Transwarp hub/"A crippling blow to the Borg"
- Thread starter KyleCHaight
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I think it would help considerably, because there's still a lot about how the actual processes of the Collective work that are unknown. Our discussion about the Queen is one example, because we don't know exactly how she interacts or controls things. Or whether she cares about immortality. We know also that the Collective has existed for millenia, and that the Borg were at one point very much like humanoid races, but beyond that no info has been given on how they "evolved" into the Collective as the Queen put it in FC.
Then you need to watch Voyager because they answered most of the questions you just asked in it.Unicron said:
I think it would help considerably, because there's still a lot about how the actual processes of the Collective work that are unknown. Our discussion about the Queen is one example, because we don't know exactly how she interacts or controls things. Or whether she cares about immortality. We know also that the Collective has existed for millenia, and that the Borg were at one point very much like humanoid races, but beyond that no info has been given on how they "evolved" into the Collective as the Queen put it in FC.
I wouldn't have be able to give you the answers I did if I hadn't done so myself.
The Queen is just one of those confusing elements the writers don't really have a grasp on either. I remember Brannon, who had a significant role in developing the character, say that he didn't really know what she was beyond being an unusual type of Borg. He also went onto say that it was one of his regrets that that he never really figured it out and delved into it on Voyager.
That is odd given how often Voyager used the Borg. You would think there was plenty of time to do that. Also in the Borg issue of the now out-of-circulation Star Trek The Magazine Brannon basically said that she was created because Paramount felt the mainstream audience couldn't grasp the idea of a collective mind with no leader.
He and Moore felt the logical thing to do was to create a Queen given some of the parallels between insects and the Borg. Brannon went on about her being a sexy seductress. Moore commented about feeling guilty going in and messing up Hurley's original idea by having someone behind the curtain pulling the strings.
Berman and Moore butted his heads over whether she was "it"--"the big kahuna of Borgdom" as Moore put it. Moore wanted her to be the Borg leader and a unique being--not simply an avatar for the Collective Mind. Her death would have been the end of her.
On the otherhand, Berman felt uncomfortable since he wanted to use her possibly on Voyager when that show started using the Borg. So they came to a compromise and decided to make who and what she was as vague as possible hence the pointless discourse between the Queen and Data when they first meet.
That is odd given how often Voyager used the Borg. You would think there was plenty of time to do that. Also in the Borg issue of the now out-of-circulation Star Trek The Magazine Brannon basically said that she was created because Paramount felt the mainstream audience couldn't grasp the idea of a collective mind with no leader.
He and Moore felt the logical thing to do was to create a Queen given some of the parallels between insects and the Borg. Brannon went on about her being a sexy seductress. Moore commented about feeling guilty going in and messing up Hurley's original idea by having someone behind the curtain pulling the strings.
Berman and Moore butted his heads over whether she was "it"--"the big kahuna of Borgdom" as Moore put it. Moore wanted her to be the Borg leader and a unique being--not simply an avatar for the Collective Mind. Her death would have been the end of her.
On the otherhand, Berman felt uncomfortable since he wanted to use her possibly on Voyager when that show started using the Borg. So they came to a compromise and decided to make who and what she was as vague as possible hence the pointless discourse between the Queen and Data when they first meet.
And personally I kind of like the idea, even though I know some fans hate the idea of the queen. They feel it destroys the "faceless" aspect of the collective, but the alternative is you have a collective of assimilated minds that share knowledge and thoughts, but who don't seem to be controlled by any sort of hub. Where would that direction come from, in the absence of a hub like the queen?
I wasn't opposed to the idea of a Queen when FC came out. It was the way she was handled that I didn't care for. Her behavior should have been in the mold of Stewart's portrayal of Locutus.
Instead she just pretty much acted like your garden variety villianess. Top that off with the bad retconning of her into Picard's assimilation(I mean really the idea of her wanting him as an equal/lover is just stupid) and the idea that her destruction would cause the Borg to die off--all comes together for a very poor way to use the Borg.
I much preferred the early idea of having Lily being assimilated and becoming a female Locutus if you have to have a face to give the Collective.
The Queen is just one reason I don't get all the love FC receives--she behaves like a wronged lover, she's overly emotional, she spouts silly sexual phrases, the Borg drones behave like mindless henchmen lumbering about like a bunch of Igors to her commands. Look at "Q Who" or "The Best of Both Worlds". Those Borg looked formidable and intelligent like they really were a part of a vast Collective mind.
Instead she just pretty much acted like your garden variety villianess. Top that off with the bad retconning of her into Picard's assimilation(I mean really the idea of her wanting him as an equal/lover is just stupid) and the idea that her destruction would cause the Borg to die off--all comes together for a very poor way to use the Borg.
