Trek's lowest moment

[at Quark's]

And Kirk? He was absolutely right: There is no such thing as a no-win scenario. The whole point of the program is to deliberately fix things so the cadet always loses. THIS is as much cheating as anything Kirk did.

Perhaps there is a 'cheat' in that it is probably expected by the students that the scenario can be passed succesfully, as most training scenarios can. Other than that, the point of the simulation is to see how they deal with defeat. Which is a perfectly legimitate purpose, in my eyes.

As for the rest: there are some situations in real life for which there simply is no "win". I think every human being gets to confront such situations sooner or later.

For example, seeing a relative die of a terminal cancer, after all treatments have failed. You can keep saying that you won't give up the fight, but at a certain moment in time you'll just have to accept the fact that that person is going to die of it (or has died of it). For that matter, most people probably don't want to die, but I have yet to see the first immortal human being.

Or (admittedly less of a real life experience) in some Nazi concentration camps, the Germans gave a prisoner a choice: "select 10 fellow inmates yourself that'll be executed along with you. If you refuse or try _anything_ else, trying to attack us, - or even try to stall for a few seconds- we'll pick 25." There's no "win" in that, no way of dealing with that situation in any dignified way, no way of winning by force, no way of "cheating". I wonder what Kirk would have done in that situation. Would it have been "heroic" to die charging the guards, knowing that they would kill at least 15 extra people?

 

[Cyke101]

Just throwing in there that Spock cheated so that they could overcome a real no-win scenario. But in cheating, it cost Spock his life.

For Kirk it was a no-win, since he lost his bff in the process. But for the lives of everyone on board the Enterprise and for Spock himself, it was definitely a win. So no-win is also in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Other than that, the point of the simulation is to see how they deal with defeat.

Exactly. And this is how Kirk deals with defeat. He has fulfilled the purpose of the test, in every way that matters.

As for the rest: there are some situations in real life for which there simply is no "win".

Not like this. There are some terrible circumstances that life deals to people, but in no way is this ever a result of someone or something deliberately fixing things so you'll always lose. That does not happen in real life. So if the test cheats, why shouldn't Kirk?

 

[TheSubCommander]

These are the Voyages. After three seasons of showing us how bad they are as writers, B&B finally let someone else spend a whole season bringing Trek up out of the muck and actually making it worth watching again... and then yoinked the rug right out from under us with arguably the, poorly written, poorly conceived and most generally insulting Trek episode in Trek history.

^I may have liked it if Riker was just a captain on a different ship.

Yeah, the recall to Pegasus was just weak. Would have been a lot better if they had set it as Riker and Troi aboard the Titan, with a different premise for visiting the holodeck.

That, and killing off Trip was just dumb.

 

[at Quark's]

Exactly. And this is how Kirk deals with defeat. He has fulfilled the purpose of the test, in every way that matters.

If you turn a defeat around to a win (even if only by cheating), you aren't defeated after all. So in my opinion, we actually don't see how he deals with defeat. That, we would only see in a scenario in which he has to concede defeat.

Not like this. There are some terrible circumstances that life deals to people, but in no way is this ever a result of someone or something deliberately fixing things so you'll always lose. That does not happen in real life. So if the test cheats, why shouldn't Kirk?

First of all, I'm not even really sure the scenario cheats. Was there ever given any guarantuee that any scenario can be passed or was this only the (implicit) expectation of the cadets ?

Secondly, I agree that of course real life is different in that probably( ) no one is consciously stacking the deck against you. (Although I even know some people who would believe just such a thing ). But, even if what happens in everyday life is just a series of coincidences and results of probabilities, that doesn't make life 'fair', even though no-one is cheating. Knowing that no cheat is involved would do little to ameliorate a no-win scenario in real life.

I suppose the reason for our differing viewpoints is that I think I see the KM scenario not as a test that one should be able to pass, but more as a tool to induce reflection in the cadets about what they would do when faced with such a situation in real life (having no access to any cheat). In that view, the fact that you can't pass it, or that it 'cheats', simply isn't relevant.

Perhaps the fact that it's disguised as a test can be seen as cheating on the part of Starfleet Academy.

 

[at Quark's]

to atQuark's:

According to the dialog, he actually didn't cheat until his third time through, so he went back to it once to see if he could beat it having lost once, and in so doing found out the test was programmed to make certain he failed no matter what. That was what prompted him to go back one more time and cheat his way out.

Spelled out onscreen in ST'09 for us lackwits, of course. (badly done. Not in execution, in thinking it needed spelled out)

I can appreciate that way of thinking. Viewed like that, it becomes almost comprehensible to me why he did it.

Still, I think he cheated himself out of the entire purpose of the scenario.

 

[T'Girl]

I think the problem is that the episode isn't itself racist, but the decision to cast the aliens as all-black was spearheaded by the director, and he was pretty obviously racist?

The aliens were not written as black.

This isn't a accusation, just a honest question. How do you write a character as black?

As I understand it, while two of the parts were intended by the script writer as to be cast with black actors, the majority of the Ligonian characters were left open as to what race the actors were to be. It was a decision by the director that all the roles would be cast with black actors, how would that be any more "racist" than casting the majority of the Ligonian roles with white actors?

We've seen plenty of Star Trek episodes with all white aliens, I find the director's casting decision to be refreshing and something that should have been repeated frequently.

Look how far into TNG's run you have to go to find a new group of aliens that are even slightly racially mixed.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the problem is that the episode isn't itself racist, but the decision to cast the aliens as all-black was spearheaded by the director, and he was pretty obviously racist?

The aliens were not written as black.

