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Twilight...wow!

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Odon said:
Yes, people are forgetting that when Chekov et al landed on Ceti Alpha V it was a wind-swept wasteland.

yeah the planet described in tos is very different from what we see in the movie after the disaster happened.

Nebusj said:
MeanJoePhaser said:
basically, Daniels could intervene during Storm Front...so why not Twilight?

It doesn't add up. I hate temporal mechanics. ;)
Daniels got what he was after in ``Twilight'', a destroyed Earth. When that didn't stick, he was at least able in ``Storm Front'' to kill off (it seems) Archer's Suliban guardian angel of Silik. Daniels will take what consolation prizes he can get.

uh..
we learn in cold front daniels is part human and very possibly from earth.

but yeah there are issues about how this time effect stuff happens in say carpenter street and shockwave.
 
6th day of XMe$$ said:
Meh.. This whole forum is about what people hate more than what people like!!
Seems that way for some at least.

Mott, "Proving Ground" is another excellent season 3 episode.
 
pookha said:
Nebusj said:
Daniels got what he was after in ``Twilight'', a destroyed Earth. When that didn't stick, he was at least able in ``Storm Front'' to kill off (it seems) Archer's Suliban guardian angel of Silik. Daniels will take what consolation prizes he can get.
uh..
we learn in cold front daniels is part human and very possibly from earth.
More specifically, we learn that Daniels wants his patsies to believe he's from Earth. (I have to have bored everyone with my revisionist take on the Temporal Cold War too recently to go through it again.)

but yeah there are issues about how this time effect stuff happens in say carpenter street and shockwave.
Hoo yeah. I think the logic of it works out better if we just start making up stuff that should've been on-screen instead.
 
MeanJoePhaser said:
Khan didn't have any starships to evacuate in, though. So the potential tragedy of the planet becoming a wasteland if humanity had remained there undetected...isn't.

The point is that what humanity thought was a sanctuary...wasn't. It was just meant as an ironic note the fans would pick up on.
 
Nebusj said:
pookha said:
Nebusj said:
Daniels got what he was after in ``Twilight'', a destroyed Earth. When that didn't stick, he was at least able in ``Storm Front'' to kill off (it seems) Archer's Suliban guardian angel of Silik. Daniels will take what consolation prizes he can get.
uh..
we learn in cold front daniels is part human and very possibly from earth.
More specifically, we learn that Daniels wants his patsies to believe he's from Earth. (I have to have bored everyone with my revisionist take on the Temporal Cold War too recently to go through it again.)

but yeah there are issues about how this time effect stuff happens in say carpenter street and shockwave.
Hoo yeah. I think the logic of it works out better if we just start making up stuff that should've been on-screen instead.

actually i think daniels wanted archer to save earth but also knew how stubborn he was from things like the historical records of stealing the ship in first flight.
so he told him not to do certain things knowing for sure he would do them then.

;) :lol:
 
One thing they should have had was T'Pol dressed in a naughty nurse outfit for Archer's "Very Special Day." ;)
 
I enjoyed it too. I thought it was one of the best episodes of Enterprise. From T'Pol and Archer to Captain Tucker, it was some intense drama!
 
Odon said:
One thing they should have had was T'Pol dressed in a naughty nurse outfit for Archer's "Very Special Day." ;)

If I was a Vulcan then a Trill I would be doing something with my eye :eek:
 
Mott the barber said:
I've been catching reruns of ENT on HDNet and never saw this ep. until tonight. It's definitely one of the best I've seen in the series. Lots of great dramatic moments. I wanted to know what Archer was about to say to T'Pol before he's interrupted "If this works...". I always thought Archer and T'Pol should've ended up together.

What do you guys think of the episode?

3x08 – “Twilight”
ENT’s “Year of Hell”

I really can’t figure out why this episode was so critically acclaimed, or so I’d heard it was at the time it originally aired. Is it because it showed a grim future for humanity and actually shoed Earth being destroyed? Why? Right off the bat we knew that it’d have to be one of the biggest reset episodes ever seen in Star Trek, being matched only by the VOY episode it rehashes – Year of Hell. So what’s so great about reset button episodes? Is it that we get to see everyone die and the main ship destroyed just so we can reset and see everyone and everything all safe and sound again at the end of the episode? It works sometimes, true enough, as with the case of TNG’s Yesterday’s Enterprise; for that matter even VOY’s Year of Hell was actually better in my opinion than what I saw here.

