit briefly, rather than coming up with it on their own. This also ties into my issues with the TNG film First Contact and its take on 21st century Earth and how we got into the galaxy. Like a lot of post TOS stuff it just rubs me the wrong way.
Agreed, TNG First Contact is a slap in the face of TOS and ENT continued to do this; it gave the impression humans couldn't possibly be smart enough to come up with something which revolutionized interstellar travel.
As for the BoP, I think devolving the design would be an interesting choice but I can't see why the design couldn't be oval or something which was appropriate for it's time, whatever their society could've been. It was a hundred years ago so I don't believe the designs would appear sleek but rather big a less sophisticated; a platform to learn from to create the vessel seen in "Balance of Terror".
As for the BoP, I think devolving the design would be an interesting choice but I can't see why the design couldn't be oval or something which was appropriate for it's time, whatever their society could've been. It was a hundred years ago so I don't believe the designs would appear sleek but rather big a less sophisticated; a platform to learn from to create the vessel seen in "Balance of Terror".
If Vulcans and Romulans are separated by 2000 years, and have not had meaningful contact since their separation, and if Romulans left Vulcan in sublight, multi-generation arks, then there really shouldn’t be much connection between 22nd century FTL Vulcan ships and 22nd century FTL Romulan ships beyond that dictated by whatever physics you want to postulate.
Yeah, I agree with that
Well that is how Archer generally felt as well.
Were they in generational ships? I do not remember that (I could be mistaken as my memory is not as exacting in my current age as it once was...lol). Or is that conjecture? A similar thing happened with the Romulans using Klingon D7s were automatically assumed to have been in an alliance...but that has never been stated for TOS... Just having ships does not mean it is an alliance. just saying. If, as you pose that the Vulcans left in sub-light vessels that were generational then that would be totally correct, but it could be like the wheel...were it was invented many times in many ways, by cultures that were isolated from each other...so is Warp drive a similar thing? Great thinking there bro...I can get behind generational vessels...or ftl vessels....either way works for me.
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