Twilight...wow!

[galleywest]

182 said:
This was one I never really cared for.. I think what it was, was I was a newcomer to Enterprise, and I had been reading the boards and reading all the threads and praise for it before I had actually seen it. So when I finally saw it, I think it was too hyped in my mind, and I didn't enjoy as much.

You know what? This is exactly what happened with this episode for me. I missed it the first go-round and caught it later on, after I'd read all kinds of reviews and discussion about it. I wish I'd seen it without the spoilers, I think I would have enjoyed it more. As it is, it'll always be a strong episode, but not an "I'd watch it over and over" episode.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Any others from ENT. on par with this?

Actually a few. I've always felt that this and the fourth season episode "The Forge" were two of ENT's best.

"The Forge" really did so many things right. It was a nicely relevant prequel storyline, it was a very nice introspective piece on the Vulcans, it had scope and a lot of nice character work.

Then there is the ending episodes of the Xindi arc("Azati Prime", "Damage", "The Forgotten", "The Council" "Countdown" and "Zero Hour") that really replicated a lot of what made DS9's Final Chapter so riveting--suspense, lots of different characters off on different missions, beautiful battle sequences, lots of tension and nice character moments interspersed.

 

[mattwitz]

one of my favorites...seeing the enterprise blow up and that final space fight...wow. Second only to "Dear Doctor" for me as an all time great episode.

 

[commodore64]

The Forge, Damage, Azati Prime, The Council are all goodies ... right up there with Twilight to me. I like great characters (who are all noble in every action they take), good plots that are desperate and compelling -- tugging at your heart.

Some people don't like the Inner Light, City on the Edge of Forever, etc. I think these shows also do the same. That's okay, too.

 

[pookha]

Noel Given said:

Indysolo said:
It's never established that any of Khan's people died as a result of Ceti Alpha VI's destruction. It is established however that many of his followers (including his wife) were killed by the Ceti eel, the brain parasite ignored in "Twilight".

And remember, Khan being on Ceti Alpha V was a prison sentence. He didn't have access to any of the technology that the survivors in "Twilight" did and yet he managed to survive.

This is why "Twilight" doesn't work for me. This detail was an ill conceived bone thrown to fans without any logical thought behind it, especially when there is an obvious connection that is ignored. None of it holds up to any sort of scrutiny. And because of that, it's a failure.

Neil

Well, to be fair - We saw the colony 12 years after its founding in Twilight. It's possible that in that time, humans DID have casualties from the parasite; but learned how to prevent people from getting attacked/injured by said parasite. Also, I have a feeling some people would scream 'fanwank' if a large portion of the episode was devoted to explaining what the colony had done (if anything) regarding these creaatures.

IMO - it's a big non-issue.

or the emergence of the eel thing was caused by the biological disaster after the other planet was destroyed.

as for twilight i think it is great until the stupid super archer silliness at the end when it has been established just getting struck by bolt from the xindi gun kills we see archer still firing a weapon while grasping the weapon in the hand of the shoulder that was struck.
and of course both phlox and tpol went down with one shot.



i could have bought his getting shot and then setting off the explosion as he is dying but not being able to fight back.

Mott the barber said:

indranee said:
to the OP: you have good taste. Twilight is one of Trek's best eps

Thanks!

Any others from ENT. on par with this?

If you need any TNG/DS9 recommendations, I can return the favor.

shuttle pod one, observer effect,silent enemy
the first two parts of the romulan/andorian trilogy
the end part of season three

 

[Kenobi]

Indeed a great episode.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

They should've used the ceti eel on the Yridian to make him talk...add an element of torture to the episode to remind us how deseperate the humans are.

TWILIGHT sucked, actually. Not in execution (except Archer surviving so many shots from Xindi weapons where others just fell after one), but in the Trek tradition of "it never happened" or reset button concept.

I'm not sure why they felt the need to do both Twilight and E2. One really needed to get the boot (I'd definately choose E2!). But they wanted YEAR OF HELL and CHILDREN OF TIME knock-offs and they stuck with it.