Of course Twilight got off on the wrong foot with me anyway, by starting in the middle of the episode yet again in the manner that really annoys me. Ooh, ah, Earth done got blowed up. :rolleyes: It was a pretty good visual effect, but it also portends to the Super!Archer! theory in that only he can possibly save the universe, and if you’ve been reading all my reviews, by this point you know I’m not fan of that simply because it belittles the rest of the crew, and frankly, nothing I’ve seen about the man makes him all that great in my eyes, if anything the opposite.

This episode also didn’t bode well for me in that it once again made T’Pol weak and pretty emotional for that matter. Like when that support beam fell on T’Pol she screamed and writhed about uselessly, and yet somehow where her Vulcan discipline and superior strength failed, Archer was able to lift it off of her and get her to safety. This makes T’Pol feel indebted to Archer, who is now nothing more than a invalid thanks to some strange parasites that were conveniently cared on this anomaly and none of the others before or since, and she becomes the nursemaid to him. I guess it would take the patience of a Vulcan to put up with him since he's stuck in Ahab! mode and to have to explain everything that's happened over and over again. But of course this doesn’t even happen until after T’Pol has been given a field commission to Captain, though for whatever reason Starfleet never deemed it necessary to give her a field commission to Commander before this (or after it), and after she utterly fails at that post, because only Super!Archer! can competently command the ship, getting Earth destroyed in the process. Only after T’Pol has been made to fail so utterly does she feel this need to resign and become nursemaid to Captain Alzheimer and become “intimate” with him somehow despite him forgetting everything everyday. But I really don't even buy that. Even if I didn't know that the script originally had T'Pol basically telling him off after he asks the non sequitur question about how far their relationship has "evolved" - I have eyes after all. You can clearly see another bed in the house.

Archer's quarters - note that only his nick-nacks are present.
twilight_048.jpg


Out in the hallway - we finally see some of her things on top of that cabinet, which is directly across from...
twilight_061.jpg

...her bed.
twilight_399.jpg


I'm digusted as it is that a strong female character is made to be weak and inept just to glorify Archer, but the idea that she literally ends up serving as his nursemaid just disturbs me. The joke at the end about it made it that much more lame. I'd say that it's fortunate that this is a reset button, but TPTB had a habit of doing this kind of thing. Just watch The Seventh for another great example of this - they literally make T'Pol so pathetic that she can't shoot a fleeing criminal that's tried to kill her with a phaser set on stun. No, they literally had to have Archer hold her hand so she could do it. :rolleyes:

At least Trip is made to be a somewhat competent commander, and to his credit Reed makes a decent first officer too (and I must say looks rather striking in a goatee ;) ). We also finally get some more …realistic casualties, but we all know it’s a reset anyway so that effect is lost.

As an aside, I must say that I laugh at Braga’s idea of “continuity porn” again, this time by the throwaway mention of the only surviving Earth convoy settling on Ceti Alpha V.

Anyway, fortunately Phlox has somehow gotten back to his homeworld and has come back, bearing the reset button…I mean cure for Archer’s parasites. Also fortunately, Trip still feels sorry enough for Captain Alzheimer to let Phlox turn engineering into an experiment laboratory. Also fortunately, T’Pol notices the magic discrepancy with the old scans of Archer’s brain that they somehow conclude means destroying all of them by any means will destroy them all the way back to Archer first getting them, changing time because it means Super!Archer! would be able to save the day. Even T’Pol, who has always been presented as being skeptical about time travel despite all the evidence she’s ever seen to the contrary, is in on this magic reset button cure. Of course it’s at this point that we find out that the Xindi are on their way and everyone is screwed, because naturally as this is a reset button, we have to see all the main characters die before it’s complete. Even T’Pol and Phlox aren’t spared, though they aren’t human; I’m halfway surprised Porthos didn’t live to be an old dog just so we could see him killed too. :rolleyes: Actually, for that matter, why did the Xindi even bother to board the ship when they already had it more or less destroyed? All they’d had to do is give it one more good shot and they’ve have killed every single human on board, which seemed to be their goal. :wtf: Anyway, so it comes to pass that a throwaway line from Phlox actually turns out to be the magic reset button cure, and Archer is able to take multiple hits and set Enterprise’s warp core to self destruct just before he dies. So, basically Archer wakes up in sickbay again, none the worse for wear, and we’re right back to where the story “started”, or at least to where T’Pol started from when she brought Archer (and us) up to speed through all those flashbacks.

