Transwarp

[Ithekro]

Temporal Prime Directive. If it happened before they were fully formed (and at least on villain is from after that) than they cannot interfere with the course of historical events, as it already happened that way as far as DTI is concerned. Where they can interfere is if someone from their temporal line or associated lines of time interfere in events in the past (and possibly future).

As for the attempt to get around the problem by getting members from before the founding of the DTI, that would not be functional, as the farthest one forward would still be interfering with time and thus subject to the Timefleet dealing with it.

Thus you have agents messing with Archer's time because someone from their time (or at least their viable range) was messing with history. It is however possible to mess up on a temporal mission to correct problems (just as the Doctor in the TARDIS). So DTI and the Timefleet sort things out...more or less. They follow Starfleet precidents on time travel. The likes of Kirk, Picard, and Sisko all would fix things...more or less. Janeway mainly ran into Timefleet and Archer into agents and a Temporal Cold War. These agents and officers did try to fix things...in a Starfleet "more or less" kind of way.

 

[Timo]

If it happened before they were fully formed (and at least on villain is from after that) than they cannot interfere with the course of historical events, as it already happened that way as far as DTI is concerned.

What does "before" mean there? Let's say DTI is formed; two weeks later a villain steals one of their time cruisers and goes back four weeks, and alters the past there. Was this "before" and is the DTI powerless to do anything? If so, where's the sense in that?

The DTI supposedly keeps the present as it ought to be. That can only be done by guarding the past; there's no point in guarding the future, as it is in flux and won't affect the present. But guarding the past can't work if the DTI artificially limits itself to things affecting only the timespan between the present and the founding date of the DTI.

As for the attempt to get around the problem by getting members from before the founding of the DTI, that would not be functional, as the farthest one forward would still be interfering with time and thus subject to the Timefleet dealing with it.

But the forward guy could stay clean, doing nothing against the law (even when the villains around him did all sorts of evil), and the DTI agents would go to jail for wrongful arrest.

It just doesn't make any sense to set up artificial limitations like that, because they serve no purpose. All they do is offer the villains legal loopholes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

"Before" in this context means that the incursion originates from before the DTI's juristiction begins. If the villian steals a time machine in say 2710 and changes something in 2245 but say the DTI was formed in 2709, than they can stop the villian. But if a villian from 2373 used some alien temporal device to mess with something in 2268, than the DTI can't interfere as the incursion started before they existed, and thus already happened as far as they are concerned.

As for the other part, they would have to stop the incursion even if the guy from the future did nothing wrong as they event would not happen without that time machine from DTI's time period, thus the event is their problem. Now if the time travel device was from the past, DTI would not get involved unless it travels forward in time to their era. Traveling forward into DTI's era seems to violate the Temporal Prime Directive.

Time travel is one of those things that causes headaches since it is not clear what is and what is not possible (to us). Past, present, and future do not mean quite as much to those that can move through time at will. Groups like the DTI and Timefleet would have rules as to what they can do and what they cannot do (and what they shouldn't do but do anyway).

The Temporal Prime Directive would be similar to Starfleet's Prime Directive. Don't interfere in the natural progression of a culture in time. This seems would mean that if the time travel event started from a time before the DTI could actually do anything would be something they would not interfere as it already happened as far as they are concerned. If the event started from after they could do something, than they would be required to interfere or prevent interference by other parties. If things move into their time from the past, they can check if the incident was suppose to happen or not as the outcome has not happened yet until the traveler leave the future, thus DTI can stop it,or see what would change. If nothing of importance happened from this time travel incident, than DTI can ignore it and let it happen, as they would already know what happened. If the incident is not on record, than they stop it, because that must have been what happened, or what will happen.

 

[Timo]

It's a big "if" whether time-meddling that takes place entirely before the founding of the DTI could be interpreted as being part of the history of the DTI.

