Twenty years since "The Jem'Hadar"

[Dick_Valentine]

If only the Oddesey had left it's saucer section docked at the station....
(Or had its slightly pompous captain not been told it could do that? )

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the producers originally intend for that to be the Enterprise?
(With I'm sure a script tweak to ensure the big D had a longer death ensuring (offscreen ) beam outs of its crew )

That would've doubled the shock wouldn't it?
AND meant we got the nicer looking Enterprise E in Generations, to boot!

 

[MakeshiftPython]

If only the Oddesey had left it's saucer section docked at the station....
(Or had its slightly pompous captain not been told it could do that? )

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the producers originally intend for that to be the Enterprise?
(With I'm sure a script tweak to ensure the big D had a longer death ensuring (offscreen ) beam outs of its crew )

That would've doubled the shock wouldn't it?
AND meant we got the nicer looking Enterprise E in Generations, to boot!

I don't think so, but one of the previews definitely teased audiences into thinking it would make an appearance and be destroyed. This aired after "All Good Things...", so it was definitely playing with everyone's expectations that anything could happen now that TNG had finished its run.

 

[TheSubCommander]

If only the Oddesey had left it's saucer section docked at the station....
(Or had its slightly pompous captain not been told it could do that? )

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the producers originally intend for that to be the Enterprise?
(With I'm sure a script tweak to ensure the big D had a longer death ensuring (offscreen ) beam outs of its crew )

That would've doubled the shock wouldn't it?
AND meant we got the nicer looking Enterprise E in Generations, to boot!

I've never heard that before.

Ship-wise, Odyssey and Enterprise-D are nearly identical. Since the Odyssey was built after Enterprise, it actually may have more advanced technology, so from that standpoint, the loss of Odyssey is no less, and perhaps more, shocking than loosing the Enterprise, technologically speaking.

As for shock value simply because we know the Enterprise and its crew and we didn't for the Odyssey, it may have impacted the episode more if we were watching the Enterprise-D being destroyed instead of the Odyssey, but I think if Generations started with the Enterprise-E right off the bat, a lot of people, including TNG fans who didn't necessarily watch DS9, would have been confused as to the fate of Enterprise-D. So while it might have been good for an episode of DS9, it wouldn't have been good for the movies. Besides, Enterprise-D deserved a big screen death. Whether it got a worthy one, is another matter entirely

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I always hated how easy the Odyssey was taken down in "The Jem'Hadar". The massive starship gets pummeled while those shrimp shuttle crafts fly away with a few dents and burns. Why no photon torpedoes were used in that fight is beyond me. At the very least they could've taken down one Jem'Hadar fighter.

 

[TheSubCommander]

I chalk the destruction of the Odyssey to:
1. Inept and overconfident captain

2. They never faced the Jem'Hadar before: had zero intel on them and no experience fighting them

3. Not much you can do when a ship does a suicide run like that. For all we know, the Jem'Hadar ship that rammed the Odyssey was packed with explosives to magnify the blast.

4. The scene was intentionally done for OMG the Federation could be BEAT! When the enemy can take out the most powerful class of ship (at that time), it's meant to shock you.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

^ Yeah I agree with everything you said.

It's just lame that TPTB didn't represent the Galaxy class to it's full potential. They did the same thing in GEN. Where the ENT-D was taken down by an obsolete bird of prey. They nerfed the Galaxy class for faux drama and tension. When in reality the both the ENT-D and Odyssey could've won those fights. But that's too much like right. Oh well.

Jem'Hadar is still an outstanding episode and ushered in the change of pace and story which would define DS9.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I always hated how easy the Odyssey was taken down in "The Jem'Hadar". The massive starship gets pummeled while those shrimp shuttle crafts fly away with a few dents and burns.

The runabouts were intentionally let go by the Jem'Hadar so that Eris would be allowed to spy.

 

[TheSubCommander]

^ Yeah I agree with everything you said.

It's just lame that TPTB didn't represent the Galaxy class to it's full potential. They did the same thing in GEN. Where the ENT-D was taken down by an obsolete bird of prey. They nerfed the Galaxy class for faux drama and tension. When in reality the both the ENT-D and Odyssey could've won those fights. But that's too much like right. Oh well.

Jem'Hadar is still an outstanding episode and ushered in the change of pace and story which would define DS9.

Well, think of it this way: things like that happen in real life. The Bismarck was taken out by a wing of aging, antiquated WWI British bi-planes! Both the Yamato and Musashi were two of the largest and most powerful battleships ever constructed, yet both were pretty ineffectual overall, and neither survived WW2.

While I agree the Enterprise-D was unceremoniously lost, it did technically win the battle. It was more a failure of protocol, than an aging BOP taking out a Galaxy class. Geordi's VISOR had been compromised by Romulans once before, so when he was captured in Generations, the crew failed to detect the mods by Dr. Soren, which led to the destruction of the Enterprise. Any ship, even the Enterprise is vulnerable to torpedoes when its shields are down.

