Unpopular TUC View

[balls]

I've just finished my annual review of Trek movies and I seem to be having a hard time enjoying TUC. I think most of my problems stem from the writing. I acknowledge the idea of the cold war analogy as being a great idea. I think the scenes with the big 3 are strong. However, in addition to the obvious nits: "Right standard rudder"; phasers in the galley; "only Nixon can go to China", I have some issues with story points that seem to be there for no other reason than to further the story. For example: Kirk leaving his cabin door open while putting his stuff away and recording his (damning) personal log. I thought the doors on the Enterprise would have stayed closed after he entered the cabin. It seems like the only reason it stayed open was for Valeris to be able to hear and record the log. (Maybe later on in the movie it could have been determined that whoever modified the torpedo bank log could have also hacked into Kirk's personal log).
The scene with crewman Dax. Okay, nobody on board knows anything about this guy and his race? So, we find the gravity boots and we're all just going to wait for him in his cabin to interrogate him? Why not do a quick personnel check on the guy and send security to get him. The scene seems a bit forced and a little bit hokey.
The books. My God, the books. Isn't it a bit insulting to us and the characters that the wonderful crew of the Enterprise can't come up with a few lines of Klingon? Why do we have books? Don't we have computer files on Klingon? I'm not talking about the Universal Translator (which they do mention), but books? I've always assumed that Khan knew of "old Klingon proverbs" from his extensive review of memory tapes in "Space Seed." Heck, Marc Okrand's Klingon dictionary is a small paperback. Don't you think that Starfleet would spend some time at the academy training it's cadets on a few simple Klingon words. If Klingon's can memorize Shakespeare, why can our hero's know enough to get by? Again, a forced scene.

Finding the bodies of Samno and Burke right in the corridor in which the main characters are walking seems a bit too convenient. And, the follow up announcement on the loudspeaker for the court reporter (do starships have court reporters? I thought they just used the computer) to go to sickbay and take statements from Samno and Burke is such a blatant trap, I'm suprised that Valeris fell for it. I mean, this consipracy included one of the top guys at Starfleet, top guys of the Klingon Empire and the Romulans. If Valeris fell for that ruse, they chose the wrong person to deal with their dirty work.

In the Director's Version:
Operation retrieve. I have no problem with this other than why would we be sharing this plan with the Romulans?

Scotty, "I bet that Klingon bitch did it." It seems so out of character for Scotty or anyone in the Trek universe to use that line. I cringe everytime I hear it.

Spock's mind rape of Valeris. It's bad enough that he forces himself on her, but to do it on the bridge in front of everyone else seems wrong.

As much as I think that TFF was an abortion, I'm starting to like it a little bit more that TUC. I think I feel that way because I expected more from Meyer and Nimoy. Meyer saved the franchise with TWOK. His part in the screenplay for TVH was excellent. Nimoy did a great job with TSFS and TVH and the idea for this one was a good one. I don't know. Maybe after 17 years and repeated viewings it's easy to pick it apart. I guess I just can't buy into this being one of the great TOS movies.

 

[Unicron]

Personally I've always preferred the novel's interpretation of the book scene. They couldn't use the UT because the assassins disabled it, and had to dig out the books instead. It's still kind of weak humor, but it makes more sense than the bizarre reason that the UT would be "recognized."

 

[STIntergalactic]

Too bad Hoshi wasn't there. She don't need no fancy smancy UT.

You mention "Operation Retrieve" as part of the directors cut? I was not aware that it was not in the main cut of the movie.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Yeah, and as a result, there was no unmasking of the Klingon assassin at the end (because "It's Colonel West!" would have been a huge WTF)

 

[STIntergalactic]

Interesting, I thought I always remembered that being there.

 

[starburst]

Kirk leaving his cabin door open while putting his stuff away and recording his (damning) personal log. I thought the doors on the Enterprise would have stayed closed after he entered the cabin. It seems like the only reason it stayed open was for Valeris to be able to hear and record the log. (Maybe later on in the movie it could have been determined that whoever modified the torpedo bank log could have also hacked into Kirk's personal log).

