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Trek's lowest moment

^You can agree with him all you want, but condemning a film that doesn't even have a finished script, is months away from beginning principal photography, and won't be out in theaters for a year or two is like arguing that the color music is five. You don't know anything about the film, and have no basis for your condemnation. It therefore makes no sense to do so.

Personally, I don't like the idea that Simon Pegg is co-writing the script, and I hope all his contributions get cut out, but neither you nor I have any business saying the film Is (Present Tense) Bad before they have even started making it.
 
I *do* like the idea that Pegg is writing the script. If one of the actors from the film is taking part in the writing of said film, it is (IMHO) a sign that they care more about it than if they were simply hired actors doing a job.
 
I was really excited that Pegg was writing till his comments about science fiction being hollow and childish, which reminded me of the evergreen quip, "Fuck you Star Trek fans". I had high hopes. "Non-Trek" 2009 had a lot of credit with me before it was released, because of Abrams and the Bad Robot trailer. But it fell through, hard. STD was a nightmare of fucked up appeasement. Before those two I assumed I would probably love anything with the Star Trek label on it, now, especially if it's a continuation of the reboot, I'm skeptical at best. Wait for early reviews and a few trusted sources before bothering to be interested.
 
I wasn't alive prior to 1987, so I can't speak for anything before that and I know the franchise clearly had its bad years before that point. But for me, it was definitely the realization that after there always being a new Star Trek on TV for all my childhood and adolescent years, suddenly that was gone, and there was no guarantee of anymore cinematic Trek anytime remotely soon, either.

Pretty much, uhh... mid-2005 through mid-2007 was, I would say, Trek's low point for me as a franchise. I was heartbroken. I'd been active in the Save Enterprise campaign (and it wasn't my first tango with that era's similar fare, either, after having been active for Save Farscape as well) but I saw that the writing was on the wall. That campaign just couldn't get itself together enough to make a difference. Mad respect to those involved, and I met some wonderful people, but... yeah.

When news started swirling of a new movie I dared to hope. Thankfully, for me the new films are delivering. I'm still crushed that there's no more TV Trek, but I do believe that it is only a matter of time. Maybe next year... probably not, of course. Nah, it's more likely we're barely halfway through another TOS-to-TNG (and possibly even longer) lull, but I've made my peace with it.
 
I was really excited that Pegg was writing till his comments about science fiction being hollow and childish, which reminded me of the evergreen quip, "Fuck you Star Trek fans". I had high hopes. "Non-Trek" 2009 had a lot of credit with me before it was released, because of Abrams and the Bad Robot trailer. But it fell through, hard. STD was a nightmare of fucked up appeasement. Before those two I assumed I would probably love anything with the Star Trek label on it, now, especially if it's a continuation of the reboot, I'm skeptical at best. Wait for early reviews and a few trusted sources before bothering to be interested.

Not to be argumentative, but this was my view on ID and I ended up skipping it, and missing out on something that I enjoyed quite a bit.

I got that Abrams Trek isn't your thing, and that's fine. But, if ID taught me anything is see myself and make my own conclusions.

Just my two cents. Obviously, I have enjoyed Abrams Trek and consider to be in the top 5 of Trek films (09 for sure, and ID hovers between 5 and 6). So, I can understand the other side too, but it can set someone up for massive disappointment.

But then, my point of view, especially on films, has always been odd. I blame my dad.
 
"Star Trek" 2009 and the rise of the anti-Trek film franchise.

I couldn't agree more. And the next movie, too. It's everything but Star Trek.

People used to say the same about Enterprise. Or Deep Space Nine. Or the Next Generation. Or the classic movies. Or the cartoons. Or TOS season 3.

It's like some cycle where every generation of fandom is certain the current Trek is the worst thing ever.
 
"Star Trek" 2009 and the rise of the anti-Trek film franchise.

I couldn't agree more. And the next movie, too. It's everything but Star Trek.

People used to say the same about Enterprise. Or Deep Space Nine. Or the Next Generation. Or the classic movies. Or the cartoons. Or TOS season 3.

It's like some cycle where every generation of fandom is certain the current Trek is the worst thing ever.

Star Trek fell apart after the original pilot. What a catastrophe after such a promising start. It never recovered.

fireproof, if you think your view on films is odd, I should show you my Trek film rankings sometime. It's enough to give some fans heart troubles. :lol:
 
^You can agree with him all you want, but condemning a film that doesn't even have a finished script ...
No one writing or producing the next movie has admitted that the previous two movies were flawed or stated that the next movie is going to be substantially different in terms of theme, style or message.

While there are some new people in some positions within the writing and production team, what the next movie is going to be is likely "more of the same."