As for Odyssey, its role was purely sacrificial for the story. But if you want to analyze it further, you can say it is an analogue to traditional military power, and the Jem, Hadar is the analogue to asymmetrical warfare. The US Navy lost dozens of ships, and a few hundred damaged, to kamikazis. Despite being a world superpower, the US has proven vulnerable to guerrilla and terrorist warfare, as well, causing radical shifts in strategy. Odyssey's destruction simply highlighted that, and basically called for a need to the Feds to change, which indirectly leads to the rise of Sisko, who is the type of leader the Feds need for that new threat.

I always hated how easy the Odyssey was taken down in "The Jem'Hadar". The massive starship gets pummeled while those shrimp shuttle crafts fly away with a few dents and burns.

The runabouts were intentionally let go by the Jem'Hadar so that Eris would be allowed to spy.

True, and to let the survivors run back to the Federation and tell the story of how one of their finest ships was destroyed so easily.

 

[arch101]

Great game-changer ep. It was a pretty good shock to see the utopian Federation and all the wonderful advances we'd been seeing since '87 fall victim to a new enemy that would willingly throw away ships and personnel just to prove a point. I remember suddenly feeling that the Feds were in even more trouble than they were against to Borg. Who knew 4 years of interstellar war were ahead?

 

[E-DUB]

The destruction of the Odyssey was an "Oh, My God" moment alright, but then when Eris icily gave the line "You have no idea of what's begun here.", it sent chills down my spine.

 

[Dick_Valentine]

The destruction of the Odyssey was an "Oh, My God" moment alright, but then when Eris icily gave the line "You have no idea of what's begun here.", it sent chills down my spine.

They never really revealed where she beamed to either.

Non-canon sources like the Star Trek Fact Files speculated that Dominion transporter technology was superior and she was beamed THROUGH the wormhole.
Or the Dominion had a cloaked ship somewhere close by (and can beam through it )

^ Yeah I agree with everything you said.

It's just lame that TPTB didn't represent the Galaxy class to it's full potential. They did the same thing in GEN. Where the ENT-D was taken down by an obsolete bird of prey. They nerfed the Galaxy class for faux drama and tension. When in reality the both the ENT-D and Odyssey could've won those fights. But that's too much like right. Oh well.

Jem'Hadar is still an outstanding episode and ushered in the change of pace and story which would define DS9.

There's always been a disparity between how powerful Trek ships, the Galaxy class in particular, are written to be and how the visual effects crews present this/have the budget for.

The episode of TNG with the Enterprise fighting the Husnock warship I think made a rod for the back of the SFX guys as for every battle from then on all the fans could think was
"why can't it always do that?"

99% of the time you'll get 1 shot of the ship firing 1 phaser shot, cut back to the actors, they yell fire again then it might fire 2 or 3 photons.
BOOM! That's it, fight over :P

 

[Richard Baker]

I think they also choose to use a Galaxy class ship to destroy as a symbol that TNG was over and lets move on.
When I watch the Odyssey's destruction it appears that the damage to the secondary hull breached Engineering and warp plasma from the core escapes only to be drawn into the bussard collector on the starboard nacelle.

 

[Cyke101]

I don't think so, but one of the previews definitely teased audiences into thinking it would make an appearance and be destroyed. This aired after "All Good Things...", so it was definitely playing with everyone's expectations that anything could happen now that TNG had finished its run.

I really dislike that the teaser showed the Odyssey blowing up. That's the climax of the episode! Showing her in battle would've been enough of a teaser and still would have lured the fans into guessing it was the E-D, I think.

Still, my jaw dropped when the fighter made that kamikaze run.

On a side note, in hindsight it would've been awkward to use the E-D for that scene. For one, it would mean the Dominion would becoming enemies of the TNG cast, when they were always meant to be DS9 villains. This episode was a full push to show that it was different than TNG, but blowing up the E-D would've made them Picard's personal foes and rob something definitive from DS9.

99% of the time you'll get 1 shot of the ship firing 1 phaser shot, cut back to the actors, they yell fire again then it might fire 2 or 3 photons.
BOOM! That's it, fight over :P

These fights also tend to be mostly made up of shots on the bridge where Data and Worf narrate the battle, too. "Firing phasers... no effect!" *rock* "Shields are down to 75%. Hull breaches on Decks 10 through 15."

As a kid, I wanted to see those hull breaches!

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

1994 was a bad year for the Galaxy class starship. The Odyssey is lost here, the Enterprise-D blows up THRICE in "All Good Things", and then twice more for good in "Generations" that winter.

This episode destroys the Odyssey purely as a plot point, but it DID drive the point home. I remember being utterly thrilled that the show would bring in the added firepower of a ship JUST LIKE THE ENTERPRISE - and then demonstrate that in a straight stand-up fight, it would have made little difference if Picard and crew were on hand. I recall that at the time DS9 was being laughed at by the fans as being Starfleet's unwanted child assignment compared to the Enterprise - understaffed, underpowered, and with three small (but cool) runabouts to take care of anything. Had some great stories to that point, but nothing on the galactic scale of importance like the TNG gang fought every other episode. Then THIS happened and changed the game permenantly.