Quite regardless of the origin of the meddling, it will alter the present of the DTI, by altering the prehistory of the DTI. If that prehistory is altered twice a week by various meddlers, so that history wobbles madly, how can all these different pasts be "natural" for the DTI? Surely many of them will result in a present where there is no DTI, and/or in a present where things are contrary to the ideals harbored by the DTI and its personnel...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

The practical implication is that whenever DTI is founded would have all the the various temporal incidents that happened prior to their existance (both starting point, full incident, and ending points of the incidents) would have been resolved for their own timeline's point of view, and to use a Doctor Who term, become a Fixed Point. The DTI will always happen at this time and changing it will destroy the universe and in theory can't be done. All the previous time travel incidents are considered history and regardless of how many times the past was changed in those incidents, the end result and the various loops have become a fixed point of their own. History...the thing that one cannot change one line of (again to borrow from the Doctor).

Thus everything already happened for the DTI. Their job would be to protect the past from incursions originating after they are established because those are no long fixed points and can be changed. Thus while you have people from DTI log what Sisko did in the past on Station K7, they don't directly interfere with the incident (possibly due to the lack of time travel equipment in the mid to late 24th century). You don't have anyone from DTI interfere with any of Kirk's or Picard's time travels. When Timefleet shows up on Voyager, it is because the incidents originated from their own time period. Similarly with the Temporal Cold War. It was other races from within the DTI/Timefleet's time periods messing with time and thus they could interfere to a limited extent (a Cold War assumes there are some greater extent to the rules of time travel that we can imagine).

 

[JES]

Yeah, exactly. There was anything that the DTI could do about the Borg temporal incursion incident, because the Borg did so before Starfleet or the DTI had the ability detect and/or counter the incursion, and go back and destroy that Borg Sphere before it could cause any damage.
Even if the DTI existed in 2373, they might have had timeships (there is the fanon Lynx class for example), but they probably wouldn't've had the high-tech gadgetry to pinpoint detect the incursion, let alone have the temporal bubble shields to protect them from the effects of the incursion, namely their ancestors being assimilated along with the rest of Earth, and the whole department being temporally overwritten from the changes to the timeline that the Borg made.

According to Memory Beta, the DTI was established in 2270, but all they could do was use the Guardian of Forever to make a post-incursion investigation into 2063. It is also stated on Memory Beta that agents were posted on the planet of the Guardian of Forever, which probably would've protected them against the changes that the Borg made, similar to when McCoy accidentally changed the timeline, but even if the agents had an armory in their outpost, there was likely nothing they could do against the Borg, since to would just adapt heir weaponry, and assimilate them, if the agents tried anything. It is likely the best that the agents had posted on the planet with them was a runabout, and I'm not even sure that would fit through the Guardian.

 

[Nebusj]

Yeah, exactly. There was anything that the DTI could do about the Borg temporal incursion incident, because the Borg did so before Starfleet or the DTI had the ability detect and/or counter the incursion, and go back and destroy that Borg Sphere before it could cause any damage.

Again, why even have time cops if they can't travel in time? And apparently can't detect history-tampering, or won't do anything about it if they do?

 

[Ithekro]

So that once you do have it, and you know it can spread, you stop more incidents from happening that is the fault of technology catching up to time travel. To prevent future incidents, rather than ones that "from your own point of view" already happened. Again, Prime Directive. Do not interfere with the course of history as it is known to the Federation. To them, the fact that the Borg traveled back in time and stopped First Contact followed by Picard's Enterprise going back to prevent their interference is considered history. It all happened and was resolved.

In turn, the 29th century Timefleet recorded an incident were USS Voyager somehow causes a massive explosion in their time and send a ship to prevent it, which it fact causes the events to take place. Voyager manages to solve the problem, at which point Timefleet again sends a ship. This time to recover their lost man and put Voyager back in the Delta Quadrent where she is suppose to be. Timefleet interfere because it effects an era after time travel is invented, and thus is within their rules.