Also, where the f#%* was Daniels all those years Archer suffered and when the Earth went kablooie? The same applies regarding E2...

Daniels, you lousy McGuffin.

 

[Captain59]

pookha said:
i think it is great until the stupid super archer silliness at the end when it has been established just getting struck by bolt from the xindi gun kills we see archer still firing a weapon while grasping the weapon in the hand of the shoulder that was struck.
and of course both phlox and tpol went down with one shot.

This is the only thing that bothered me about the episode. There is no way Archer would not have gone down if he got shot like that.

Other than that one instance, this is one of my all time favorite episodes of Star Trek. This episode shows what the teaser is all about. If you don't continue to watch the episode after seeing Earth get destroyed, then I don't know what you'll watch. This episode was chosen as the fan favorite during the voting campaign at the end of the series, although fans only had a handful of episodes to choose.

To answer one of Mott's original questions, I think Archer was going to tell T'Pol that if they get through this, maybe they could see what happens between the two of them. Obviously T'Pol has grown very affectionate towards Archer, and apparently Archer can feel and appreciate that. Even though his memory is only a few hours old, Archer wants to see if a relationship can work between them. Maybe, though, that means Archer has always had feelings for T'Pol?

About the Ceti eel...do we know which planet the humans landed on in this episode? I think T'Pol only said it was in the Ceti Alpha system. Maybe Ceti Alpha IV was not too close to its sun to support life as well. Do we know from Star Trek III that the eels are on all the planets? Perhaps they're only on Ceti Alpha V?

I agree that a little pause and hint of recognition would have been neat at the end.

Since this is established canon, then this episode is actually the way it happened in the first timeline. Originally, Earth was destoryed, and there was no UFP, no Kirk, no Picard, nothing. Only after Phlox figured out the cure for Archer did history change.

So, I guess we owe all of Star Trek to Dr. Phlox!!!

 

[Noname Given]

MeanJoePhaser said:
Also, where the f#%* was Daniels all those years Archer suffered and when the Earth went kablooie? The same applies regarding E2...

Daniels, you lousy McGuffin.

Actually, Daniels, and Human/Federation time travel tech probably didn't exist in that timeline given the destrution of Earth, etc. That certainly wasn't an issue for me.

As for the OP's question of other 'good' episodes:

3rd Season:
-----------
Anomoly
Azati Prime
Damage
The Forgotten


4th Season:
-----------
The Forge]/Awakening/Kishara (all one story)
Babel One/United/The Anear (all one story)
In A Mirror Darkly (Parts 1 and 2)
Demons/Terra Prime (all one story)

 

[Captain59]

There are lots of good episodes, but if you like this kind of alternate timeline thing and time travel, definitely watch E2. That's one of my favorites as well. Oh, and the two In A Mirror Darkly episodes are a must, from which this line I love from Part II:

"He's not available right now." - Archer, concerning Admiral Black.

I won't spoil it for you, but the way he words that always cracks me up.

 

[commodore64]

Don't bother watching E2. It's "okay," but not that great.

IAMD (In a Mirror Darkly I and II) is fun, and deserves a watch.

 

[Kenobi]

Mott the barber said:
Any others from ENT. on par with this?

Similitude is one of my favorites. Great episode.

 

[Captain59]

commodore64 said:
Don't bother watching E2. It's "okay," but not that great.

He's asking what people like, not what people don't like. I'll give my recommendations, and you give yours. I happen to think E2 is an excellent and very entertaining episode, and think he will too.

 

[number6]

Meh.. This whole forum is about what people hate more than what people like!!

I loved (in no particular order):
Silent Enemy
The Andorian Incident
Fusion
Stigma
A Night In Sickbay
Singularity
The Council-ZeroHour (the end of the Xindi arc)
The Vulcan Arc
Demons/Terra Prime
IAMD
Similitude
Carbon Creek
The Communicator
Unexpected
Strange New World
Shockwave
Dead Stop
Future Tense
First Flight
Dear Doctor
Babel One/United

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Noel Given said:

MeanJoePhaser said:
Also, where the f#%* was Daniels all those years Archer suffered and when the Earth went kablooie? The same applies regarding E2...

