When Harve Bennett was preparing for filming TWOK, he binge watched all 79 TOS episodes. He came to the following conclusion : 1/3 were good, 1/3 were okay and 1/3 were stinkers. Do you agree with his math?
TOS : The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
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I would disagree. To be a sinker would, for me, mean that an episode had no (or very few) redeeming features and I just don't find that true of TOS. There is something worthwhile in most episodes (and that's true of Star Trek in general)*
Obviously what is a "stinker" is going to vary from person to person. There's an additional problem that an episode (or film) may be a great watch when you are caught up in the moment but which may not stand up scrutiny afterwards. And vice versa: sometimes the good things about any episode might be obscured on first watch.
Each of us brings our backgrounds and experiences to our viewing. Harve Bennett was an experienced producer when he first saw the series: I was a child. It's natural that we are going to view the programmes differently.
*Um...perhaps not Discovery
Obviously what is a "stinker" is going to vary from person to person. There's an additional problem that an episode (or film) may be a great watch when you are caught up in the moment but which may not stand up scrutiny afterwards. And vice versa: sometimes the good things about any episode might be obscured on first watch.
Each of us brings our backgrounds and experiences to our viewing. Harve Bennett was an experienced producer when he first saw the series: I was a child. It's natural that we are going to view the programmes differently.
*Um...perhaps not Discovery
YMMV on this, but - each labeled, and assuming my categorizing really matches up to his:
Ep. Title = Score
Season 1
10 = G
13 = O
06 = S
So far, not too far off...
Season 2
Season 2:
G=09
O=12
S=05
(Not bad considering reduction in episode count. That's a separate set of calculations to determine the dip...)
Season 3
(most "O" grades are due to acting being so strong that they compensate for an "S" of a plot)
06 = G
12 = O
06 = S
(A dip in overall quality, but the "G"'s are really "G" and even the "O"'s remain entertaining due to acting and/or plot ideas. Each one is weighted individually.)
Now adding in the others:
Season 1:
10 = G
13 = O
06 = S
Season 2:
G = 09
O = 12
S = 05
Totals:
G = 25 (31.64556962025316%)
O = 37 (46.83544303797468%)
S = 17 (21.51898734177215%)
----------
79 (99.99999999999999 + 00000000000001%)
So, at least for me and YMMV, EIEIO, ETC, U C, it's close but no cigar. What's replaced cigars in the 23rd century anyway?
Ep. Title = Score
Good
Okay
Stinker
Season 1
- The Man Trap = O
- Charlie X = O
- Where No Man Has Gone Before = G
- The Naked Time = G
- The Enemy Within = O
- Mudd’s Women = O
- What Are Little Girls Made Of? = S
- Miri = S
- Dagger of the Mind = G
- The Corbomite Maneuver = O
- The Menagerie, Part I = G
- The Menagerie, Part II = G
- The Conscience of the King = O
- Balance of Terror = G
- Shore Leave = O
- The Galileo Seven = O
- The Squire of Gothos = O
- Arena = O
- Tomorrow Is Yesterday = G
- Court Martial = O
- The Return of the Archons = S
- Space Seed = G
- A Taste of Armageddon = O
- This Side of Paradise = S
- The Devil in the Dark = G
- Errand of Mercy = G
- The Alternative Factor = S
- The City on the Edge of Forever = O
- Operation -- Annihilate! = S
10 = G
13 = O
06 = S
So far, not too far off...
Season 2
- Amok Time = G
- Who Mourns for Adonais? = O
- The Changeling = S
- Mirror, Mirror = G
- The Apple = O
- The Doomsday Machine = G
- Catspaw = O
- I, Mudd = O
- Metamorphosis = O
- Journey to Babel = G
- Friday’s Child = G
- The Deadly Years = O
- Obsession = S
- Wolf in the Fold = O
- The Trouble with Tribbles = O
- The Gamesters of Triskelion = G
- A Piece of the Action = S
- The Immunity Syndrome = G
- A Private Little War = S
- Return to Tomorrow = O
- Patterns of Force = O
- By Any Other Name = G
- The Omega Glory = O
- The Ultimate Computer = G
- Bread and Circuses = O
- Assignment: Earth = S
Season 2:
G=09
O=12
S=05
(Not bad considering reduction in episode count. That's a separate set of calculations to determine the dip...)