Timefleet also investigates the destruction of USS Voyager from a time traveling incident originating in their time. They didn't investigate the Krenim and their Timeship even though it was wiping out species to change the course of the local Delta Quadrant. Why? Because that had been started and resolved before the Federation had time travel equipment, thus it all already happened and was resolved.

They can prevent time travel incidents that start because of their technology or are a result of other races interfering in the past as long as the incident either originates or at some point involves a point in time after the Federation gains reliable time travel.


As for why have the DTI in Sisko's time? Probably to record changes to the timeline and get a baseline for what they will consider the normal course of events once time travel technology is practical (rather than accidental or requiring slingshot effects to work, or the Guardian of Forever.) They probably could do something, but it might require enough of a change to warrent using the Guardian of Forever, as using it has proven to be quite dangerous.

In looking at it, transwarp drive is probably easier to understand.

 

[B.J.]

I'm starting to think that First Contact wouldn't have actually happened *without* the Borg's influence, so the DTI looked the other way for that incident. It's possible, for one speculative example, that Geordi's engineers rebuilt the drive *too* well, as it would have exploded in the original configuration. Or any number of things that didn't happen exactly right.

 

[Mytran]

I tend to interpret the events of FC as a Temporal causality loop as well. After all, Federation history is riddled with such seemingly paradoxical instances which are nonetheless essential to its history - what's one more?

Small wonder then that the charting of time travel events requires the formation of the DTI, it's a full time job!

P.S.
As to the "Borgied Earth" that that the Ent-E detected, I attribute that to a side effect of being caught in the Temporal Wake, in that it allowed them to briefly view a parallel timeline. Who knows, it may have been the one that Crazy Riker came from - he did say that the Borg were everywhere!

 

[Nebusj]

In turn, the 29th century Timefleet recorded an incident were USS Voyager somehow causes a massive explosion in their time and send a ship to prevent it, which it fact causes the events to take place. Voyager manages to solve the problem, at which point Timefleet again sends a ship. This time to recover their lost man and put Voyager back in the Delta Quadrent where she is suppose to be. Timefleet interfere because it effects an era after time travel is invented, and thus is within their rules.

This doesn't even parse. The time cops are only going to interfere with time-travel that messes about with history after everybody has time-travel, but if you time-travel and mess around with history at a point where almost nobody can travel in time, then everything's cool because it must've been supposed to happen that way?

As for why have the DTI in Sisko's time? Probably to record changes to the timeline and get a baseline for what they will consider the normal course of events once time travel technology is practical (rather than accidental or requiring slingshot effects to work, or the Guardian of Forever.)

So they're a history department with delusions of being Supercop. Seems like a waste of resources to me.

The thing is there are some theoretical time-travel mechanisms that could work, such as by a wormhole with one end relativistically accelerated to the other, which would also have an earliest imaginable date by which one could emerge. But that isn't anything like what Trek has ever used to the best of my knowledge.

(And, of course, faster-than-light travel plus relativity gives you time travel, but we pretend that doesn't apply for the purposes of the Trek universe.)

 

[Ithekro]

Like Starfleet has a Prime Directive, the Timefleet has one as well. They are not to interfere with other civilizations nor their own throughout time. They are there to observe, record, and correct if something is changed from what they consider the normal course of history. Therefore they cannot interfere in time travel events that happened entirely before their notion of "the normal course of history" is set. This is because from their point of view, in their timeline, all those old time travel events happened and resolved already. They do not need to interfere because the incident has already been resolved resulting in them being in their own present. To mess around with "historical" time travel incidents might prevent the DTI or Timefleet from existing as it could stop the understanding of the fundimentals of time travel mechanics to the Federation and thus prevent their time travel devices from being invented.