I watched the movie recently, if I remember right Kirks bag is in the doorway keeping it open, Valeris walks in picks it up giving it to him and the door closes behind her

In the Director's Version:
Operation retrieve. I have no problem with this other than why would we be sharing this plan with the Romulans?

You mention "Operation Retrieve" as part of the directors cut? I was not aware that it was not in the main cut of the movie.

If it wasnt in the movie release it was in the original video I got back in the 90s...it never made sence to me that they discussed it with the Romulans, think it either shows a massive reduction in hostilities between the two since TOS or the script was just messed up when it came to this point (I was oddly thinking about this on a bus today)

 

[Maurice]

I feel like many of the problems with this movie are related to how quickly it was slapped together. The whole thing feels like a 2nd draft script with all the rough edges and contrivances that tend to get tweaked away in rewrites.

I never had a problem with the "only Nixon could go to China" line, because, if you're a student of history, it makes perfect sense as an analogy (only a strident anti-communist like Nixon could approach the Chinese without looking weak, and only someone with a record like Kirk's could be an escort without making Starfleet look weak); plus there's no denying it got a laugh in the theater.

 

[NiteTrek]

The scene with crewman Dax. Okay, nobody on board knows anything about this guy and his race? So, we find the gravity boots and we're all just going to wait for him in his cabin to interrogate him?

I never understood the whole search for the gravity boots thing. Wouldn't gravity boots be standard equipment on a Starship? Surely they would have these things stocked somewhere in an equipment locker. It would have made more sense if they were looking for gravity boots that had traces of Klingon blood on them. But when Valeris said they were looking "for 2 pairs of gravity boots" it made it sound as if they were normally non-existent on a starship.

There were just so many things wrong with that movie but I didn't complain too much at the time, thinking it was the last movie with the TOS characters.

 

[balls]

I feel like many of the problems with this movie are related to how quickly it was slapped together. The whole thing feels like a 2nd draft script with all the rough edges and contrivances that tend to get tweaked away in rewrites.

I never had a problem with the "only Nixon could go to China" line, because, if you're a student of history, it makes perfect sense as an analogy (only a strident anti-communist like Nixon could approach the Chinese without looking weak, and only someone with a record like Kirk's could be an escort without making Starfleet look weak); plus there's no denying it got a laugh in the theater.

I get the historical context. I laughed when I heard it in '91. I thought it was a silly comment that it was a Vulcan saying. However, I softened my stance on it after watching the Enterprise ep "Carbon Creek" that established Vulcans were on earth in the 50's. So, I guess they would have had some knowledge of our history.

 

[Timo]

Finding the bodies of Samno and Burke right in the corridor in which the main characters are walking seems a bit too convenient.

That could simply be the result of another attempt to frame the top officers. Two people murdered, apparently very hastily and in a moment of panic - at the very doorstep of Captain Kirk's cabin!

Now that would be a fairly logical thing for the conspirators to do. Hide the telltale uniforms in the Officers' Mess, and you are impyling that the person doing the hiding was one of the officers (or else one of the waiters, but apparently neither of them was actually involved). Put corpses on Kirk's doorstep and you are further helping establish Kirk's direct guilt - after the Klingon court only managed to nail indirect guilt on him, by asserting that a captain is responsible for the actions of his crew.

Valeris certainly needed the diversions at those points, as she herself would soon have come under suspicion. No doubt she was willing to take one for the team and admit guilt with Vulcan stoicism, but she would have wanted to take at least Kirk and preferably several of his merry men down with her.

Operation retrieve. I have no problem with this other than why would we be sharing this plan with the Romulans?

Because they needed the allies?

Until that point, the Fed/Klingon war had apparently been a cold one, neither side willing to commit forces to actual fighting. Something must have changed to make the plans of the conspirators viable. And having the Romulans join the Federation side and promise direct assistance (such as cloaks for Colonel West's ships) or at least neutrality when the fighting began would be just the thing...

Scotty, "I bet that Klingon bitch did it." It seems so out of character for Scotty or anyone in the Trek universe to use that line. I cringe everytime I hear it.

Depends. Scotty was always cursing at things and people, although usually he used relatively polite cusswords.