Season 3
(most "O" grades are due to acting being so strong that they compensate for an "S" of a plot)
- Spock’s Brain = S
- The Enterprise Incident = G
- The Paradise Syndrome = O
- And the Children Shall Lead = S
- Is There in Truth No Beauty? = G
- Spectre of the Gun = O
- Day of the Dove = G
- For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky = O
- The Tholian Web = G
- Plato’s Stepchildren = O
- Wink of an Eye = O
- The Empath = S
- Elaan of Troyius = O
- Whom Gods Destroy = S
- Let That Be Your Last Battlefield = O
- The Mark of Gideon = S
- That Which Survives = O
- The Lights of Zetar = O
- Requiem for Methuselah = G
- The Way to Eden = O
- The Cloud Minders = O
- The Savage Curtain = S
- All Our Yesterdays = G
- Turnabout Intruder = O
06 = G
12 = O
06 = S
(A dip in overall quality, but the "G"'s are really "G" and even the "O"'s remain entertaining due to acting and/or plot ideas. Each one is weighted individually.)
Now adding in the others:
Season 1:
10 = G
13 = O
06 = S
Season 2:
G = 09
O = 12
S = 05
Totals:
G = 25 (31.64556962025316%)
O = 37 (46.83544303797468%)
S = 17 (21.51898734177215%)
----------
79 (99.99999999999999 + 00000000000001%)
So, at least for me and YMMV, EIEIO, ETC, U C, it's close but no cigar. What's replaced cigars in the 23rd century anyway?
No because the word "great" wasn't in there. Star Trek had its share of truly great episodes (if it were that mediocre we wouldn't be here), then some good, okay and duds. But a third of them are "stinkers"? 26 lousy episodes? For me, 13 maybe; two of them are sitcom episodes and a handful fall in after Justman left.
And for his first movie, he didn't even pick to spin off Star Trek's best episode. Good character, but "Space Seed" def falls into my "okay" category.
Season 1: (29)
10 = G (34.48275862068966%)
13 = O (44.82758620689655%)
06 = S (20.68965517241379%)
Season 2: (26)
09 = G (34.61538461538462%)
12 = O (46.15384615384615%)
05 = S (19.23076923076923%)
Season 3: (24, wish it were 25... and, yep, that ellipsis is in italics just as much as this one...)
06 = G (25.00000000000000%)
12 = O (50.00000000000000%)
06 = S (25.00000000000000%)
Season 3 is still quite watchable, but TOS increasingly went from great to okay, with a slight but noticeable uptick on stinkers in that final year. Would a season 4 have been improved? Depends on the writers kept or brought in, along with ideas to explore.
Note to self: To me, "G" means "Good or great". To do this on a 5-tier system might be fun to sit through, just to be pedantic, but that would become a matter of fifths and not thirds - undergeneralizing is as bad as overgeneralizing, probably...
10 = G (34.48275862068966%)
13 = O (44.82758620689655%)
06 = S (20.68965517241379%)
Season 2: (26)
09 = G (34.61538461538462%)
12 = O (46.15384615384615%)
05 = S (19.23076923076923%)
Season 3: (24, wish it were 25... and, yep, that ellipsis is in italics just as much as this one...)
06 = G (25.00000000000000%)
12 = O (50.00000000000000%)
06 = S (25.00000000000000%)
Season 3 is still quite watchable, but TOS increasingly went from great to okay, with a slight but noticeable uptick on stinkers in that final year. Would a season 4 have been improved? Depends on the writers kept or brought in, along with ideas to explore.
Note to self: To me, "G" means "Good or great". To do this on a 5-tier system might be fun to sit through, just to be pedantic, but that would become a matter of fifths and not thirds - undergeneralizing is as bad as overgeneralizing, probably...
