Trek-economy?

[RobertScorpio]

Alright here's my take on the whole Federation economy thing.

1) Money it still exists only it's electronic.

2) Private property still exists.

3) Every citizen has a basic standard of living allowance provided for them. Shelter, Medical Care, Food, and Clothing. This is how the Feds can make the claim that there's no poverty. Anything beyond those basics requires labor. You want to spend time playing Davy Crockett at the Alamo in the Holo-Shed you gotta earn the bits to pay for it.

4) There are still shitty jobs and there are still people doing them. Who else do you think all keeps those sonic showers in the housing complex running. Robots?

5) The Federation economy runs much like our own.


It's not communism and aside from the aforementioned basic living standard it is very capitalistic indeed I would even say downright Randian Objectivist in its economy.

Nah...I'm going with Roddenberryism. There are so many episodes that contradict each other, its useless to even try. Picard states pretty much that the use of money, and material gain, are no longer 'the norm'. And yet they turn right around and spend credits all over the place. And since any conversation of economics, where it involves TREK, will no doubt go in cirlces, it all leads back to Roddenberryism.

This is the same affect as well when discussing whether or not time can be changed in STAR TREK. Spock has been debating himself on time-travel for over 40 years....so any conversation about the physics of Time-travel is a conversation about Roddenbery Theory (there is String Theory--Relativity--Evolution and now, Roddenberry Theory)

Rob

 

[Xerxes1979]

It's not communism and aside from the aforementioned basic living standard it is very capitalistic indeed I would even say downright Randian Objectivist in its economy.

How could it be Randian? Everything except holo-novels seems to be open source. That is the very anti-thesis of Atlas Shrugged.

 

[Misco]

I think the working out of boredom thing is a little bit of a stretch, I can see some people doing that of course, especially the more appealing work but what about people who work as a waitress or something?

Ah, but any compensation might be much better relative to the work in the future. A person might waitress only a few hours a day for the 24th century equivalent in wages.

But what would that 24th century equivalent in wages be? If nutrition, living quarters, medical care and everything else that makes up basic needs are automatically provided for you what could they possibly 'pay' a worker in?

 

[Xerxes1979]

But what would that 24th century equivalent in wages be? If nutrition, living quarters, medical care and everything else that makes up basic needs are automatically provided for you what could they possibly 'pay' a worker in?

Well if you live in San Fransico some areas of the bay probably are more attractive than others. Perhaps wage credits can be exchanged for increased chances of wining a lottery for properties superior those of basic housing.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Some kind of Social Democracy, I imagine.

When people 'round here invoke the Federation as communist, it seems that they don't truly understand the concept. Communism, in it's strictest sense, is an egalitarian system with no class, no state, where the means of production are in the hands of all people in common ownership. Yet it is often associated with the Leninist derivative form, which in itself is a derivative from Marxism. Or it's associated with other totalitarian variations, like Stalinism and Maoism.

Thus communism becomes a "dirty word" in association with our favorite topic of discussion -- Star Trek.

So in it's strictest sense, the Federation is not communist because on screen evidence shows that it is not stateless and the people don't hold control over the means of production in a common ownership agreement.

Which brings us back to a form of Social Democracy.

I don't know the Federation might be a communist society. We never have quite been told what the means of production is. Moist of the time it seems to simply be the energy required to power the replicators. Has an actual human product ever been described on Star Trek? I mean something like Coke, or Snickers, or the shamwow? Something that is mass produced at a central location rather than at home in a replicator. That kind of thing doesn't seem to exist anymore. I don't think much thought has ever been giving to the economy or even the daily life of the citizen in the Trek Universe. We have dozens of books of star charts and ship schematics, but what do we have on Federation life? Strange that is so since the evolution of humanity was Gene's main focus.

Some of our elite BBS friends are mixing reality with Star Trek. What the FEDERATION practices, in TREK's future, is called Roddenberryism. Its a very obvious merging of COMMUNISM (the op had it right) with good ole' bartering/captilism....creating Roddenberryism....

Rob
Scorpio

If it means that I understand concepts and I'm able to discuss them in an open forum, then I suppose I am an elitist.

The OP opened the door to a discussion of Trek's economy through the lens of socio-economic theories and practices, what you've called "mixing reality." That is what is being done here.