While I did miss the greater focus on relatively smaller conflicts, the way they went increased the stakes and made me cheer for our heroes' choices and fates all the more. This episode was that turning point. And damn, I'm way older now.

Mark

 

[Timo]

I don't really see what Picard would have done differently in that battle. If the E-D survived where the Odyssey didn't, it wouldn't be due to the skill, effort or personality of her captain, or her flight controller, tactical officer or chief engineer.

The Odyssey under Keogh maneuvered, rotated shields, fired back, analyzed the enemy, and bravely held on as long as vulnerable sidekicks were in danger - all this was typical E-D fare. Not firing torpedoes was also standard TNG stuff: at close range, those were said to be just as deadly to the firing ship as to the target!

blowing up the E-D would've made them Picard's personal foes

Only if Picard weren't a casualty himself. And I don't see a reason to stop short of killing all the TNG characters if their ship is going to be lost for "dramatic impact". Why hold back on said impact?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cyke101]

blowing up the E-D would've made them Picard's personal foes

Only if Picard weren't a casualty himself. And I don't see a reason to stop short of killing all the TNG characters if their ship is going to be lost for "dramatic impact". Why hold back on said impact?

Timo Saloniemi

True, and I never underestimate the power of character shields. Thankfully shows like Game of Thrones are making me question my faith and perception in trusted tropes.

But since we're on the meta-track, one reason to hold back on said-impact, the one thing that Picard had over Keogh, was that lucrative film deal

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I've been trying to look for the teaser for the episode with the Odyssey blowing up, but only found the regular trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekoqXc4Vpe0

 

[Cyke101]

I've been trying to look for the teaser for the episode with the Odyssey blowing up, but only found the regular trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekoqXc4Vpe0

Yeah, I'm not sure if that particular trailer is still on Youtube anymore, but it's been corroborated by a blogger at least, and mention in the DS9 companion

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/10/star-trek-deep-space-nine-rewatch-the-jemhadar

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I don't really see what Picard would have done differently in that battle. If the E-D survived where the Odyssey didn't, it wouldn't be due to the skill, effort or personality of her captain, or her flight controller, tactical officer or chief engineer.

The Odyssey under Keogh maneuvered, rotated shields, fired back, analyzed the enemy, and bravely held on as long as vulnerable sidekicks were in danger - all this was typical E-D fare. Not firing torpedoes was also standard TNG stuff: at close range, those were said to be just as deadly to the firing ship as to the target!

Timo Saloniemi

Do you recall what episode this was said in by chance?

The Odyssey going down I don't have an issue with. It just seems like it should've been able to shoot down at least one of the Jem'Hadar ships. Again I attribute this to TPTB/Production crew behind the scenes nerfing the galaxy class (in both "The Jem'Hadar and GEN) for drama. In the "Changing Face of Evil" we see it only takes 2-3 photon torpedoes to destroy a Jem'Hadar fighter. In SOA and Tears of the Prophets; 4 shots from Klingon disruptors can destroy a Jem'Hadar fighter. While some augmentation to the weapons may have been used. A post-BOBW Galaxy class should have been enough to at least take down one ship, maybe two.

The Enterprise vs The Husnok ship is a good example of what the ship is capable of.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_XbWq49vUM[/yt]



Compare to the pitful display seen in GEN. ONE FRAKKING PHASER TO DEFEND THE SHIP?! Really Berman, Braga and Moore? What makes things worse is that Berman, Braga and Moore worked on "Equinox" together. In that episode the EMH from the Equinox was calling relaying the shield frequencies of VOY back to the Equinox crew. VOY pulls through with no crippling damage (despite hull breaches, losing the weapons array, and impulse engines) that will effect the ships continued voyage home or threaten to destroy the ship.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PQ36c9Uo6A[/yt]


Compare the above to the Enterprise fighting the Borg Cube in BOBW when they fired all weapons (phasers and torpedoes) simultaneously.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRjiZZyD7n4[/yt]

 

[Cyke101]

I don't really see what Picard would have done differently in that battle. If the E-D survived where the Odyssey didn't, it wouldn't be due to the skill, effort or personality of her captain, or her flight controller, tactical officer or chief engineer.

The Odyssey under Keogh maneuvered, rotated shields, fired back, analyzed the enemy, and bravely held on as long as vulnerable sidekicks were in danger - all this was typical E-D fare. Not firing torpedoes was also standard TNG stuff: at close range, those were said to be just as deadly to the firing ship as to the target!

Timo Saloniemi

Do you recall what episode this was said in by chance?

There's an instance in Q Who, when the Borg Cube takes out the ship's shields and drops her out of warp. IIRC, when the Cube is approaching, Riker and Picard opt for a last ditch torpedo attack at close range. When Data says will destroy the ship, they're about to proceed anyway when they're interrupted by Q.