Transwarp

[Timo]

There is no connect between who the timevillain is and what sort of damage he does, though. Somebody from the deep past could come and destroy the timeline, or somebody from the deep future could do that. And the timecops wouldn't even have any means of knowing who the villain is, not until they do a lot of footwork with their own time machines!

Let's simplify the scenarios as much as possible... Let's have three distinct timepoints where the villain of unknown origin alters the past:

T1 = before the founding of the DTI, say, in the 12th century
T2 = after the founding of the DTI but before the DTI gets time machines of some sufficient potency level that makes them comfortable with facing all adversaries, say, in the 25th century
T3 = after the DTI gets omnipotent, say, in the 34th century

Let's also say that the meddling not just makes the timevillain wealthy and powerful but also objectively does damage, say, with the villain enslaving everybody and torturing them thrice every afternoon. It's a present the DTI is not happy with.

Let's also say that the altering does not erase the DTI out of existence altogether. They still have time machines. They just notice that the Federation is currently being ruled by a guy who tortures everybody by reading them chapters of his book "How I Reduced the DTI from Timecops to Losers Who Have to Clean Toilets With Their Tongues or be Whipped to Death, With Just One Audacious Time-Tampering Trick".

Now, casual reading of history books (including that one!) reveals that this tampering trick was performed at timepoint T1, T2 or T3. Which of these are actionable by the DTI?

Or does it depend on where/when exactly the DTI awakens to the situation? (Feel free to label this timepoint with the T1/T2/T3 nomenclature)

Or does it depend on where/when exactly the villain comes from? (Again, T1/T2/T3)

What does it depend on?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JES]

Well, if the villain came from way before the DTI was ever formed, there wouldn't even be a Federation, let alone Starfleet's Temporal Force in the first place, and we wouldn't even be talking about it, because the villain's origin would have been from before the Federation even had a chance to form.

This is exactly the case with the Borg Temporal Incursion of 2373-2063, which nearly wiped out the Federation, because DTI wasn't strong enough to go up against the Borg (their equipment at the time probably wasn't much better than Picard's crew had, and many were assimilated), and to the Time Fleet of the future, this incursion had already been solved by Picard and his crew, so there was no need to go back and interfere, because if Picard and the E-E's crew had failed in their counter-incursion, then the Federation and the Time Fleet wouldn't have existed anyways, and hence there wouldn't be anyone to go back and do much about it (the crew by the Guardian outpost probably would have tried, since the Guardian would have told them if Picard's crew had failed to restore the past, but they probably would have failed, and gotten themselves assimilated anyways).

If the villain's origin is from the same time as Starfleet's DTI/Time Force,/whatever, then they are obligated to stop them, because they don't want this villain erasing them or the Federation that they serve, which any self-respecting villain wants to probably replace with their own Empire, where they can torture anyone they want three times in the afternoon per day, and nobody is there to stop them.

 

[Mytran]

I'm not sure how someone from the deep past could destroy or even alter the timeline from the Timecops' perspective. If he comes from T1 and starts his tampering some point prior to T2 then that is part of extant history by the time the T2 marker rolls around. That's not an altered history, that is THEIR history. They might suspect that life would be better if this chap from T1 had never turned up, but historical records testify that the villain has not been seen since his disappearance in T1, so they couldn't arbitrarily send him back (since that would change history) nor could they zip back and stop his takeover prior to T2 as that again would conflict with the records. In fact, the villain's actions may be what led to the formation of the TC brigade in the first place!

Now, if the villain came from some while after T2 and travelled back in time to shortly before T2 to begin his Reign Of Evil, then that might conceiveably alter the present in the manner you describe with death, torture etc. However, before the timeline had a chance to change then the Timecops at T2 would respond to the villain passing back through their timestream and send back sufficient teams to intercept him. The authorities at point T3 would take no action since all these incursions (and their inevitable outcome) happen in the past, from their perspective.

Alternatively, if the villain comes from T3 and went back to T2 then the Timecops at T2 would not be aware of the changes in the timeline, since theirs and the villain's flow of time would proceed at the same pace. However, Timecops in T3 would notice the villain exiting their own time zone and doubtless travel back to stop him.

If the villain comes from T3 and went back to T1 to set up his evil empire, he would have been detected by the TC sensors in T2 as he passed back through the time stream. However, the time sensors at T3 would also be aware of the villain, since he originated from their point in the timestream. In this scenario not just one but maybe two covert teams from two different time periods would converge on the villain to disrupt his plans.

"No changing the past for you today, sonny!"

 

[Ithekro]

All points in time are acceptible by Timefleet and to a lesser extent by DTI (depending on if they have the ability to time travel).

The qualifier for Timefleet to interfere is that the alteration in time is not in their historical record or is caused by someone or something from their own time or later. After DTI has a definative list of all historical events and all previous time travel incidents. At which point the Prime Directive comes into play. Timefleet cannon interfere in the normal development of civilizations throughout time, nor change the course of historical events.

Time travel incidents that are recorded by the DTI count as historical events. They happened. Regardless of when in time they happened or what order the events took place. The are history and history is not to be changed per the Prime Directive.

Incidents that are not recorded by the DTI are not historical, and thus can be acted upon by Timefleet. There is a danger that such tampering with time could have dire effects on the "past, present, and future" of the Federation, but that is where the Prime Directive comes in and the commanding officer has to choose how to deal with the situation, just like starship captains of the 23rd century. They could choose not to interfere and alow the event to resolve itself. Sometimes it does, and other times some other Timefleet captain will have to clean up the mess (or the original one will be forced to loop around again in time and correct their own mistake). Other times the incident will resolve itself and be found to be a historical incident that was just not known to have had a time travel element to it prior to this Timefleet observation.