I much preferred the early idea of having Lily being assimilated and becoming a female Locutus if you have to have a face to give the Collective.
The Queen is just one reason I don't get all the love FC receives--she behaves like a wronged lover, she's overly emotional, she spouts silly sexual phrases, the Borg drones behave like mindless henchmen lumbering about like a bunch of Igors to her commands. Look at "Q Who" or "The Best of Both Worlds". Those Borg looked formidable and intelligent like they really were a part of a vast Collective mind.
Well, the Borg have always sort of acted that way. And what made Locutus scary was that it was Picard acting the same way, cause he'd been assimilated. I'm not sure if that would have been the best choice for the queen, since she wouldn't have been as distinct. However, I do agree that she could have been handled better in both FC and VOY.
If Borg were intelligent they wouldn't be called "Drones". They also wouldn't need to be given commands like "assimilate" and "regenerate" to function. That hasn't changed since "BOBW".
A "Drone" by definition is a mindless being that is designed to follow a higher command.
The "drone" stuff didn't come into play until FC and VOY. Before then just look at the first Borg the crew encounters in "Q Who?". There is something going on in those eyes. They clearly weren't portrayed as mindless henchmen with a blank look in their eyes acting as the Queen's henchmen.
On TNG they all were part of this vast Collective Mind that was the driving force of all the Borg and each of them contributed to that Consciousness. When they engaged in a course of action whether attacking another ship, defending their cube, assimilating technology, or sacrificing themseleves it was a Group decision. But on VOY they were portrayed as mindless drones not part of a Group Mind making decisions collectively but instead were carrying out the directives of a single self-serving emotional leader. To me that cheapens things the whole Collective idea.
Just look at Endgame where the Queen overrules the Collective decision to engage Voyager in the nebula.
On TNG they all were part of this vast Collective Mind that was the driving force of all the Borg and each of them contributed to that Consciousness. When they engaged in a course of action whether attacking another ship, defending their cube, assimilating technology, or sacrificing themseleves it was a Group decision. But on VOY they were portrayed as mindless drones not part of a Group Mind making decisions collectively but instead were carrying out the directives of a single self-serving emotional leader. To me that cheapens things the whole Collective idea.
Just look at Endgame where the Queen overrules the Collective decision to engage Voyager in the nebula.
Why is that funny?startrekwatcher said:
The "drone" stuff didn't come into play until FC and VOY. Before then just look at the first Borg the crew encounters in "Q Who?". There is something going on in those eyes. They clearly weren't portrayed as mindless henchmen with a blank look in their eyes acting as the Queen's henchmen.
On TNG they all were part of this vast Collective Mind that was the driving force of all the Borg and each of them contributed to that Consciousness. When they engaged in a course of action whether attacking another ship, defending their cube, assimilating technology, or sacrificing themseleves it was a Group decision. But on VOY they were portrayed as mindless drones not part of a Group Mind making decisions collectively but instead were carrying out the directives of a single self-serving emotional leader. To me that cheapens things the whole Collective idea.
Just look at Endgame where the Queen overrules the Collective decision to engage Voyager in the nebula.
The Borg are of one mind, the Queen doesn't change that. The Borg in "Q Who?" didn't do anything but observe, you couldn't tell intelligence or lack of it from anything they did. The Enterprise didn't find the Pakleds intelligent but they still pulled the wool over everyones eyes, didn't they? If you saw intelligence within the Borg in "Q Who?", it's because that cube was directly linked to the Queen.
If in the "BOBW" the Borg are of one mind, then what part of the collective gives the command to assimilate or regenerate? If it comes the collective itself, then if the command is given to "regenerate" then the entire collective stops to regenerate no matter where they are or what they're going. That wouldn't even make sense and the Borg wouldn't be a threat. If one cube in the Delta Q. is assimilating a species and another cube in the Beta Q. is under attack and needs to regenerate, the one in the Delta Q. would shut down too and they wouldn't be able to assimilate, thus defeating their purpose.
Something in the collective has to counterman this inorder for the entire collective to function, so they all won't follow the same command at the same time. The Queens main job is to "co-ordinate" the collective, so of course she could override Borg commands but only to the Borg vessels she is directly linked too.
Because if they are all of one mind why is she overriding their decision to pursue Voyager. It is just silly and no amount of rationalizing is going to be able to make that notion fly with me.
The BOrg of TNG were of one mind pooled from the Borg themselves sharing and analyzing data. On FC and VOY the Collective mind became the Queen became the brain and the Borg became mindless drones carrying out her will not the Group's. She became the decider.
I disagree. Compare this to this blank vacant stare or this.