This isn't a accusation, just a honest question. How do you write a character as black?

As I understand it, while two of the parts were intended by the script writer as to be cast with black actors, the majority of the Ligonian characters were left open as to what race the actors were to be. It was a decision by the director that all the roles would be cast with black actors, how would that be any more "racist" than casting the majority of the Ligonian roles with white actors?

We've seen plenty of Star Trek episodes with all white aliens, I find the director's casting decision to be refreshing and something that should have been repeated frequently.

Look how far into TNG's run you have to go to find a new group of aliens that are even slightly racially mixed.

I think its more a matter of how they were portrayed, not that the planet was all black. It certainly is up to individual reception, but I personally find it more annoying that the episode is internally inconsistent with its own rules, and the general apathy that the crew appears to have in Yar's kidnapping.

That, and Riker is a terrible shot with the photon torpedoes.

 

[RandyS]

There were four:

City on the Edge of Forever
The Inner Light
Fair Haven
Spirit Folk

Spock's Brain and Code of Honor were Shakespeare compared to these.

 

[Vger23]

There were four:

City on the Edge of Forever
The Inner Light


Spock's Brain and Code of Honor were Shakespeare compared to these.

Respectfully, that is idiotic, and so contrary to almost every single individual opinion of every person who has ever seen the episodes you reference and compare, I can only assume you wrote it to get a reaction.

 

[RandyS]

There were four:

City on the Edge of Forever
The Inner Light


Spock's Brain and Code of Honor were Shakespeare compared to these.

Respectfully, that is idiotic, and so contrary to almost every single individual opinion of every person who has ever seen the episodes you reference and compare, I can only assume you wrote it to get a reaction.

No, I have genuinely always disliked those two episodes. I was just expressing an opinion.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think the problem is that the episode isn't itself racist, but the decision to cast the aliens as all-black was spearheaded by the director, and he was pretty obviously racist?

The aliens were not written as black.

That's one of the stories behind it. On the surface, it seems like a fresh, open minded idea, for a change.

On the other hand, the rumors suggested that the more primitive (stereotypical) aspects of the characters were later inserted once they went with an all black cast.

I think the problem is that the episode isn't itself racist, but the decision to cast the aliens as all-black was spearheaded by the director, and he was pretty obviously racist?

The aliens were not written as black.

This isn't a accusation, just a honest question. How do you write a character as black?

As I understand it, while two of the parts were intended by the script writer as to be cast with black actors, the majority of the Ligonian characters were left open as to what race the actors were to be. It was a decision by the director that all the roles would be cast with black actors, how would that be any more "racist" than casting the majority of the Ligonian roles with white actors?

We've seen plenty of Star Trek episodes with all white aliens, I find the director's casting decision to be refreshing and something that should have been repeated frequently.

Look how far into TNG's run you have to go to find a new group of aliens that are even slightly racially mixed.

Ironically, they probably would have went with another mainly white cast if it weren't for the director's suggestion.

This is the only episode to feature a planet wide culture that was black--(a few others had native american-like people).

There seems to be two stories behind this; one is that the director treated the cast in a racist way, so was replaced.

The other is that Rodenberry (and others) didn't like the idea of casting an all black cast in roles that seemed primitive.

To be fair, I don't know which one or if any one, is true. But he was definitely was replaced for some reason.

The idea of using an all black culture for this role? It depends on how you look at it.

 

[T'Girl]

On the other hand, the rumors suggested that the more primitive (stereotypical) aspects of the characters were later inserted once they went with an all black cast.

Which aspects were you thinking of?

 

[Nightdiamond]

Tracy Torme thought it resembled a 1940's syereotypical view of africa. Throw in the natives (Lutan) lusting after the fair skinned blonde and kidnapping her.

Those are some of the accusations involving stereotypes taken from quotes and reviews I've seen.

In fact just about the whole cast and anyone who had anything to do with it trashed it as racist.

 

[T'Girl]

Problem with part of that is Lutan didn't kidnap Tasha because he found her attractive. He'd been trying to get his wife killed in a duel, but she had keep killing her opponents. After a short martial arts demonstration Lutan though that Tasha might be skilled enough to kill his wife.

 

[Anwar]

The script said that Lutan had "Black Guards" and the director assumed this meant they must be Black Guys.

It never occurred to him that "Black Guards" referred to Elite Soldiers.

 

[Makarov]

Up the Long Ladder is way worse than Code of Honor in my opinion and I really don't think it's worth all the controversy. In fact a lot of Trek eps in general worse than Code of Honor.

 

[Chronos]

Up the Long Ladder is way worse than Code of Honor in my opinion and I really don't think it's worth all the controversy. In fact a lot of Trek eps in general worse than Code of Honor.

I think that they're both pretty racist.

I'm not really sure who gave either one the 'OK'. Same with the Fair Haven episodes and Sub Rosa. Why does Star Trek have so many Irish-themed episodes?

 

[T'Girl]

Why does Star Trek have so many Irish-themed episodes?

And why was the doctor in TOS named "McCoy" which is Irish?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Up the Long Ladder is way worse than Code of Honor in my opinion and I really don't think it's worth all the controversy. In fact a lot of Trek eps in general worse than Code of Honor.

I think that they're both pretty racist.

I'm not really sure who gave either one the 'OK'. Same with the Fair Haven episodes and Sub Rosa. Why does Star Trek have so many Irish-themed episodes?

Sub Rosa was Scottish-themed

Why does Star Trek have so many Irish-themed episodes?

And why was the doctor in TOS named "McCoy" which is Irish?

McCoy was a Scottish name originally.