So the Timefleet interferes with events that are caused from after their invention because that is after the formation of the Federation's concept of what is "the normal course of history". Someone from their time could attempt to travel back and assasinate Captain Archer, and an agent would be sent to prevent this from happening. An alien starship could travel from the Timefleet's time and attempt to colonize Earth in the ages of small mammals (right after the Voth left), and Timefleet would send a ship to prevent this. They would also stop someone from their time trying to give advanced weapons to Admiral Hanson before Wolf 359, because Starfleet is suppose to lose there in history. They'd stop someone from their time trying to save JFK, or warn Pearl Harbor. History has to follow the course of events that the Federation sees as normal when codified by the DTI and Timefleet.

That isn't to say that sometime the Temporal Prime Directive isn't bent, or subject to interpretation by certain Captains. The Kirk types of that era have done some interesting things in time I suspect.

 

[Mytran]

Very well stated. I think it is easy to overlook how much of a game changer having fully functional time ships (and sensors which can detect upstream incursions) really would be.

As for the DTI in the 23rd and 24th Centuries, I think they very much resemble those in Christopher's novels; diligent record keepers and investigators, but in no way able to actually inforce changes (or corrections) to the timeline themselves.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Required reading for this thread:

 

[Mytran]

Yep, got all 3 of those!

Very good stories in their own rights, even though their interpretations of Trek history differs from my own in certain areas (but where would be fun if we all agreed about everything, eh?).

However, as far as the depiction of the DTI institute itself goes, I can't think of a better one.

 

[JES]

Yeah, exactly. There was anything that the DTI could do about the Borg temporal incursion incident, because the Borg did so before Starfleet or the DTI had the ability detect and/or counter the incursion, and go back and destroy that Borg Sphere before it could cause any damage.

Again, why even have time cops if they can't travel in time? And apparently can't detect history-tampering, or won't do anything about it if they do?

To research technology, keep it secret and out of the wrong hands, and hope that one day, they'll be powerful enough to actually make a difference (which apparently happens by no later than the 26th Century?)?

 

[Timo]

...Which just brings us back to the question of why they don't do anything with their abilities. If they have those abilities in the 26th century, then by definition they also have them in the 20th, and in the 1st, and all the way down to Big Bang.

Why would the 26th century DTI deliberately hobble its originators and risk everything, up to and including the annulment of their very existence? And even if the future folks are vain and don't want to share their toys with their earlier colleagues, what would stop the 26th century timecops themselves from dealing with 12th century problems? Stupidity? Obviously, timevillains aren't going to be held back by that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

JES: Yeah, in Picard's day they're more time-"gumshoes" than time-"cops", doing the investigating and solving mysteries side of things.

TIMO: I think the proposed scenario is that

Timecops, From The 26th Century!!!

aren't able to interfere with those time travel events where the time travellers in question originate from and perform their temporal shennanigans in a time which predates the TC's formation. After all, such events have (from their perspective) already happened. They form a part of their recorded history and any interference with those events would carry the same risk as any other sort of meddling in the past - it could invalidate the TC's own existence!

On the other hand, any time travelling supervillains from the TC's own time (or later) would have to be acted upon, but for exactly the same reasons as above - because meddling in the events prior to the TC's formation could invalidate their own existence! Clearly this is something that the Time Cops would have a vested interest in, since they have the technology both to detect such incursions and prevent them.

 

[Timo]

After all, such events have (from their perspective) already happened.

But that's the part that makes zero sense - because any events in the 25th century have also "already happened", regardless of whether they were the result of tampering by villains or not. There is no watershed of any sort at the date of the DTI founding, nothing that would divide "past" in two distinct halves. It's just a random date in the calendar.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

I'm not saying that the Timecops wouldn't go back into the past at all, merely that they wouldn't go back and interfere with temporvillains who originated from a time that predated the TC formation point.

A temporvillain who originated from a time after the TC formation would be detected as he moved back in time past the TC formation point, thus the change he intends wouldn't have happened yet (or permanently) and it would be TC's duty to stop the incursion. Indeed, they would be compelled to stop the incursion by any means possible, otherwise (as Timo says) the event would be an extant part of the TC agency's own history.

All this is assuming that time is malleable, of course (instead of the much more sensible but less dramatic Novikov Self-Consistency approach)