Beat me to it.I use the Philip J Fry Ratio:
Not by a long shot.
It would depend on the audience. For me, there are only nine true 'stinkers':
Alternative Factor, And the Children, Spock's Brain: these episodes are objectively "bad" in that the makers of the show clearly failed in their aims. AF and ATCSL don't make a bit of sense and really drag. Although I think Spock's Brain is enormously enjoyable as the lost Season 3 (deadpan) comedy episode, I don't think that was the intent and so we have to say the makers of the show failed in their aims.
Lights of Zetar, That Which Survives, For the World, Friday's Child: these have some interesting ideas and moments, but if we are being honest are fairly dull and slow moving. TWS has some terrible writing ("Who could have done this, captain?" "I don't know, but someone--or something-- did." - this is from memory but is prob an improvement on what is actually in the episode) and has a Spock that is very amusing but somewhat deranged (it can only be explained as having hit his head on the chair and now we know what a Vulcan concussion looks like); LofZ seems like a one-dimensional 'creepy space phenomenon' episode from some forgotten late 70s sci-fi series; FtW is sluggish and undeveloped; and FC has a slow, sweaty Vasquez Rocks (or wherever) segment in the middle that lets all the air out of what is otherwise a fairly decent episode.
Mudd's Women and Assignment Earth: These aren't really Star Trek episodes. Mudd's Women is "'wagon train' to the stars" minus the stars. It really just seems like someone slapped some federation insignia on their old unproduced "Big Valley" spec script and called it a day. Assignment Earth is literally not a star trek episode.
But I am a TOS enthusiast, so if any of these come on I will happily watch them and enjoy aspects of them. Even the rightly reviled And the Children... has a pretty good first half. Here's the test: If I am visiting my family and see that TOS is showing on a cable station, I will happily watch whatever is on (with maybe the exception of mudd's women and AE). To me, even the worst of these episodes are more enjoyable to watch than the best episodes of SNW, even though I recognize that the SNW episodes would be objectively better television.
But that's me. If a friend who wasn't really into sci-fi and who does not otherwise like midcentury styles of acting and direction (e.g., Twilight zone) asked me for recommendations I wouldn't say "you should check out Patterns of Force." I would give them five "great episodes", and two good but under the radar ones and say if you liked these, you should just watch them all in order (but saving the above nine for last); if you didn't, you should stop. It does not surprise me that Harve Bennett split them up as he did, coming to the show when and why he did. I'm actually surprised that he didn't say more were stinkers from his POV.
Alternative Factor, And the Children, Spock's Brain: these episodes are objectively "bad" in that the makers of the show clearly failed in their aims. AF and ATCSL don't make a bit of sense and really drag. Although I think Spock's Brain is enormously enjoyable as the lost Season 3 (deadpan) comedy episode, I don't think that was the intent and so we have to say the makers of the show failed in their aims.
Lights of Zetar, That Which Survives, For the World, Friday's Child: these have some interesting ideas and moments, but if we are being honest are fairly dull and slow moving. TWS has some terrible writing ("Who could have done this, captain?" "I don't know, but someone--or something-- did." - this is from memory but is prob an improvement on what is actually in the episode) and has a Spock that is very amusing but somewhat deranged (it can only be explained as having hit his head on the chair and now we know what a Vulcan concussion looks like); LofZ seems like a one-dimensional 'creepy space phenomenon' episode from some forgotten late 70s sci-fi series; FtW is sluggish and undeveloped; and FC has a slow, sweaty Vasquez Rocks (or wherever) segment in the middle that lets all the air out of what is otherwise a fairly decent episode.
Mudd's Women and Assignment Earth: These aren't really Star Trek episodes. Mudd's Women is "'wagon train' to the stars" minus the stars. It really just seems like someone slapped some federation insignia on their old unproduced "Big Valley" spec script and called it a day. Assignment Earth is literally not a star trek episode.
