Trek-economy?

[Urge]

In Startrek, the humans (if not all the federation-species, I dont know) have gone communist it seems. In that movie where they travel back in time to save the whales, I think Kirk says something about money being abandoned in the future (or was it Spock?) And in a next generation-episode Picard tryes to explain a man from the past that the bank with his stocks doesnt exist anny more. He never gets around to say that, but he seems very certain that his bank is gone. Inn general, there never seems to be much trade, exept from the Ferrengi-bar and a clothing-shop in Deep Space Nine. Even though the humans have abandoned money, its possible to get "gold-pressed latinum" and trade with the Ferrengi it seems.

But even on Earth, they still have cafeterias and bars (At least in a Voyager episode I saw where one from the crew had been brought home to Earth by a high-tech alien). Does this mean that in the Star-trek universe you can enter anny bar, cafeteria or shop and take what you need?

 

[NickInABox]

That's something about the Star Trek universe that really pisses me off. That and the fact that we're supposed to believe there's no TV and everyone has a transporter and a holodeck in their living room. Bullshit. Pure bullshit.
Oh, and phones don't exist anymore.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

In Startrek, the humans (if not all the federation-species, I dont know) have gone communist it seems.

No, the word you are looking for is Socialist. They seem to be a more socialist society but still retain a level of capitalism.
I guess they managed to find a perfect Socialist/Capitalist mix.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

In Startrek, the humans (if not all the federation-species, I dont know) have gone communist it seems.

No, the word you are looking for is Socialist. They seem to be a more socialist society but still retain a level of capitalism.
I guess they managed to find a perfect Socialist/Capitalist mix.

I never expected to agree with you, Chroniton Storm, of all people.

However, you are right. They seem to have a highly developed mix of socialism and capitalism; with the good sides of both.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

In Startrek, the humans (if not all the federation-species, I dont know) have gone communist it seems.

No, the word you are looking for is Socialist. They seem to be a more socialist society but still retain a level of capitalism.
I guess they managed to find a perfect Socialist/Capitalist mix.

Some kind of Social Democracy, I imagine.

When people 'round here invoke the Federation as communist, it seems that they don't truly understand the concept. Communism, in it's strictest sense, is an egalitarian system with no class, no state, where the means of production are in the hands of all people in common ownership. Yet it is often associated with the Leninist derivative form, which in itself is a derivative from Marxism. Or it's associated with other totalitarian variations, like Stalinism and Maoism.

Thus communism becomes a "dirty word" in association with our favorite topic of discussion -- Star Trek.

So in it's strictest sense, the Federation is not communist because on screen evidence shows that it is not stateless and the people don't hold control over the means of production in a common ownership agreement.

Which brings us back to a form of Social Democracy.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

In Startrek, the humans (if not all the federation-species, I dont know) have gone communist it seems.

No, the word you are looking for is Socialist. They seem to be a more socialist society but still retain a level of capitalism.
I guess they managed to find a perfect Socialist/Capitalist mix.

Some kind of Social Democracy, I imagine.

When people 'round here invoke the Federation as communist, it seems that they don't truly understand the concept. Communism, in it's strictest sense, is an egalitarian system with no class, no state, where the means of production are in the hands of all people in common ownership. Yet it is often associated with the Leninist derivative form, which in itself is a derivative from Marxism. Or it's associated with other totalitarian variations, like Stalinism and Maoism.

Thus communism becomes a "dirty word" in association with our favorite topic of discussion -- Star Trek.

So in it's strictest sense, the Federation is not communist because on screen evidence shows that it is not stateless and the people don't hold control over the means of production in a common ownership agreement.

Which brings us back to a form of Social Democracy.

I don't know the Federation might be a communist society. We never have quite been told what the means of production is. Moist of the time it seems to simply be the energy required to power the replicators. Has an actual human product ever been described on Star Trek? I mean something like Coke, or Snickers, or the shamwow? Something that is mass produced at a central location rather than at home in a replicator. That kind of thing doesn't seem to exist anymore. I don't think much thought has ever been giving to the economy or even the daily life of the citizen in the Trek Universe. We have dozens of books of star charts and ship schematics, but what do we have on Federation life? Strange that is so since the evolution of humanity was Gene's main focus.

 

[Misco]

Yes, the Federation economy is something I've thought a lot about and still can't understand.

Do Starfleet officers work for nothing? One would presume not. However, if there is no money what do they get paid in? Various times 'credits' are spoken of but, really, what is a 'credit'? Is it just another term for money? Is the Earth a completely classless society now? Obviously, some people need to work to make the world/society function but do these people get paid for it? If not then why would they do it? As regards gold pressed latinum; clearly this is the currency of choice on Ferenginar and a bunch of other planets too so the Federation must have to deal in it/with it somehow. So, is there an exchange rate? Which brings us back around to what exactly the corresponding Federation currency would be?