Good news if you liked the previous, bad news if you didn't.

:)
 
Hold on.

So Abrams implying he hadn't liked TMP as a kid, and that Trek had some silly elements over the last few decades, was terrible and arrogent and disrespectful and immature and blah blah blah.

Yet Pegg should publicly tear his predecessors a new one because...a few fans on the Internet are incapable of waiting to watch his work before judging it?

Well, I admit- airing dirty laundry to woo critical fans onto your side is the Roddenberry thing to do. Personally, I always found it petty and tacky.
 
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I think I much rather want to wait for the film and make my own conclusions. Simon Pegg is a scifi fan so he might have great ideas.

He's definitely a Doctor Who fan
 
"Star Trek" 2009 and the rise of the anti-Trek film franchise.

I couldn't agree more. And the next movie, too. It's everything but Star Trek.

People used to say the same about Enterprise. Or Deep Space Nine. Or the Next Generation. Or the classic movies. Or the cartoons. Or TOS season 3.

It's like some cycle where every generation of fandom is certain the current Trek is the worst thing ever.


Yep. I still vividly remember how so many people hated DS9 when it first came out because it "wasn't real Star Trek"... now many people often hold it up as the finest Trek!
 
So Abrams implying he hadn't liked TMP as a kid...

Um... he never said that. What he said was put up here.

There was no "implying" involved, he flat out said he didn't like Star Trek, thought it was too philosophical, and that he wasn't a fan even while he was making 2009. He wasn't referring to TMP, he was referring to Star Trek generally.
 
So Abrams implying he hadn't liked TMP as a kid...

Um... he never said that. What he said was put up here.

There was no "implying" involved, he flat out said he didn't like Star Trek, thought it was too philosophical, and that he wasn't a fan even while he was making 2009. He wasn't referring to TMP, he was referring to Star Trek generally.

Yes, Abrams was not a fan of Star Trek, and he was never shy in admitting that fact. The results are, of course, going to vary by individual but I think his lack of fandom allowed him to make choices that perhaps would not have been made.

I think that Trek 09, despite Abrams profession about not wanting it to be too philosophical, hit upon Roddenberry's philosophy quite well with Kirk's arc.
 
Not to mention that the Star Trek non-fan directors are the ones who made (generally held opinions, but opinions I share) the best Trek films to date:

Nicholas Meyer (The Undiscovered Country....my personal fave of the original six, and The Wrath of Khan).

JJ Abrams (Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness).

Fireproof, I completely agree. Non-fan directors can make the choices that fan or "in-the-family" directors would not have, and usually (I emphasize usually) make good decisions that result in the highest audience yield, and ergo, the highest returns in box office. (The exception being Nemesis for the TNG era.... Nemesis is my fave TNG film, but it had many flaws that fractured the fanbase...back when I actually considered myself a fan of things, I fell on the pro-Nemesis side, and damn near put the final coffin in Star Trek.)

As far as some are concerned, Nemesis (and Enterprise) did drive the final nails into the coffin.

Certainly not my view.

But, to paraphrase The Gunslinger: "The world has moved on."
 
Yes, Abrams was not a fan of Star Trek, and he was never shy in admitting that fact. The results are, of course, going to vary by individual but I think his lack of fandom allowed him to make choices that perhaps would not have been made.

Should not have been made.

I think that Trek 09, despite Abrams profession about not wanting it to be too philosophical, hit upon Roddenberry's philosophy quite well with Kirk's arc.

What philosophy are you talking about? Because Kirk's arc in 2009 was all about privilege and destiny. It was: have a rough life, have a mentor that likes what your father did, cheat and get caught, get nearly kicked out, have an idiot for a mentor that promotes you to first officer over every other qualified person on the ship, be told you have a destiny, emotionally manipulate a near-genocide survivor to get command of a ship, and the brilliant plan no one else in the whole universe can come up with except you is "take the fight to him".

Not to mention that the Star Trek non-fan directors are the ones who made (generally held opinions, but opinions I share) the best Trek films to date:

Nicholas Meyer (The Undiscovered Country....my personal fave of the original six, and The Wrath of Khan).

JJ Abrams (Star Trek and Star Trek Into Darkness).

As I posted elsewhere, there's a big difference between these two "non-fans". Meyer was a non-fan in the sense that he'd never seen it before taking the job and was only vaguely aware of Trek as a thing. Abrams had actively watched the stuff and did not like it. He thought it was too philosophical. Meyer was a blank slate, Abrams actively disliked what Trek actually was. Huge world of difference there.

And hey, since we're talking about Meyer and Abrams...

TrekMovie: Have you see seen the new JJ Abrams Star Trek movies and do you have an opinion on them?