Spock's mind rape of Valeris. It's bad enough that he forces himself on her, but to do it on the bridge in front of everyone else seems wrong.

I don't see why people should get a hard-on about this. The so-called "mind rape" is an interrogation procedure, not a form of perverse sex. Is Archer playing breath control sex games with that Osaarian when he threatens to throw him out of the airlock?

It would IMHO be far worse if Spock tried to be secretive about what he is doing.

I never understood the whole search for the gravity boots thing. Wouldn't gravity boots be standard equipment on a Starship? Surely they would have these things stocked somewhere in an equipment locker. It would have made more sense if they were looking for gravity boots that had traces of Klingon blood on them.

Well, however Valeris puts it, it does seem they are really looking for a very specific pair of boots.

And those need not be standard gear in crew cabins, even if they are standard gear aboard a starship. Surely a naval vessel might be expected to have scuba gear aboard, but to find scuba gear in a crewman's quarters where it is being hidden because it has blood on it and the crewman has watched his CSI:Norfolk...

The search for the boots made at least some sense. The explanation for why it made sense didn't make much sense, though. Neither Spock nor Valeris could come up with a good argument for why the assassins would choose to beam aboard the Enterprise rather than the invisible Bird of Prey. But to the audience, in retrospect, the reason should be obvious. The intent of the attack was not as much to kill Gorkon as it was to make it look as if Kirk had killed Gorkon. So of course the assassins would be instructed to bring the maximum amount of incriminating evidence aboard Kirk's ship...

Of course Valeris would know this, and would avoid saying it out loud. And Spock should realize it, too, but perhaps he is minding his words in hopes of entrapping the conspirator he knows must be among the officers.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[balls]

I don't see why people should get a hard-on about this. The so-called "mind rape" is an interrogation procedure, not a form of perverse sex. Is Archer playing breath control sex games with that Osaarian when he threatens to throw him out of the airlock?

It would IMHO be far worse if Spock tried to be secretive about what he is doing.



In retrospect, "mind rape" may have been too harsh a term to use. I have never looked upon it as perverse sex. I question the Federation, Starfleet and Mr. Spock, allowing the forced interrogation of a prisoner. When Valeris chooses not to answer, that should be the end of it (again, I know it's a movie). It seems like an action that Section 31 might use to get information. I don't know what the law will be like in the 23rd century, but I would think that if someone doesn't want to answer the question they get thrown into the brig and an investigation begins. I understand that time was a factor, but I don't think it was appropriate (again, I know it's a movie and it was a dramatic scene).

I'm trying to think back to all the mind melds in the various incarnations of Trek. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that everyone of them started with the question, "May I join with you?" or something like that. Maybe that wasn't the case with Gracie in TVH but every other one was. I can't remember how Spock's meld with Van Gelder in "Dagger of the Mind" started to know if he asked him or not. In any event, I don't think that Spock was welcomed in Valeris' mind.

 

[maryh]

In retrospect, "mind rape" may have been too harsh a term to use. I have never looked upon it as perverse sex. I question the Federation, Starfleet and Mr. Spock, allowing the forced interrogation of a prisoner.

I don't think Star Fleet was opposed to some interrogation methods. I quote "Journey to Babel"

Spock: "He has been subject to verifier scan and truth drug yet reveals nothing. I suggest that his mind has been so altered as part of a preconceived plan...."

I doubt Star Fleet would oppose mind melding as a form of interrogation. At this period of Trek though we know that Vulcans are rare in Star Fleet, they are secretive about these kind of things, and they don't like to do melds.

When Valeris chooses not to answer, that should be the end of it (again, I know it's a movie). It seems like an action that Section 31 might use to get information. I don't know what the law will be like in the 23rd century, but I would think that if someone doesn't want to answer the question they get thrown into the brig and an investigation begins. I understand that time was a factor, but I don't think it was appropriate (again, I know it's a movie and it was a dramatic scene).

I'm trying to think back to all the mind melds in the various incarnations of Trek. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that everyone of them started with the question, "May I join with you?" or something like that. Maybe that wasn't the case with Gracie in TVH but every other one was. I can't remember how Spock's meld with Van Gelder in "Dagger of the Mind" started to know if he asked him or not. In any event, I don't think that Spock was welcomed in Valeris' mind.