But I am a TOS enthusiast, so if any of these come on I will happily watch them and enjoy aspects of them. Even the rightly reviled And the Children... has a pretty good first half. Here's the test: If I am visiting my family and see that TOS is showing on a cable station, I will happily watch whatever is on (with maybe the exception of mudd's women and AE). To me, even the worst of these episodes are more enjoyable to watch than the best episodes of SNW, even though I recognize that the SNW episodes would be objectively better television.
But that's me. If a friend who wasn't really into sci-fi and who does not otherwise like midcentury styles of acting and direction (e.g., Twilight zone) asked me for recommendations I wouldn't say "you should check out Patterns of Force." I would give them five "great episodes", and two good but under the radar ones and say if you liked these, you should just watch them all in order (but saving the above nine for last); if you didn't, you should stop. It does not surprise me that Harve Bennett split them up as he did, coming to the show when and why he did. I'm actually surprised that he didn't say more were stinkers from his POV.
I find this odd. Because the show was pitched on the idea of Wagon Train in space
I would disagree. To be a sinker would, for me, mean that an episode had no (or very few) redeeming features and I just don't find that true of TOS. There is something worthwhile in most episodes (and that's true of Star Trek in general)*
Obviously what is a "stinker" is going to vary from person to person. There's an additional problem that an episode (or film) may be a great watch when you are caught up in the moment but which may not stand up scrutiny afterwards. And vice versa: sometimes the good things about any episode might be obscured on first watch.
Each of us brings our backgrounds and experiences to our viewing. Harve Bennett was an experienced producer when he first saw the series: I was a child. It's natural that we are going to view the programmes differently.
*Um...perhaps not Discovery
Absolutely - I am a big fan of Alternative Factor and Omega Glory, because I watched them so early, and they were some of my first introductions to the show, and to those concepts in general. I had no experience with Twilight Zone or anything else like it, other than an occasionally weird episode of Super Friends (my first alt universe exposure in Universe of Evil, well before I saw Mirror Mirror.)
Went back and dug this up from my last rewatch some years back.
Series Breakdown:
Good to Excellent = 65.8% (52 episodes)
Fair = 22.7% (18 episodes)
Poor to Bad = 11.3% (9 episodes)
And while some of it might be disappointing none of it is boring.
TOS certainly doesn't follow the "one third" view of Harve Bennett.
Series Breakdown:
Good to Excellent = 65.8% (52 episodes)
Fair = 22.7% (18 episodes)
Poor to Bad = 11.3% (9 episodes)
And while some of it might be disappointing none of it is boring.
TOS certainly doesn't follow the "one third" view of Harve Bennett.
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My big attempt to rewatch it all lost steam 7 episodes into season 3 so I can't judge the series as a whole as fairly as I'd like, but I'd say 1/3 good, 1/3 okay, 1/3 bad is roughly where I'm at. Unless Plato's Stepchildren, The Way to Eden, The Lights of Zetar etc. are way better than I remember.
But that not a bad result for a series! It beats my scores for '60s Twilight Zone and Doctor Who, which I did manage to watch all the way through recently. Well, everything that still exists at least.
I admit my exposure to '60s television is still limited, but from what I've seen, TOS is top tier.
But that not a bad result for a series! It beats my scores for '60s Twilight Zone and Doctor Who, which I did manage to watch all the way through recently. Well, everything that still exists at least.
I admit my exposure to '60s television is still limited, but from what I've seen, TOS is top tier.
Only 1/3 is a stinker? It could be worse. According to Sturgeon's law (yes, that Theodore Sturgeon, the writer of "Amok Time" and "Shore Leave"), "ninety percent of everything is crap."
And, no, none of this is objective. How much is good depends on the viewer.
Of the two episodes Sturgeon wrote, I'd say "Shore Leave" is good, but "Amok Time" is great.
And, no, none of this is objective. How much is good depends on the viewer.
Of the two episodes Sturgeon wrote, I'd say "Shore Leave" is good, but "Amok Time" is great.
I think it was Bob Justman who said something to the effect that all TOS episodes were unique, although he prefaced that with a derogatory comment about Spock’s Brain.
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