Understand, I'm not nit-picking as such (Okay, I totally am...) but to be honest I'd really like the Federation economy to work in story (on a theoretical level at least) but I just don't see how it makes sense... at all. And this saddens me.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Has an actual human product ever been described on Star Trek? I mean something like Coke, or Snickers, or the shamwow? Something that is mass produced at a central location rather than at home in a replicator.

I posted what I felt like was a fairly thorough response to this question back in December.

I think the core problem with the question of Federation economics, and the reason the shows tend to stay away from it or (perhaps intentionally) contradict themselves is that in order to see what their future system that is superior to ours and is the result of discoveries in social and economic theory that we haven't made yet is, we'd have to know about it already. And if we (humanity) did, we'd probably be using it!

 

[James Wright]

I posted about this in May and someone posted a reply reminding me of a line McCoy said in STIII,"Price you name, money I got".(Hope I got the quote right!)

James

 

[hyzmarca]

The Federation economy is what is known as post-scarcity, mostly thanks to replicators. Due to this, no consumer product has actual measurable value, with very few exceptions. This isn't due to egalitarianism, but due to actual market forces. The advent of replicators and cheap energy naturally reduces the price of basic goods to well below a penny, to a point so near zero that it might as well be zero for all practical purposes. When Burger King can charge, at best, one trillionth of a penny for a whopper because that's all the market will bear, it's easier to just charge nothing. Currency doesn't easily divide into values that small.

So yes, restaurants and shops on Earth do give things away for free, not because they're run by crazy people who don't understand economics, but because there are very few products available on Earth that are worth more than nothing, due to replicators. Free is the highest price that the market can sustain. And people who work do so out of boredom, for the most part.

This has the long-term effect of rendering currency worthless, in a very literal sense.

The post-scarcity economy naturally spreads to still-scarce resources, as well, such as land. Real estate values drop like a rock, the result being that real property is cheap, but it rarely changes hands because few people want to sell, which bumps up the value a little bit.

Starships are also valuable, apparently, probably due to the amount of labor that goes into them.

Fderation Credits are more of a bookkeeping device than an actual currency, they're primarily used in trade between the Federation and other governments, and most likely represent a combination of energy and labor. they're a necessary evil for dealing with organizations outside of the Federtion which still use currency, and are useful for intra-federation bookkeeping when dealing with valuable items such as starships.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Yes, the Federation economy is something I've thought a lot about and still can't understand.

Do Starfleet officers work for nothing? One would presume not. .

Why not? A lot of the jobs seem very fullfilling. A starfleet engineer might be rewarding the same way working on a car or small engine would for gear heads.
Healing the sick is rewarding as is galatic exploration. We don't even need real doctors anymore thanks to the EMH. A hologram has no need for luxury.

It is stated several times that the Enterprise-D cleans itself and can put out fires. If they still use sceptic systems send in an exo-comp.

How many of us really enjoy our professions? In the United States we put up with shit jobs because our employers blackmail us with healthcare and the need to pay the rent. People who don't want full time professions could very well spend days painting or enjoying other crafts. Without fear of material want, people really would be free to put on plays or join community gardens or some such activity.

The only thing that might be desired is realestate. But what does having a large house prove? The things you would fill it with are not scarce or rare thanks to the replicator. The widespread support for environmentlism probably eliminates any residual excessive consumption through social shaming.

 

[noknowes]

That's something about the Star Trek universe that really pisses me off. That and the fact that we're supposed to believe there's no TV and everyone has a transporter and a holodeck in their living room. Bullshit. Pure bullshit.
Oh, and phones don't exist anymore.

Yes that is so.You are correct.

tv will aways exist.so will money.holodecks too.

sex in holodecks will be the new drug.just imagine non stop multiple orgies in holdecks

imagine.

 

[Urge]

I think TV will be gone in about ten years. DVDs have gotten a lot cheaper, people download what they want to se on the web, and its to much commercials. So its definitly realistic that people doesnt sit like dum zombies and watch channels that are supposed to cover "everything" pluss lots, and lots of commercials in the future. In ten years from now, people will see the things that intrest them, and they will buy these things as DVDs, or download it from the web. We will continue to have big screens in our homes (like they have in Startrek, and use for all other things but TV), but it wont be TV.

 

[Misco]

The Federation economy is what is known as post-scarcity, mostly thanks to replicators. Due to this, no consumer product has actual measurable value, with very few exceptions.

Free is the highest price that the market can sustain. And people who work do so out of boredom, for the most part.

This is interesting and even to my limited understanding of economics makes a certain kind of sense. I think the working out of boredom thing is a little bit of a stretch, I can see some people doing that of course, especially the more appealing work but what about people who work as a waitress or something?