Spock did not ask the Horta, he kind of invaded Kelinda's mind in "By Any Other Name" and perhaps in "The Omega Glory". If the situation was desperate enough, it would be the "logical thing to do". The idea of it being considered bad to force a meld only appears in some of the novels and only is considered bad by Vulcans. I find this idea to be somewhat irregular too.

To keep the audience interested there will always be things done in a dramatic fashion. You just have to give them a little license to do so. If they were too close to sensible it might get boring to watch. My favorite inconsistent overdramatization was in Amok Time - when they put T'Pring on the main view screen to exchange ritual mating call words with Spock. Now that really should have been done privately - especially in a culture so secretive about this issue. But it made a great dramatic shocking scene. All Star Trek has you saying "Why didn't they just....", or "That was just too coincidental, what if......"

If you get too wrapped up in this it takes all the fun out of it.

 

[Christopher]

Spock's mind rape of Valeris. It's bad enough that he forces himself on her, but to do it on the bridge in front of everyone else seems wrong.

I don't see why people should get a hard-on about this. The so-called "mind rape" is an interrogation procedure, not a form of perverse sex. Is Archer playing breath control sex games with that Osaarian when he threatens to throw him out of the airlock?

You're profoundly misinterpreting the meaning of the word "rape." Rape is not a sex act. It is an act of violence which corrupts sex into a means of victimization and subjugation. No one who's ever been raped would define it as something erotic or dismiss it as a game, and it's hideously insensitive to equate it with such a thing.

When people say "mind rape," they DO NOT mean "a mind meld as a sexual act." They mean "an intimate, properly consensual act corrupted into a coercive assault."

In most works of science fiction involving telepaths, including much prose Trek fiction about Vulcans predating TUC and various post-TUC Trek episodes (such as TNG's "Violations"), it is established that a fundamental rule of ethics in any telepathic culture is that a telepath must never enter another person's mind without their consent, just as our culture considers it a fundamental ethical principle that you never impose sexual contact on a person without their consent. Both acts are profoundly intimate, and thus profoundly traumatic and degrading when performed without consent. What Spock did to Valeris, forcing himself into her mind without her consent, is just as much a brutal act of violation as if he'd raped her physically. That is what people object to about the scene. Especially since, in many people's view, the scene was consciously directed to suggest an act of seduction, making it even more overtly a rape scene.

 

[maryh]

Spock's mind rape of Valeris. It's bad enough that he forces himself on her, but to do it on the bridge in front of everyone else seems wrong.

I don't see why people should get a hard-on about this. The so-called "mind rape" is an interrogation procedure, not a form of perverse sex. Is Archer playing breath control sex games with that Osaarian when he threatens to throw him out of the airlock?

You're profoundly misinterpreting the meaning of the word "rape." Rape is not a sex act. It is an act of violence which corrupts sex into a means of victimization and subjugation. No one who's ever been raped would define it as something erotic or dismiss it as a game, and it's hideously insensitive to equate it with such a thing.

When people say "mind rape," they DO NOT mean "a mind meld as a sexual act." They mean "an intimate, properly consensual act corrupted into a coercive assault."

In most works of science fiction involving telepaths, including much prose Trek fiction about Vulcans predating TUC and various post-TUC Trek episodes (such as TNG's "Violations"), it is established that a fundamental rule of ethics in any telepathic culture is that a telepath must never enter another person's mind without their consent, just as our culture considers it a fundamental ethical principle that you never impose sexual contact on a person without their consent. Both acts are profoundly intimate, and thus profoundly traumatic and degrading when performed without consent. What Spock did to Valeris, forcing himself into her mind without her consent, is just as much a brutal act of violation as if he'd raped her physically. That is what people object to about the scene. Especially since, in many people's view, the scene was consciously directed to suggest an act of seduction, making it even more overtly a rape scene.

The needs of the many outweigh them needs of the few.

 

[A beaker full of death]

"Right standard rudder"

I rather liked that one

phasers in the galley

For making coffee when the power's out. There is precedent.

"only Nixon can go to China"

I had no problem with that one

I thought the doors on the Enterprise would have stayed closed after he entered the cabin.