Huh? The Queen is linked to every drone in the Collective. Remember every vessel, unicomplex and Borg colony has a central plexus that links every drone to each other throughout the Collective. In "Infinite Regress" we learn that the signal permeates subspace so is instantaneous. That way the Queen is aware of everything from her lair at all times.
Remember in Unimatrix Zero Part I she was immediately aware of Voyager attacking her tactical cube.
Each drone regenerates when necessary. That is an individual automated thing. The only time that was usurped was when Data hacked into the cube in BoBW and put them to sleep at the same time. Some tasks are automated based on programming built into the Borg implants that guide BOrg behavior but when it comes to events that require attention from the HIve Mind all the Borg participate.
The Queen isn't linked to the whole collective at one time, they explained how she works in "Dark Frontier". The Borg are interlinked, the Queen isn't always. The Queens attention is drawn where it's needed the most.
Of course the Queen is aware of a cube under attack in Unimatrix Zero. A ship under her command that's being attacked would draw her attention.
If regeneration is an "individual" automated thing, how can the collective still be of one mind? It doesn't take the entire collective of billions of drones to make a choice for one cube,just like it doesn't require the entire Federation to make their choices.
You can't determine intelligence based on facial expression. Does Eienstein ever look intelligent in any of his photos? Many Americans thought George Bush looked intelligent at first too.
I don't think you understood what you were watching then. Nowhere did it say the Queen wasn't linked to the entire Collective. All that was said is that they believed the queen was like that of an insect colony--coordinating the others. In fact, the body of evidence presented over the years pretty much indicates the Queen is linked to every Borg and ship. Why wouldn't she? If she is suppose to coordinate them and they are all part of the HIve mind.
What is the point in only monitoring certain cubes or Borg? She would need to be aware of everything that is going on everywhere. We saw her sensing losing voices in Part II of Unimatrix Zero. We also heard Axum talk of disrupting her link over the Collective.
Where was this shown or hinted?
Then that implies she would need to be linked to all Borg to know what is occurring. And if she isn't linked wouldn't that sort of undermine the whole Collective MInd concept. I'm not trying to be rude but I really think you need to go back and watch the Borg episodes because I don't think you really understand the concept. Next thing you'll tell me is that they have emotions.
The same way that there are voluntary conscious acts by us as well as those involuntary ones that require no concerted effort.
I can certainly look at people and see a spark in their eyes and tell that they aren't some mindless zombie with a vacant stare.
No, but you don't have to be a psychologist to tell the difference between someone that is "spaced out" or catatonic essentially lobotomized and someone that clearly has "the light on" upstairs as it were.
I'm glad you have no issues with the Borg. You are certainly entitled to that. I got involved in this thread when I saw you putting forth some rather unfounded and erroneous, in my opinion, statements regarding the presentation of the Borg.--
I bolded the relevant portion. Some of us do have questions regarding the portrayal of the Borg with the addition of the Queen. Those "answers" you suggest that are there for us to find I would argue aren't as clear cut and obvious as you seem to believe. Heck even Brannon Braga wasn't sure about a lot of things in the interview I mentioned. Furthermore a lot of these answers yo put forth really have no basis in the Borg canon. I only suggested you revisit them to see that you might be extrapolating more than there is and/or misremembered certain things.exodus said:
Then you need to watch Voyager because they answered most of the questions you just asked in it.
I wouldn't have be able to give you the answers I did if I hadn't done so myself.
On the issue of whether the Queen is connected to everything and everywhere, isn't "Unimatrix Zero" rather definitive?
There, the Queen doesn't simply react to obvious attacks against specific vessels. Instead, she goes apeshit as soon as there is a Drone she cannot hear:
The Queen was clearly in constant, "non-crisis" contact with Drones on two widely separated spatial grids, units that in Seven's parlance are much larger than sectors. She first panicked at losing just five of them. She would later refer to having lost just a single Drone aboard a random Cube of tens of thousands.
I'd strongly argue she has the entire Collective, Drone by Drone, in her virtual fingertips in normal circumstances - even if there probably are exceptional circumstances where certain groups may legitimately go silent for a period.
Timo Saloniemi
There, the Queen doesn't simply react to obvious attacks against specific vessels. Instead, she goes apeshit as soon as there is a Drone she cannot hear:
The Queen was clearly in constant, "non-crisis" contact with Drones on two widely separated spatial grids, units that in Seven's parlance are much larger than sectors. She first panicked at losing just five of them. She would later refer to having lost just a single Drone aboard a random Cube of tens of thousands.
I'd strongly argue she has the entire Collective, Drone by Drone, in her virtual fingertips in normal circumstances - even if there probably are exceptional circumstances where certain groups may legitimately go silent for a period.
Timo Saloniemi
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