Nicholas Meyer: Yes, I have. My biggest opinion is that I am having a hard time understanding them. I may be too old to understand them. But I don’t understand Spock going around slugging people. That doesn’t seem in character with Spock. And I sometimes don’t understand what they are about – what the theme is – other than making another Star Trek movie.

TrekMovie: How did you feel about the death scene between your ‘Wrath of Khan’ and the one in ‘Into Darkness?’ Some fans felt it was a bit of a rip-off of the scene in Star Trek II. Did you see it as an homage to Star Trek II? Did you feel privileged that the scene was recreated in such a way?

Nicholas Meyer: Well, you have to be flattered that somebody wants to sort of try and make your movie again. But the difference is between a rip-off and an homage is that you are supposed to add something.

And...

Nicholas Meyer: “I think, and I’ve made this analogy before, that Star Trek is a bottle into which different vintages can be poured. Over the years a lot of different vintages have been poured. Give you another way of looking at it: if you know the Catholic Mass, you know that many, many composers have set that mass to music. You know that the Brahm’s German Requiem has no relation to the Mozart Coronation Requiem, or the Haydn Mass… you would never know you were listening to the same piece because the music transforms the words, and the vintage may transform the bottle.”

“So my reaction, and I remember somebody saying ‘Not your grandfather’s Star Trek‘ when they were talking about J.J.’s stuff. And I was thinking, I can’t really be a judge of this because it is so different from what I understood. I made a lot of changes when I came to that Star Trek thing, because I used to say, ‘Well, why are they all wearing pajamas?’ I made it into the Navy. It was about the Navy in space. But I didn’t think I changed the characters. I thought Kirk and Spock and those people were who they were.

And I think the biggest thing that shocked me about J.J. was Spock beating the shit out of somebody, and thinking, ‘No, that’s changing the shape of the bottle.’ And it may be very entertaining, and it may make a gazillion dollars, but that’s changing the shape of the bottle. I guess that was my thought.”

I couldn't agree more, Mr. Meyer.
 
Well, like Meyer said: Perhaps he was just too old to understand.


I've enjoyed Star Trek ever since I caught reruns in the early '70's and Star Trek TAS in first run ('72-'73). I haven't seen a thing yet that made me say: "This is not Star Trek" since then...be it the films or the series.

My bottom line is that life's too short to be slavish to only one aspect or era of Star Trek. I love it all, because throughout my 45 years of existence, Star Trek has only had one mission as far as I'm concerned: Entertain me! This it has done in spades.
I hope I live another 45+ healthy years to see more Star Trek, and to see how it evolves/changes under other directors/showrunners/casts
 
So many of the myriad complaints about Abrams Trek come down to one thing when accounting for source and which elements are being complained about; they all strike me as so much "It's wrong because it's not how I would have done it." And that's how it strikes me not only here, but across the 'net.
 
^ How is that any different than people who like/love the movies, just because they do?
 
Yes, Abrams was not a fan of Star Trek, and he was never shy in admitting that fact. The results are, of course, going to vary by individual but I think his lack of fandom allowed him to make choices that perhaps would not have been made.

Should not have been made.

I think that Trek 09, despite Abrams profession about not wanting it to be too philosophical, hit upon Roddenberry's philosophy quite well with Kirk's arc.

What philosophy are you talking about? Because Kirk's arc in 2009 was all about privilege and destiny. It was: have a rough life, have a mentor that likes what your father did, cheat and get caught, get nearly kicked out, have an idiot for a mentor that promotes you to first officer over every other qualified person on the ship, be told you have a destiny, emotionally manipulate a near-genocide survivor to get command of a ship, and the brilliant plan no one else in the whole universe can come up with except you is "take the fight to him".



As I posted elsewhere, there's a big difference between these two "non-fans". Meyer was a non-fan in the sense that he'd never seen it before taking the job and was only vaguely aware of Trek as a thing. Abrams had actively watched the stuff and did not like it. He thought it was too philosophical. Meyer was a blank slate, Abrams actively disliked what Trek actually was. Huge world of difference there.

And hey, since we're talking about Meyer and Abrams...

TrekMovie: Have you see seen the new JJ Abrams Star Trek movies and do you have an opinion on them?

Nicholas Meyer: Yes, I have. My biggest opinion is that I am having a hard time understanding them. I may be too old to understand them. But I don’t understand Spock going around slugging people. That doesn’t seem in character with Spock. And I sometimes don’t understand what they are about – what the theme is – other than making another Star Trek movie.