You can call it "Roddenberryism", but the truth is that Roddenberry's philosophical, social, and political explorations aren't sophisticated. It doesn't make Trek bad. In fact, it adds the occasional additional layer to many entertaining stories.

However, Social Democracy as a socio-political and economic ideology does just what you call "Roddenberryism", creating this mixed economy.

It's not communism and aside from the aforementioned basic living standard it is very capitalistic indeed I would even say downright Randian Objectivist in its economy.

The Federation is far from Randain because it is altruistic. In Objectivism, altruism cannot and does not exist. That's oversimplifying things I know. But, as Xerxes1979 wrote, the principals and concepts of the Federation goes against everything that's written about in Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, and Rand's non-fiction books.

Trek's future is based on often putting aside self-interest, rational or otherwise, in favor of altruistic goals.

 

[Harry Palmer]

The Federation is far from Randain because it is altruistic. In Objectivism, altruism cannot and does not exist. That's oversimplifying things I know. But, as Xerxes1979 wrote, the principals and concepts of the Federation goes against everything that's written about in Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, and Rand's non-fiction books.

Yet the most of Federation citizens at least that we've seen on screen have all been Howard Rorkian in mind set. Trying to be the best creativeness for own sake etc. I'm not saying it is totally Objectivist, but there's a lot of Objectivist traits present. If anything Trek's philosophy is a mish mash of concepts from accross the board.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

The Federation is far from Randain because it is altruistic. In Objectivism, altruism cannot and does not exist. That's oversimplifying things I know. But, as Xerxes1979 wrote, the principals and concepts of the Federation goes against everything that's written about in Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, and Rand's non-fiction books.

Yet the most of Federation citizens at least that we've seen on screen have all been Howard Rorkian in mind set. Trying to be the best creativeness for own sake etc. I'm not saying it is totally Objectivist, but there's a lot of Objectivist traits present. If anything Trek's philosophy is a mish mash of concepts from accross the board.

While there is the pursuit of individualistic success, there is still a group mindset that goes against the very tenants of Objectivism. So I can see where you're coming from, especially when one considers the ModTrek quote "...we work to better ourselves and humanity."

Of course, I love Nog's reaction to this: "What does that even mean?"

That statement, spoken often by Picard and once by Jake Sisko, contains the Randian individualism combined with a group-mind set, creating an oxymoron in terms of Objectivism.

At times, Trek is more like Patrick McGoohen's statement of individualism in The Prisoner: an individual must never lose him or herself into the collective, but cannot ignore the need to help others because, in the end, all we have is each other. POP -- protect other people.

Although, in ModTrek, the Federation almost has this "play nice or else" attitude with its citizens. The Maquis, for example.

But you hit the nail on the head, imo. Trek is a synthesis of philosophies from across the board. Or as Gene Roddenberry called it Philosophy 101.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Picard states pretty much that the use of money, and material gain, are no longer 'the norm'. And yet they turn right around and spend credits all over the place. And since any conversation of economics, where it involves TREK, will no doubt go in cirlces, it all leads back to Roddenberryism.

I have no idea what the hell "Roddenberryism" actually means.

However, I do think you're confusing something: The fact that Picard states that the use of money and material gain are no longer regular pursuits for people in the Federation, doesn't mean there actually isn't any money. It just means that people have the basics cared for, and have turned their pursuits to different things, like the betterment of oneself and the collective (pardon the phun).

Now, I believe that, in the Federation, you've simply got a choice, due to the fact that the basic necessities are provided for:

1) You spend all your time dabbling in personal pursuits, which isn't that bad if you don't mind the basic accommodations and never actually going anywhere. You're nobody important, but you don't mind.

2) You educate yourself and try to make your mark on society, by contributing actively to it's development and the development of the assets of it (like starships, buildings, technologies and such). This is a gamble; if it doesn't pay off, you still have only the basics. But you are mentally challenged and in pursuit of spiritual advancement.

3) You educate yourself but take a "non-world-changing" job; ie: a shitty job that someone's got to do. All right, it isn't wonderful, but you don't mind since you actually get so much credits you can do all sorts of wonderful things with it, redecorate, go on vacation to other planets often, etc.