Anyway, I’m sure you can tell I’m not impressed with this episode; in fact, I think it’s horribly over-rated. I feel it is befitting no more than the goose egg I’m giving it; hey, maybe that will help lower the overall average out of all the reviews out there. :D
 
Don't worry Captain X, I'm with you on the annoying Super!Archer! stuff that really brought the show down.
 
Captain X said:I really can’t figure out why this episode was so critically acclaimed, or so I’d heard it was at the time it originally aired. Is it because it showed a grim future for humanity and actually shoed Earth being destroyed?
That was certainly part of it for me. The race to fight off the weapon only to have Earth destroyed in such a grand visual fashion was stunning and chilling.
Right off the bat we knew that it’d have to be one of the biggest reset episodes ever seen in Star Trek
Speaking myself I don't mind reset button episodes just as long the hour preceding the reset is entertaining. I'm also pretty lenient when it comes to entertainment. If the episode meets my entertainment threshold then I'm satisfied.

If the episode goes that extra mile then it's appreciated.
So what’s so great about reset button episodes?
Twilight worked so well for me because it showed us what really was at stake. By seeing the fate that awaited humanity in such vividly grim and chilling detail, it really brought it home in a way that FG's ominous warning hadn't of the burden on Archer.

Besides the aforementioned stunning visuals, the episode also had several strong individual scenes from the Archer/T'Pol scenes to the T'Pol/Soval scene to the Phlox/T'Pol scene. While it was epic it also remembered the characters and the little details.

It really is a noble gesture by T'Pol to give up everything for one man. This isn't a weak woman. I'd argue the opposite. She could be back on Vulcan safe and sound from Xindi attacks yet she has chosen to be nurse to him. She has made the arc complete in her journey. She stood by Archer and her human crew all the way back in season one on numerous occasions. In season three, she resigned from the HC and went on a possible one-way mission to save Earth. Now she is fully committed to a part of their new community.

I also loved the shot of Archer racing out to the settlement with that look on his face as the camera panned outward showing the pathetic sight of the remnants of humanity.

That gave an extra layer for longtime fans who can not only appreciate the loss humanity as a civilization has suffered but the Alpha Quadrant has lost. Soval and the Vulcans are oblivious to the fact that at this moment in history that the Federation should be being paved and a new prosperous era should be being ushered in. Instead Vulcan is on a dangerous path, the region is still unstable and humanity is essentially annihilated huddled on a desolate world. It is poignant. Made moreso by the Archer/T'pol friendship ironically enough because the closest humanity and Vulcans will now get is captured in the microcosmic relationship between those two.

The episode also gave the Xindi a far more chilling presence that was lacking when we see how they aren't content to just destroying Earth but intend on eradicating every last human being and continuing this slaughter patiently for 12 years by the time of this episode.

And in a season that had several exciting battles, the one between the last ships and the Xindi squadron was thrilling.
it also portends to the Super!Archer! theory in that only he can possibly save the universe, and if you’ve been reading all my reviews, by this point you know I’m not fan of that simply because it belittles the rest of the crew, and frankly, nothing I’ve seen about the man makes him all that great in my eyes, if anything the opposite.
Well ST captains saving the day is nothing new.
As an aside, I must say that I laugh at Braga’s idea of “continuity porn” again, this time by the throwaway mention of the only surviving Earth convoy settling on Ceti Alpha V.
Once again another criticism directed towards Brannon when it should be directed at Mike Sussman who wrote the episode and is a big fan of including TOS references. And by the way it isn't a throwaway example of namedropping.
Even T’Pol, who has always been presented as being skeptical about time travel despite all the evidence she’s ever seen to the contrary, is in on this magic reset button cure.
Actually T'Pol seemed open to the idea in Azati Prime.

The episode also worked because of its epic nature.
 
startrekwatcher said:
Twilight worked so well for me because it showed us what really was at stake. By seeing the fate that awaited humanity in such vividly grim and chilling detail, it really brought it home in a way that FG's ominous warning hadn't of the burden on Archer.
We already knew what was at stake though. We didn't actually have to see Earth get destroyed to know that would happen if ENT's mission failed. We also already knew that ENT's mission wouldn't fail, so as I pointed out before, we already knew that this was going to be a reset button. What makes it worse here, is that it became completely about Archer. It wasn't aboat Earth, it wasn't about the crew, it was all about Archer and how he was the only person who could possibly complete the mission successfully. That bothered me. I also hate reset buttons as a rule. They are a crutch used to do something major that would really change things, but only because everything will go back to the way it was by the end of the episode or story arc. They also cheat the show because by definition nothing moves forward and none of the characters or anything else is affected by what happened. That's pointless. If you;re going to do something, do something, don't puss out and hit the reset button.