Federation Credits are more of a bookkeeping device than an actual currency, they're primarily used in trade between the Federation and other governments, and most likely represent a combination of energy and labor. they're a necessary evil for dealing with organizations outside of the Federtion which still use currency, and are useful for intra-federation bookkeeping when dealing with valuable items such as starships.

I like this explanation a lot, although I still don't understand what would happen if for example the Federation traded something or other with a latinum using nation, who then gave them latinum in exchange for the goods. What would the Federation then do with the latinum?

Do Starfleet officers work for nothing? One would presume not.

Why not? A lot of the jobs seem very fullfilling. A starfleet engineer might be rewarding the same way working on a car or small engine would for gear heads.

Okay, I can accept people would maybe work in Starfleet for nothing, there are of course a lot of reasons other than financially for doing a job like that like the chance to explore 'strange new worlds', 'seek out new civilisations', have access to the latest technology or whatever. All the jobs in the vicinity of Earth or on other member worlds can't be that good though.

 

[Xerxes1979]

This is interesting and even to my limited understanding of economics makes a certain kind of sense. I think the working out of boredom thing is a little bit of a stretch, I can see some people doing that of course, especially the more appealing work but what about people who work as a waitress or something?

Ah, but any compensation might be much better relative to the work in the future. A person might waitress only a few hours a day for the 24th century equivalent in wages. With every citizen guaranteed unlimited nutrition and the equalivent of at least an efficiency apparent you would not have an equivalent glut of applicants.

Look what happened when we artifically restricted the normal workweek to 40 hours. Wages rose and the standard of living was much much better than with people killing themselves 60-80 hours a week. I rather like manmade solutions that allow us to escape the "iron law of wages".

 

[Islander]

My issue with the overall concept is a blackmarket. How the hell could one exist (and you know it does) without actually currencies?

 

[kv1at3485]

You don't need currency for a black market. Barter will do. Now, what ends up being bartered is another question altogether.

 

[RobertScorpio]

No, the word you are looking for is Socialist. They seem to be a more socialist society but still retain a level of capitalism.
I guess they managed to find a perfect Socialist/Capitalist mix.

Some kind of Social Democracy, I imagine.

When people 'round here invoke the Federation as communist, it seems that they don't truly understand the concept. Communism, in it's strictest sense, is an egalitarian system with no class, no state, where the means of production are in the hands of all people in common ownership. Yet it is often associated with the Leninist derivative form, which in itself is a derivative from Marxism. Or it's associated with other totalitarian variations, like Stalinism and Maoism.

Thus communism becomes a "dirty word" in association with our favorite topic of discussion -- Star Trek.

So in it's strictest sense, the Federation is not communist because on screen evidence shows that it is not stateless and the people don't hold control over the means of production in a common ownership agreement.

Which brings us back to a form of Social Democracy.

I don't know the Federation might be a communist society. We never have quite been told what the means of production is. Moist of the time it seems to simply be the energy required to power the replicators. Has an actual human product ever been described on Star Trek? I mean something like Coke, or Snickers, or the shamwow? Something that is mass produced at a central location rather than at home in a replicator. That kind of thing doesn't seem to exist anymore. I don't think much thought has ever been giving to the economy or even the daily life of the citizen in the Trek Universe. We have dozens of books of star charts and ship schematics, but what do we have on Federation life? Strange that is so since the evolution of humanity was Gene's main focus.

Some of our elite BBS friends are mixing reality with Star Trek. What the FEDERATION practices, in TREK's future, is called Roddenberryism. Its a very obvious merging of COMMUNISM (the op had it right) with good ole' bartering/captilism....creating Roddenberryism....

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Harry Palmer]

Alright here's my take on the whole Federation economy thing.

1) Money it still exists only it's electronic.

2) Private property still exists.

3) Every citizen has a basic standard of living allowance provided for them. Shelter, Medical Care, Food, and Clothing. This is how the Feds can make the claim that there's no poverty. Anything beyond those basics requires labor. You want to spend time playing Davy Crockett at the Alamo in the Holo-Shed you gotta earn the bits to pay for it.

4) There are still shitty jobs and there are still people doing them. Who else do you think all keeps those sonic showers in the housing complex running. Robots?

5) The Federation economy runs much like our own.


It's not communism and aside from the aforementioned basic living standard it is very capitalistic indeed I would even say downright Randian Objectivist in its economy.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Inn general, there never seems to be much trade, exept from the Ferrengi-bar and a clothing-shop in Deep Space Nine. Even though the humans have abandoned money, its possible to get "gold-pressed latinum" and trade with the Ferrengi it seems.

I suspect Quark's alcohol sales were nothing more than an elaborite quid pro quo exchange of free drink for free rent. Bashir and O'brien probably drew down from a common sham expense account set up by Sisko.

I don't know if the Jadzia/Worf wedding cateroring was made using personal or station resources. A lot the bloodwine involved Martok, which wasn't a problem since Klingons probably still use money.