I think the bag was blocking the door.

do starships have court reporters?

Yeah, that was silly.

Scotty, "I bet that Klingon bitch did it." It seems so out of character for Scotty or anyone in the Trek universe to use that line. I cringe everytime I hear it.

Spock's mind rape of Valeris. It's bad enough that he forces himself on her, but to do it on the bridge in front of everyone else seems wrong.

These are my biggest issues. Absolute character assassination. Kirk wouldn't have asked, and Spock wouldn't have done it.

 

[guardian]

A couple of points..........

Someone correctly noted that Kirk's bag was holding the door open when he was settling into his cabin and Valeris overheard.

People conviently forget that in Elaan of Troyus Kirk indicates that he wants Spock to use the meld on Kryton against his will. So 'mind rape' (nonsense) goes back to 1968. Kirk is very nonchalant in the way he says it too. I guess when war is on the line a little mind-reading seems worth the price. Kryron brags he's ready to resit any torture they can throw at him.

The books scene was forced upon Meyer (and Nichols) by the studio (to make the movie 'Funny') I do wish they had thought to throw in the "conspirators disabled the UT" line in postproduction voice-over though.

 

[balls]

A couple of points..........

Someone correctly noted that Kirk's bag was holding the door open when he was settling into his cabin and Valeris overheard.

People conviently forget that in Elaan of Troyus Kirk indicates that he wants Spock to use the meld on Kryton against his will. So 'mind rape' (nonsense) goes back to 1968. Kirk is very nonchalant in the way he says it too. I guess when war is on the line a little mind-reading seems worth the price. Kryron brags he's ready to resit any torture they can throw at him.

The books scene was forced upon Meyer (and Nichols) by the studio (to make the movie 'Funny') I do wish they had thought to throw in the "conspirators disabled the UT" line in postproduction voice-over though.

I guess I figure the only guy that ever beat the Kobyashi Maru scenario and cheated death a bunch of times would know enough not to leave his duffle bag in the doorway of his cabin while giving his personal log. It just seems like lazy storytelling.

 

[guardian]

No it's not lazy storytelling....

Even a really smart guy who reprogramed the Kobayashi simulation might prop open a door while carrying in his luggage. I've propped open door that shut themselves by droping one bag there while carrying in others.

He would never have expected a member his crew to to eavesdrop as Valeris did, because Starfleet folks in the 23rd century were generally more decent than that.
The whole point of the movie is that when it came to peace with the klingons, the crew wasn't as 'evolved' as we (and they) would have thought.

First someone complains, "why would the door be open" not noticing that it was propped and then when someone tells them it WAS propped they find another excuse why the scene stinks.
Fine, it stinks if you want to say so.
Hopefully, your screenplays won't be filled with 'lazy storytelling' and if they aren't, hopefully time/schedule or other considerations won't occur that make it neccessary to use an expediency like a propped door and a eavesdropper because that could never happen in real life.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I agree that this movie has a good story and that it was the small details that severly hindered it. Individually, the details wouldn't normally matter, but the sheer amount of off-moments, the sheer number of awkward details and small flubs is this film's severe weakness.

I mean didn't they watch the dailies and realize that it's so utterly dumb to have Valeris slide down a pole... and dumber still to see that she shook the cheapo vinyl set they were on? I mean I know the film had a tight budget, but even those type of budgets are enough to ensure a decently made film is produced.

 

[guardian]

Sliding down the pole was simply a way to interject a little movement into the scene-no big deal IMO

I believe, correct me if I'm wrong (if you know for sure), Valeris doesn't hit a bulkhead, but a sliding panel of what looks like a storage area. To my memory it looks like it's inset a couple of inches from the main bulkhead. I don't think it would be so bad if it was simply a doorway to a storage area as oppsed to a actual bulkhead.

if it is a bulkhead then I agree with the complaint in question.

I do know they severly cut the budget just before filming started and they were under a fairly tight schedule. Maybe some retakes were lost in the rush to get the film in the can by Dec. 1991. You can't have a 25th aniverasry movie in the 26th year !! Unless it 'The Jerk' 26th aviversary edition.