4) You enlist in Starfleet, get basic accommodations and pay and explore the galaxy. You don't get to have spiritual learning, however, since you don't actually get home all that often, your basic pay makes for quite a wonderful means of procuring more then the basic needs at the times you are home (or at your retirement) and you can do wonderful stuff at your retirement, if you're still alive, that is.

If it were something like this, then there isn't actually any money in the current sense that you'll have to get money in order to get a roof over your head and something to eat. That's probably why they named it credits; I imagine most replicator patterns are actually so cheap as to be free, so the only thing you can do with credits have to do with "off-worlders" (like rare off-world replicator patterns, or travels, or whatnot).

 

[Urge]

Captain Picard goes home to the Picard-family and their farm in one of the TNG-episodes. They make old-fashioned wine with real alcohol instead of synthohol that tastes like alchol, but doesnt make you drunk. The Picard-farm is huge, so they must make wine for a lot of people. Do they give it away free? I dont think so. Since replicators have all sorts of limits, they might protest if you try to order something with real alcohol, and warn the police if you try to change the programming. That way, wine, booze and drugs might be something that has to be made the oldfashioned way.

The basic substance that fuels the replicator (it needs some sort of goo that it can re-arange into other things) must also cost something - and then you have molecules that are so advanced that you cant replicate them, so it cant make everything.

I dont realy like the idea of replicators - but if you have teleportation its the next logical step. Im not sure if I like teleportation either. Both technologies destroys the logic of things - so I will be like Picards brother at the farm - I wont use it, or buy one, prefering the oldfashioned way instead. Besides: Lots of people in Startrek says that replicated food is different from the original. Perhaps people and animals who have been teleported tastes different too? That could be a intresting experiment, starting with people:-)

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Perhaps people and animals who have been teleported tastes different too? That could be a intresting experiment, starting with people:-)

I know I'm not the one who's going to arbitrarily taste people coming out of transporters, that's for sure.

 

[Xerxes1979]

The basic substance that fuels the replicator (it needs some sort of goo that it can re-arange into other things) must also cost something - and then you have molecules that are so advanced that you cant replicate them, so it cant make everything.

The various waste sludges recovered from the water recycling processes are a valuable resource. The oraganic waste processing system subjects the sludge to a series of sterilizing heat and radiation treaments. The waste is then electrolytically reprocessed into an organic particulate suspenison that serves as the raw material for the food synthesizer systems. Remaining byproducts are conveyed to the solid watse processing system for matter replication recycling.

Star Trek : The Next Generation Technical Manual pg. 146



Poo --> food --> poo---> etc.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

The basic substance that fuels the replicator (it needs some sort of goo that it can re-arange into other things) must also cost something - and then you have molecules that are so advanced that you cant replicate them, so it cant make everything.

The various waste sludges recovered from the water recycling processes are a valuable resource. The oraganic waste processing system subjects the sludge to a series of sterilizing heat and radiation treaments. The waste is then electrolytically reprocessed into an organic particulate suspenison that serves as the raw material for the food synthesizer systems. Remaining byproducts are conveyed to the solid watse processing system for matter replication recycling.

Star Trek : The Next Generation Technical Manual pg. 146



Poo --> food --> poo---> etc.

You shit what you eat, and you eat what you shit. Gives a whole new meaning to "shitting where you eat."

 

[Bisz]

The Federation economy is what is known as post-scarcity, mostly thanks to replicators. Due to this, no consumer product has actual measurable value, with very few exceptions. This isn't due to egalitarianism, but due to actual market forces. The advent of replicators and cheap energy naturally reduces the price of basic goods to well below a penny, to a point so near zero that it might as well be zero for all practical purposes. When Burger King can charge, at best, one trillionth of a penny for a whopper because that's all the market will bear, it's easier to just charge nothing. Currency doesn't easily divide into values that small.

So yes, restaurants and shops on Earth do give things away for free, not because they're run by crazy people who don't understand economics, but because there are very few products available on Earth that are worth more than nothing, due to replicators. Free is the highest price that the market can sustain. And people who work do so out of boredom, for the most part.

This has the long-term effect of rendering currency worthless, in a very literal sense.

That is an excellent explanation, thank you very much for it.

 

[Jasper Sierra]

I think an individual's most valuable currency is time and energy. When "credits" are mentioned, I think of a representation of the time and energy of a person, such as one credit might be the average time and effort it should take to fix one sonic shower.