Daniels, you lousy McGuffin.

Actually, Daniels, and Human/Federation time travel tech probably didn't exist in that timeline given the destrution of Earth, etc. That certainly wasn't an issue for me.

Except changes to the timeline happen slowly or some shit...basically, Daniels could intervene during Storm Front...so why not Twilight?

It doesn't add up. I hate temporal mechanics.

 

[bluedana]

Mott, I think this episode is one of the best Trek episodes I've seen. I really can watch it repeatedly, and still get a little bit of that tingly dread when the Xindi show up that last time. Lots of oh, sh*t! moments, starting with the teaser, and going all the way through to watching the Bridge crew fly out into space. Archer's reactions, especially in the teaser, at dinner, and as he listens to T'Pol's weary but gentle explanation of what happened, hit me every single time. Everybody is on their A-game in this episode. As for how many shots does it take . . .? Who cares, really? I might as well get upset at every shoot-em-up cop show where the hero hits his mark in one, and the bad guy misses a million times.

Well, the planet's a big place... few creatures the size of the ceti eel live everywhere on the planet. Besides, it didn't even know how to fly (or possibly even swim). Maybe the colonists chose to live on the continent that had no ceti eels.

Exactly. Rattlesnakes are a problem in, say, Arizona; not so much in New England. Or Sweden.

I'm pretty sure that they reference the fifth planet in the Ceti Alpha system, which we learn in TWOK was devastated when Ceti Alpha VI blew. Khan says that it was only his "superior intellect" that caused them to survive. That doesn't mean that ordinary humans scraping along would have. I think, as startrekwatcher says, we're meant to make the connection that these last 6000 humans were doomed anyway. I appreciated that it wasn't spelled out; the writers trusted fans to make that pickup.

Twilight is tied, in my mind, with Similitude and Cogenitor for drama played well, and with the last 6 or so episodes of Season 3 (Azati Prime through Zero Hour) for enjoyment. Although E2 is a reset episode, and not one of "The Best," in my opinion, I do think it's very good in taking a different "what if?" tack than Twilight does.

 

[Nebusj]

MeanJoePhaser said:
basically, Daniels could intervene during Storm Front...so why not Twilight?

It doesn't add up. I hate temporal mechanics.

Daniels got what he was after in ``Twilight'', a destroyed Earth. When that didn't stick, he was at least able in ``Storm Front'' to kill off (it seems) Archer's Suliban guardian angel of Silik. Daniels will take what consolation prizes he can get.

 

[Odon]

Yes, people are forgetting that when Chekov et al landed on Ceti Alpha V it was a wind-swept wasteland.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Odon said:
Yes, people are forgetting that when Chekov et al landed on Ceti Alpha V it was a wind-swept wasteland.

Khan didn't have any starships to evacuate in, though. So the potential tragedy of the planet becoming a wasteland if humanity had remained there undetected...isn't.

 

[commodore64]

Captain59 said:

commodore64 said:
Don't bother watching E2. It's "okay," but not that great.

He's asking what people like, not what people don't like. I'll give my recommendations, and you give yours. I happen to think E2 is an excellent and very entertaining episode, and think he will too.

I know. I'm just saying: I'm not too crazy about it. It's not awful.

Number 6 -- everyone is a critic. I think that's kinda just life. I had someone at "the top" of my company tell me recently "it's easier to be a critic than a movie director." So true. And yet, I think "movie critic" is something we're all born with. Again, doesn't mean I hate Enterprise or dislike Berman or Braga's work. As I've stated before, I think they did a mostly good job.

Edit: Captain59, it's okay for people to voice their opinions ... like people saying, "I wasn't that crazy about Twilight and think there was hype." At least, since a mod did so -- I'm assuming it's okay.