Any incident that originates from after the formation of DTI's "definative" historical record by default can be countered by Timefleet, as it is also not history. Well not until after the Timefleet interferes, then it will be history.

(By the end of the 51st century the multi-galactic based decendant of the Timefleet has adopted the phrase "Timey-Whimey' to explain how time can be both linear and yet non-linear at the same time.)

 

[SicOne]

Author Christopher Bennett is a frequent participant over in Trek Lit, and wrote the DTI books. If you initiate a discussion of this topic over there, he'll be able to clarify things.

It's been awhile since I've read any of the DTI books, but IIRC there was a situation where the 24th century timecops were going to come down on Janeway for the events in "Endgame", only to be called into their boss's office where they found some of their counterparts from a few hundred years in the future, and were told that the events of "Endgame" were a required part of their counterparts history and the only future timeline that DIDN'T result in the Borg assimilating everything and everyone by their counterparts time.

 

[JES]

That seems to indicate that the Borg weren't defeated by the time of Future Admiral Janeway's timeline, even with the transphasic torpedoes and deployable armor seemingly being standard fleet equipment by then, nor did it give Starfleet, let alone it's allies, the edge to fend the Borg off.

Maybe it fended them off for a while, but the Borg Collective likely stayed out of Starfleet's reach before they could finish them off, and because the Caeliar didn't absorb the Collective, eventually adapted to the new equipment, and assimilated everyone.

It would appear that crippling the collective temporarily brought on just the right set of events to eventually bring the Borg Collective down.

 

[Tim Walker]

Book, copyright 2010. "What Technology Wants" by Kevin Kelly. Book about the development/evolution of technology.

The author made these comments:

"....A gadget begins as a junky prototype and then progresses to something that barely works...."

and....

"....The haves (the early adopters) overpay for crummy early editions of technology that barely work. They purchase flaky first editions...."

 

[Ithekro]

Makes one wonder about USS Excelsior.

But we know in the end she was a fine ship and her class lasted around a century in service. Actually able to still fight on the front lines on the Dominion War in numbers.

Was its transwarp drive a junky prototype? Did it work? Was transwarp drive a reality already, but not viable for standard starships? Was "transwarp drive" an excuse to build a bigger starship to intimidate the Romulans and Klingons?

 

[Timo]

One wonders indeed. What if the Excelsior class as such was an older type of vessel in ST3 (with a registry lower than the NCC-2120 heard mentioned in ST:TMP, supposedly up to a dozen years before), and all that was new was the installation of the transwarp drive?

If the drive was still experimental, it would make little sense to build a whole big starship as its testbed. I mean, we can repeat the arguments downthread and in earlier threads: perhaps the final, or even initial, test rig would have to be big in order to properly fire up the new drive. But it wouldn't have to be a big starship complete with shuttle hangars and phaser banks and other mission gear that was clearly already in place in ST3.

But if the Excelsior already existed, and merely underwent a refit to transwarp specs...

(In that case, it would be a bit odd for our heroes to make those ST6 comments about her being such a big ship. Perhaps the novelty value of the size wouldn't wear out yet in just the couple of years between ST3 and ST6 - but surely in the several decades of putative Excelsior existence...?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

If the Excelsior is an older ship, maybe it spent most of its life out on the fringes of Federation space as a long range explorer (like the Galaxy Class was supposed to do). Resupply and refits may have been handled out there as well.That being the case, most of Starfleet personnel has probably never seen the giant ship up close, hence the awe (the Excelsior may have been the only one or two in her class as well, adding to the rarity of seeing it in person)

 

[Tim Walker]

The method used by Voyager made the ship an experimental craft. This seems just barely within reach of Federation technology, and certainly came across as clunky, finicky, limited, and just barely workable.

 

[Tim Walker]

I think that after Voyager, the next slipstream ships would be (barely workable) test beds, rather than refined designs.

 

[Ithekro]

One of the more interesting parts of CrazyEddie's NuTrek Starfleet book project is the two seperate paths in Star Fleet. You have the main path with normal warp drives like we are use to seeing, and then you have the transwarp drive ships like USS Kelvin with the giant warp necelle(s) that seem to behave differently.

If this pattern remained in the regular universe and it was decided that the older transwarp ships were resource or manpower intensive for their function, it would be that the Great Experiment was to design a transwarp drive that was small enough to fit a regular starship, or perhaps to combine it within a standard warp drive housing so both could be used. USS Excelsior being the first smaller starship to have transwarp drive (Scotty not believing it because as far as he's concerned a transwarp nacelle is huge and "ample", and certainly wouldn't fit into those wee units no matter how long they are). That Excelsior was still a big ship wasn't the problem. She was just impressive by the time Enterprise was to retire compared to the old tech transwarp ships like USS Kelvin and larger than the standard cruisers of the age (Constitutions, Mirandas, and Constellations)

 

[Tim Walker]

Television series Through The Wormhole, narrated by Morgan Freeman.

Episode "Can we travel faster than light?"

One of the topics discussed (besides wormholes) was cosmic strings-wrinkles in space/time left over from the Big Bang. It is postulated that the speed of light could be greatly exceeded along these strings-which by now may be billions of light years long.

Star Trek: Super Highway