It really is a noble gesture by T'Pol to give up everything for one man.
There was nothing noble about it. She was guilty and felt sorry for him because he was injured while preventing her from becoming injured herself.

This isn't a weak woman.
Sure she was, everything from being unable to lift a beam off of her own foot that a weaker human was able to, to being shown to be inept at commanding the ship, to giving up that position of command to serve as the live-in help for an Alzheimer patient. No, she didn't run home like a scared little girl, but being a nursemaid when she was an experianced officer was, as was her command ability being shown to be so poor. She performed much better in command in the first season. All of this was done to make Archer better by default, thus underlining my previous point about this being made completely about Archer.

The episode also gave the Xindi a far more chilling presence that was lacking when we see how they aren't content to just destroying Earth but intend on eradicating every last human being and continuing this slaughter patiently for 12 years by the time of this episode.
But we already knew that. Or more importantly, we already knew that this wouldn't happen.

Well ST captains saving the day is nothing new.
No, but it's never been as exclusive as in ENT with Archer. Even in TOS, which was made when the whole Hero/Sidekick formula was popular, Spock and other memebrs of the crew saved the day mroe than once. Hell, I can think of at least one instance where Scotty saved Kirk's ass.

Once again another criticism directed towards Brannon when it should be directed at Mike Sussman who wrote the episode and is a big fan of including TOS references.
My aside comes directly from an interview by Brannon Braga, who coined the term "continuity porn" himself in reference to name-dropping rather than a more substantial tie-in to one of the previous series. It was very much a name-drop, made only for the recognition of the name from TOS and ST2. It isn't a major criticism against them for doing it, but I'll still point it out like anything else that catches my attention.

Actually T'Pol seemed open to the idea in Azati Prime.
She was also open to emotional outbursts cuased by the dangerous substance she was open to exposing herself to like a drug.

The episode also worked because of its epic nature.
It would fit under the definition in the dictionary as "epic", but it still sucked and only gets a goose egg from me. ;)
 
indranee said:
CX, that's not her bed. that's a couch.
She's sitting on the couch. Look on the left edge of the screen, you'll see a twin-sized collapsable bed with a white comforter on it. This is directly across from the cabinet Archer is standing next to in the previous screencap that has Vulcan items on it. You can also see a few other affects blurred in the background behind the bed.
 
Now we are way past the need to use a reset button ... get the nukes out. Gee ... you guys are going to make me start drinking
 
Captain X said:
indranee said:
CX, that's not her bed. that's a couch.
She's sitting on the couch. Look on the left edge of the screen, you'll see a twin-sized collapsable bed with a white comforter on it. This is directly across from the cabinet Archer is standing next to in the previous screencap that has Vulcan items on it. You can also see a few other affects blurred in the background behind the bed.

so what's your point? that they weren't "shacked up"?

so what? even if it happened a couple of times, in no way would T'Pol want to lie in the same bed with a Human male in perpetuity. y'all smell, remember? ;)

EDIT: Ezri, no worries. be VERY glad you weren't here when the show was on. you'd think CX and I were mortal enemies if you were around at the time.

(I actually like him a lot. he's a pretty cool writer!) :thumbsup:
 
indranee said:

so what's your point? that they weren't "shacked up"?
I'm refuting the modification that Bakula managed to talk the director into. I'd think that Archer being stuck in Ahab! mode and forgetting everything every few hours would preclude anything from "evolving", but visual aids always help too. ;)

so what? even if it happened a couple of times, in no way would T'Pol want to lie in the same bed with a Human male in perpetuity. y'all smell, remember? ;)
I'm not going to go there, we're treading on dangerous enough ground as it is.

Ezri, no worries. be VERY glad you weren't here when the show was on. you'd think CX and I were mortal enemies if you were around at the time.
Wait, we aren't? :p

(I actually like him a lot. he's a pretty cool writer!) :thumbsup:
Thanks. :)
 
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