TrekMovie: How did you feel about the death scene between your ‘Wrath of Khan’ and the one in ‘Into Darkness?’ Some fans felt it was a bit of a rip-off of the scene in Star Trek II. Did you see it as an homage to Star Trek II? Did you feel privileged that the scene was recreated in such a way?

Nicholas Meyer: Well, you have to be flattered that somebody wants to sort of try and make your movie again. But the difference is between a rip-off and an homage is that you are supposed to add something.

And...

Nicholas Meyer: “I think, and I’ve made this analogy before, that Star Trek is a bottle into which different vintages can be poured. Over the years a lot of different vintages have been poured. Give you another way of looking at it: if you know the Catholic Mass, you know that many, many composers have set that mass to music. You know that the Brahm’s German Requiem has no relation to the Mozart Coronation Requiem, or the Haydn Mass… you would never know you were listening to the same piece because the music transforms the words, and the vintage may transform the bottle.”

“So my reaction, and I remember somebody saying ‘Not your grandfather’s Star Trek‘ when they were talking about J.J.’s stuff. And I was thinking, I can’t really be a judge of this because it is so different from what I understood. I made a lot of changes when I came to that Star Trek thing, because I used to say, ‘Well, why are they all wearing pajamas?’ I made it into the Navy. It was about the Navy in space. But I didn’t think I changed the characters. I thought Kirk and Spock and those people were who they were.

And I think the biggest thing that shocked me about J.J. was Spock beating the shit out of somebody, and thinking, ‘No, that’s changing the shape of the bottle.’ And it may be very entertaining, and it may make a gazillion dollars, but that’s changing the shape of the bottle. I guess that was my thought.”

I couldn't agree more, Mr. Meyer.

You might be interested in this thread, comparing the fanrage against Wrath of Khan, Nick Meyer and Executive Producer Harve Bennett with the modern slating of Abrams and his incarnation of Trek. The complaints are exactly the same! http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=225976
 
Yes, Abrams was not a fan of Star Trek, and he was never shy in admitting that fact. The results are, of course, going to vary by individual but I think his lack of fandom allowed him to make choices that perhaps would not have been made.

Should not have been made.
Why not?

I think that Trek 09, despite Abrams profession about not wanting it to be too philosophical, hit upon Roddenberry's philosophy quite well with Kirk's arc.
What philosophy are you talking about? Because Kirk's arc in 2009 was all about privilege and destiny. It was: have a rough life, have a mentor that likes what your father did, cheat and get caught, get nearly kicked out, have an idiot for a mentor that promotes you to first officer over every other qualified person on the ship, be told you have a destiny, emotionally manipulate a near-genocide survivor to get command of a ship, and the brilliant plan no one else in the whole universe can come up with except you is "take the fight to him".

Well, and this is simplified for brevity, but how about the whole reaching your potential thing, which GR was a big proponent of (especially in TNG). Kirk is obviously contributing nothing to society at the beginning, when Pike finds him in the bar.

Privilege and destiny? Destiny I will grant but that has been established in Trek long, long before Abrams took it on ("Commanding a starship is your first, best, destiny," Captain Spock).

As for privilege, I'm sure there is an argument to be made there, but it isn't anything that others in Star Trek have done before.

As I posted elsewhere, there's a big difference between these two "non-fans". Meyer was a non-fan in the sense that he'd never seen it before taking the job and was only vaguely aware of Trek as a thing. Abrams had actively watched the stuff and did not like it. He thought it was too philosophical. Meyer was a blank slate, Abrams actively disliked what Trek actually was. Huge world of difference there.

And hey, since we're talking about Meyer and Abrams...
And Meyer never watched another Trek episode again, and had his own sensibility about what Star Trek was about (Hornblower in space, which GR actively fought against). Meyer certainly did not hold fast to the same style, or storytelling that had come before (even one film before). The pacing of TWOK is markedly different, the atmosphere is darker (approaching horror style in some scenes), and very tightly edited towards the end. I would not say that Meyer was a blank slate.

Abrams came at it as an outsider, and wanted to make it more accessible to all comers, not just Trek fans. It isn't just a blanket rejection of Star Trek, so much as a recognition of the limits that he had (and again, two of the writers were far more in to Star Trek than Abrams, so not like he didn't have people to help inform him).

You may disagree with the result, and that's fine by me. My only point is that Abrams didn't do anything that Trek had not done before. He just did it bigger, faster and louder.

Kirk's arc is straight through about a man achieving his potential. Now, could it have been done differently, and perhaps (dare I say?) better? Absolutely, and I would change things if I could. I don't buy in to Abrams hook line and sinker, any more than I do any other iteration of Trek.

I've argued this in a variety of other threads, but I think there is more to Abrams Trek than meets the eye. But, it isn't for everyone.
 
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